Things only Christian women hear

[hmbld]

13 minutes ago, Davida said:

 

First of all, she should not be out there alone.  She should be with her husband or, at the very least, under the oversight of a church body in the presence of other women and men.  Missionary work is not a lone endeavor to be handled by single women.

 

This is a quote from carm.org, some of the article I agree with, some I'm not so sure, but the part I quoted here really struck me.  Missionary work is not a lone endeavor.  Well, I do think it is beneficial to be linked with other believers, but to make a blanket statement that missionary work is not a lone endeavor?

[Guest shiloh357]

11 hours ago, nebula said:

I know this was several pages ago, but some things were mentioned here that ought to be addressed.

1. All of Jesus' followers were considered his disciples, not just the 12. We forget that Jesus had a larger body of disciples that the 12 were called out of. [Luke 6:13 - And when it was day, he called unto him his disciples: and of them he chose twelve, whom also he named apostles; ; Acts 1:15 - And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples, and said, (the number of names together were about an hundred and twenty,)] So, it could be argued that the women who followed Him were disciples as well.

The word disciple is really more than simply being a student.  It is also used to refer to those followers of Jesus who took His teaching to heart and made it part of their daily life.  In that sense women could be included as disciples.   But Jesus chose 12 men to the leaders of the Church, to be Apostles. We have no record of the female disciples every starting churches or in any kind of leadership such as pastor.  We have no records of sermons preached by female disciples of Jesus.

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2. Where does the Bible say women are not to be "pastors"? Put the word "pastor" in a Bible search, and let me know how many times you even see the word "pastor" and what these verses imply is the job of a pastor!

The Bible doesn't explicitly ban women from being pastors, but the qualifications of the pastor are given with men in mind. (Husband of one wife, able to manage his family, etc.). 

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3. If women are not to teach men period, why do we see in Acts: "He began to speak boldly in the synagogue, but when Priscilla and Aquila heard him, they took him and explained to him the way of God more accurately," and not "He began to speak boldly in the synagogue, but when Aquila heard him, Aquila took him and explained to him the way of God more accurately" (Acts 18:26)?

Paul was speaking of women not teaching in a position of authority.   That would not apply in the case of Priscilla and Aquila.
 

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4. "Help-mate" does not mean "helper at his side." The word "help" in Hebrew is the same word used when David is crying out to god for help in the Psalms. This word help implies rescue, not assistance. (Don't believe me? Look it up for yourself.) The word translated as "mate" is not a word that we have in English. But it's meaning is more along the lines of "equal and opposite" - like the left hand to the right - but also one who stands before. (Again, look up the words in Hebrew yourself and find their meanings.)

 

Ezer, in Scriptural use in Hebrew  implies the superiority of the helper over the one needing help.    The idea is that the helper meets needs that the one needing help cannot meet on his own.

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5. What do you think of Elizabeth Elliott and the other women who became missionaries and initial teachers to the remote tribe that killed their husbands?

There are always exceptions to the rule; however, exceptions to the rule don't negate the rule.  God is sovereign and uses whom He will for his purposes.

[Fidei Defensor]

My thoughts on women's role in the Church, from my Blog:

 

"Warrior Women: The Role of Women in the Church

There is a major move in Church, with women now leading and preaching. There are warrior women who want to pray and preach. There are some resisting this, taking Paul's words out of context, "Likewise, I want the women to adorn themselves with respectable apparel, with modesty, and with self-control, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or expensive clothes, but with good deeds, as is proper for women who profess to worship God. A woman must learn in quietness and full submissiveness.   do not permit a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man;b she is to remain quiet. For Adam was formed first, and then Eve. And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman who was deceived and fell into transgression.  Women, however, will be saved through childbearing, if they continue in faith, love, and holiness, with self-control." (1 Timothy 2:9-15). The problem is that people don't know that Paul was speaking to Greek Churches that had Pythonesses in it, women who were pagan and who taught men to have sex with them and were oracles (prophets), they were continuing this trade in the church (these women are mentioned in Revelation 2:20, Revelation 18:4), so Paul put this length paragraph upon those pythonesses churches but not all churches. For elsewhere Paul says, "Greet the brothers in Laodicea, and also Nympha (means Bride, is not a male name like many scholars say) and the church in her house," (Colossians 4:15), "I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a deacon of the church in Cenchreae," (Romans 16:1), "Greet Mary, who worked very hard for you(r salvation)," (Romans 16:6), "Greet Andronicus and Junia (Iounias, Noun, Feminine), my fellow Jews, who were in prison with me. They are highly respected among the apostles and became followers of Christ before I did," (Romans 16;7), "Greet Tryphena and Tryphosa, those women who work hard in the Lord. Greet my dear friend Persis, another woman who has worked very hard in the Lord," (Romans 16:12), "Greet Rufus, chosen in the Lord, and his mother, who has been a mother to me, too," (Romans 16:13), and  "also to Apphia our sister and Archippus our fellow soldier--and to the church that meets in your home," (Philemon 1:2). Repeatedly Paul is commending women working for Lord, which is Evangelism and make disciples (includes teaching and preaching, primary way of evangelizing!), "But you, keep your head in all situations, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, discharge all the duties of your ministry." (2 Timothy 4:5, see also 1 Corinthians 15:58). In the list of accommodations Phoebe is called a Deacon, Nympha and Apphia lead a church, note it is extraordinary Paul is using Apphia's name first, in Jewish masculine culture, you always say the man's name first, "Is this not Joseph and Mary's son?" (John 6:42, Luke 4:22, Matthew 13:55) in fact it was insult in Jewish Culture when the disbelieving Nazarenes said to Jesus, "Then they scoffed, "He's (Jesus) just a carpenter, the son of Mary and the brother of James, Joseph, Judas, and Simon. And his sisters live right here among us." They were deeply offended and refused to believe in him," (Mark 6:3), but Paul goes against this Jewish custom and mentions Apphia a women before her brother Archippus. Paul does this again with Priscila and Aquila, "Give my greetings to Priscilla and Aquila and those living in the household of Onesiphorus." (2 Timothy 4:19). The reason is Paul mentions the teacher or preacher first in a couple or pair of siblings, so we then know that Apphia and Priscila are the teachers!

We are living in an age of women coming into positions that have long since be denied them. Many seek to resist this, calling it an abmonination or antiscriptural, but I say then what do they make the Old Testament Deborah, "Then Barak said to her, "If you will go with me, then I will go; but if you will not go with me, I will not go. Certainly I will go with you," said Deborah. "But because of the course you are taking, the honor will not be yours, for the LORD will deliver Sisera into the hands of a woman." So Deborah went with Barak to Kedesh." (Judges 4:7-8), Deborah was a judge of Israel. What do these naysayers have to say about Mary Martha's sister whom Jesus discipled, "As Jesus and the disciples continued on their way to Jerusalem, they came to a certain village where a woman named Martha welcomed him into her home. Her sister, Mary, sat at the Lord’s feet, listening to what he taught. But Martha was distracted by the big dinner she was preparing. She came to Jesus and said, “Lord, doesn’t it seem unfair to you that my sister just sits here while I do all the work? Tell her to come and help me.”But the Lord said to her, “My dear Martha, you are worried and upset over all these details! There is only one thing worth being concerned about. Mary has discovered it, and it will not be taken away from her." (Luke 10:38-42), and Jesus talking to Samartian Woman, telling her who He was, "Jesus and the Samaritan Woman: Jesus knew the Pharisees had heard that he was baptizing and making more disciples than John ² (though Jesus himself didn’t baptize them—his disciples did). ³ So he left Judea and returned to Galilee.

⁴ He had to go through Samaria on the way. ⁵ Eventually he came to the Samaritan village of Sychar, near the field that Jacob gave to his son Joseph. ⁶ Jacob’s well was there; and Jesus, tired from the long walk, sat wearily beside the well about noontime. ⁷ Soon a Samaritan woman came to draw water, and Jesus said to her, “Please give me a drink.” ⁸ He was alone at the time because his disciples had gone into the village to buy some food.
⁹ The woman was surprised, for Jews refuse to have anything to do with Samaritans. She said to Jesus, “You are a Jew, and I am a Samaritan woman. Why are you asking me for a drink?”
¹⁰ Jesus replied, “If you only knew the gift God has for you and who you are speaking to, you would ask me, and I would give you living water.”
¹¹ “But sir, you don’t have a rope or a bucket,” she said, “and this well is very deep. Where would you get this living water? ¹² And besides, do you think you’re greater than our ancestor Jacob, who gave us this well? How can you offer better water than he and his sons and his animals enjoyed?”
¹³ Jesus replied, “Anyone who drinks this water will soon become thirsty again. ¹⁴ But those who drink the water I give will never be thirsty again. It becomes a fresh, bubbling spring within them, giving them eternal life.”
¹⁵ “Please, sir,” the woman said, “give me this water! Then I’ll never be thirsty again, and I won’t have to come here to get water.”
¹⁶ “Go and get your husband,” Jesus told her.
¹⁷ “I don’t have a husband,” the woman replied.
Jesus said, “You’re right! You don’t have a husband— ¹⁸ for you have had five husbands, and you aren’t even married to the man you’re living with now. You certainly spoke the truth!”
¹⁹ “Sir,” the woman said, “you must be a prophet. ²⁰ So tell me, why is it that you Jews insist that Jerusalem is the only place of worship, while we Samaritans claim it is here at Mount Gerizim,^[c] where our ancestors worshiped?”
²¹ Jesus replied, “Believe me, dear woman, the time is coming when it will no longer matter whether you worship the Father on this mountain or in Jerusalem. ²² You Samaritans know very little about the one you worship, while we Jews know all about him, for salvation comes through the Jews. ²³ But the time is coming—indeed it’s here now—when true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth. The Father is looking for those who will worship him that way. ²⁴ For God is Spirit, so those who worship him must worship in spirit and in truth.”
²⁵ The woman said, “I know the Messiah is coming—the one who is called Christ. When he comes, he will explain everything to us.”
²⁶ Then Jesus told her, “I am the Messiah!”
²⁷ Just then his disciples came back. They were shocked to find him talking to a woman, but none of them had the nerve to ask, “What do you want with her?” or “Why are you talking to her?” ²⁸ The woman left her water jar beside the well and ran back to the village, telling everyone, ²⁹ “Come and see a man who told me everything I ever did! Could he possibly be the Messiah?” ³⁰ So the people came streaming from the village to see him.
³¹ Meanwhile, the disciples were urging Jesus, “Rabbi, eat something.”
³² But Jesus replied, “I have a kind of food you know nothing about.”
³³ “Did someone bring him food while we were gone?” the disciples asked each other.
³⁴ Then Jesus explained: “My nourishment comes from doing the will of God, who sent me, and from finishing his work. ³⁵ You know the saying, ‘Four months between planting and harvest.’ But I say, wake up and look around. The fields are already ripe^[e] for harvest. ³⁶ The harvesters are paid good wages, and the fruit they harvest is people brought to eternal life. What joy awaits both the planter and the harvester alike! ³⁷ You know the saying, ‘One plants and another harvests.’ And it’s true. ³⁸ I sent you to harvest where you didn’t plant; others had already done the work, and now you will get to gather the harvest.”

³⁹ Many Samaritans from the village believed in Jesus because the woman had said, “He told me everything I ever did!” ⁴⁰ When they came out to see him, they begged him to stay in their village. So he stayed for two days, ⁴¹ long enough for many more to hear his message and believe. ⁴² Then they said to the woman, “Now we believe, not just because of what you told us, but because we have heard him ourselves. Now we know that he is indeed the Savior of the world." (John 4:1-42).

The Samaritan woman was not impended from preaching about Jesus, "Many Samaritans from that town believed in him because of the woman's testimony (Revelation 12:11).  They said to the woman, “It is no longer because of what you said that we believe, for we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this is indeed the Savior of the world." (John 4:39, 42 ESV). Earlier I shared how the Apostle Paul commended women who had worked hard in Lord (Romans 16:6-12), which is obviously what this Samaritan Woman.  Beyond that, the first person to see Jesus Risen was Mary Magdalene! (Mark 16:19, John 20:14, Luke). If Women were first ones Jesus confessed who He was (John 4:26), discipled one (Luke 10:38-42), and showed His Resurrected Self to (John 20:14), why then would we deny women the right to teach and preach?!

It was women who supported Jesus' Ministry and kept Him and Apostles taken care of, "Soon afterward Jesus began a tour of the nearby towns and villages, preaching and announcing the Good News about the Kingdom of God. He took his twelve disciples with him, along with some women who had been cured of evil spirits and diseases. Among them were Mary Magdalene, from whom he had cast out seven demons; Joanna, the wife of Chuza, Herod’s business manager; Susanna; and many others who were contributing from their own resources to support Jesus and his disciples." (Luke 8:13). These same women are the only ones, save for Apostle John, who where at Jesus Christ own crucifixion, " Many women were there looking on from a distance, who had followed Jesus from Galilee while ministering to Him. Among them was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James and Joseph, and the mother of the sons of Zebedee," (Matthew 27:55), "Near the cross of Jesus stood His mother and her sister, as well as Mary the wife of Clopas and Mary Magdalene," (John 19:15), and, "And there were also women watching from a distance. Among them were Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James the younger and of Joseph, and Salome." (Mark 15:40). While all the Apostles were scattered save for John, the women stood there at the Cross, and they watched as Christ bore the sins of mankind.

There were Women at Pentecost who were filled with Holy Spirit power, "Then they returned to Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is near Jerusalem, a Sabbath day’s journey away. When they had entered the city, they went up to the upper room where they were staying; that is, Peter and John and James and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon the Zealot, and Judas the son of James. These all with one mind were continually devoting themselves to prayer, along with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with His brothers," (Acts 1:12-14), and "When the day of Pentecost had come, they were all together in one place. And suddenly there came from heaven a noise like a violent rushing wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting. And there appeared to them tongues as of fire distributing themselves, and they rested on each one of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit was giving them utterance." (Acts 2:1-3). It is clear the women witnesses and those who supported Jesus' ministry stayed with the Apostles after Jesus Ascended (Acts 1:1-11). In fact, Paul remarks how the Apostles have wives, "Don't we have the right to bring a Christian wife with us as the other apostles and the Lord's brothers do, and as Peter does?" (1 Corinthians 9:5). Contrary to Catholic tradition, the Apostles had wives and took them with them in ministry!


The Church needs to not resist reform. For the Roman Catholic Church resisted Refomraiton, and it lost the chance to purge idolatry and know the Scriptures, and become like Church of the Apostles We must not wage a war against women, for Woman are warriors, in Hebrew Woman means "Warrior." It was woman that God chose to come into this world, "In the sixth month of Elizabeth’s pregnancy, God sent the angel Gabriel to Nazareth, a village in Galilee, to a virgin named Mary. She was engaged to be married to a man named Joseph, a descendant of King David. Gabriel appeared to her and said, “Greetings,favored woman! The Lord is with you, Confused and disturbed, Mary tried to think what the angel could mean. “Don’t be afraid, Mary,” the angel told her, “for you have found favor with God! You will conceive and give birth to a son, and you will name him Jesus. He will be very great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his ancestor David. And he will reign over Israel forever; his Kingdom will never end!” Confused and disturbed, Mary tried to think what the angel could mean. “Don’t be afraid, Mary,” the angel told her, “for you have found favor with God!You will conceive and give birth to a son, and you will name him Jesus. He will be very great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his ancestor David. And he will reign over Israel forever; his Kingdom will never end!” Mary asked the angel, “But how can this happen? I am a virgin.” The angel replied, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the baby to be born will be holy, and he will be called the Son of God. What’s more, your relative Elizabeth has become pregnant in her old age! People used to say she was barren, but she has conceived a son and is now in her sixth month. For the word of God will never fail. Mary responded, “I am the Lord’s servant. May everything you have said about me come true.” And then the angel left her." (Luke 1:26-38). It was Women who supported Jesus' ministry (Luke 8:1-3), it was a woman Jesus first raised from dead (Luke 8:40-56, Mark 5:21-43), It was woman He revealed Himself as way of Salvation (John 4:26) it was a woman Jesus told He was resurrection and life (John 11:25-26), It was a woman who got to see Risen Christ  first (John 20:1-18), and it was to women that the apostles made deaconesses (Romans 16:1), and who lead Churches (Colossians 4:15). The case against Woman pastors, preachers, and teachers falsl apart when we examine The Holy Bible. Another question that should haunt hard liners against woman teaching, what if the only Christian in a village is a woman? Is she sup[pose to just remain silent until a man is saved? Oh course not! She should preach. What about the woman Jesus taught like Mary and Martha, and Samaritan Woman, are they having heard Christ's words and the Gospel just remain silent? Of course not, they should shout from rooftops! Which Samaritan Woman did. The Great Commission from Christ, "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you." (Matthew 28:19-20). There isn't a clause that says, "only men go make disciples." Also note, that Jesus taught Mary and Martha commands.

What about the authors of New Testament? Why are there no woman authors? Well in 33-90 A.D. women in Jewish Culture were second class citizens, they could not teach, or write or read. They had to be instructed by their husbands. Christ was actually revolutionary, firstly as Rabbi he talked to women, something Talmud forbids and Rabbis are told to not even walk same street as women. Jesus also spoke to pagan Samaritan woman, something she remarks, "why asking me for a drink, you are a Jew and I a Samaritan?" (John  4:9). But the Apostles found themselves still in culture still man centric, and so most of the accounts are from the men. However, The Gospel of Luke is unique, in that Luke interviewed all the women, Mary Jesus' Mother, Mary and Martha, Mary Magdalene, Mary Clopas, and more. Luke did this because he was a Greek, and Greeks and Romans revered women, and gave them privileges that Jewish Men did not (Dear and Glorious Physician, Taylor Cladwell, notice also that most of verses about women donating money to Jesus ministry and other details about women are in the Gospel of Luke, see Chapter 8). It is also reported that Hebrews is written by both Paul, and Mary Magdalene, and others. The other reason is that Four Gospels came from Twelve Disciples, one of whom was Jesus' closest disciple, John, and their testimony in that period and time would have been accepted by Jews, Greeks, Romans, and more; if a woman had written say the Gospel According Mary the Mother, Greeks would have read it, but strict Jews at time would have not, so they picked the Accounts that in that day and age would have the most universal appeal and approach to get Gospel to everyone, including Pharisees.

Woman are warriors for Christ. Let's start letting them be warriors and teachers! For there have been many Church women who did incredible things, Susanna Wesley, raised and taught John and Charles Wesley all they knew in Bible because their father was Vicar always away at the Castle Church. Ann Hutchinson lead Bible Study and the authorities in America destroyed her because she preached Grace instead of works (Ephesians 2:4-9). Joan of Arc not only saved France from becoming Neo-England, but she heard from God directly and held Reformation and Biblical beleifs, "Joan was brought to trial before a church court because the theologists at the University of Paris, as arbiter in matters concerning the faith, insisted that she be tried as a heretic. Her beliefs were not strictly orthodox, according to the criteria for orthodoxy laid down by many theologians of the period. She was no friend of the church militant on earth (which perceived itself as in spiritual combat with the forces of evil), and she threatened its hierarchy through her claim that she communicated directly with God by means of visions or voices." (Saint Joan of Arc, French Heroine, Encyclopedia Britannica, Capture, Trial and Execution), and "When the trial proper began a day or so later, it took two days for Joan to answer the 70 charges that had been drawn up against her. These were based mainly on the contention that her behaviour showed blasphemous presumption: in particular, that she claimed for her pronouncements the authority of divine revelation; prophesied the future; endorsed her letters with the names of Jesus and Mary, thereby identifying herself with the novel and suspect cult of the Name of Jesus; professed to be assured of salvation; and wore men’s clothing. Perhaps the most serious charge was of preferring what she believed to be the direct commands of God to those of the church [note: Joan was correct, see "For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus," (1 Timothy 2:5), see also 2 Corinthians 3:16, Colossians 2:17, John 15:4-7, John 10:27, John 16:13, 1 John 1:3, Hebrews 10:16]." (Saint Joan of Arc, French Heroine, Encyclopedia Britannica, The Trial). There was St. Augustine's Mother Monica who prayed for her son with tears and the fruit was Augustine abandoned his lascivious behavior and wrote some accurate treatises (confessions) on Original Sin. Constantine's Mother Helena helped him find holy places in Jerusalem, and perhaps taught him more about Christianity
. Today there is Ann Graham Lotz, Joyce Meyer, Beth Moore, and many others. Some may fear a spirit of Ashtoreth Queen of Heaven is moving, and return to Madonna Cult, but the truth is many of greatest preachers and pastors in history had a wife, a woman at their side helping them. So lets dispense with the idea that Woman can't preach, teach, and lead. For they have been leading, even from behind the scenes and through their husbands, because as Jesus said, "Jesus answered, “Have you not read that from the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female’ So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate." (Matthew 19:5-6)., so then every famous preacher and teacher owes their wife! I would also ask if the two become one, then why can't the woman teach like her husband the teacher? Hmph? Huh?!

Finally, I want to remind people, who made woman? God the Trinity did, "So God created mankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them," (Genesis 1:27), and "Now the Lord God said, "It is not good (beneficial) for the man to be alone; I will make him a helper [one who balances him—a counterpart who is] suitable and complementary for him.” So the Lord God formed out of the ground every animal of the field and every bird of the air, and brought them to Adam to see what he would call them; and whatever the man called a living creature, that was its name. And the man gave names to all the livestock, and to the birds of the air, and to every animal of the field; but for Adam there was not found a helper [that was] suitable (a companion) for him. So the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam; and while he slept, He took one of his ribs and closed up the flesh at that place. And the rib which the Lord God had taken from the man He made (fashioned, formed) into a woman, and He brought her and presented her to the man. Then Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, And flesh of my flesh; She shall be called Woman, Because she was taken out of Man. For this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother, and shall be joined to his wife; and they shall become one flesh. And the man and his wife were both naked and were not ashamed or embarrassed." (Genesis 2:18-25). The Lord said He made mankind, both male and female in his image. And the Apostle said this, "There is no longer Jew or Gentile, slave or free, male and female. For you are all one in Christ Jesus." (Galatians 3:28), "So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith," (Galatians 3:26), and, "Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God." (John 1:12). There it is, there is no gender preference to those in Christ, and all who believe in Jesus are Children of God, both male or female! Amen."

[Spock]

Fidei,

i enjoyed reading this article. I especially was interested in reading this section regarding what was going on in the churches (Ephesus and Corinth two noted) that may have caused Paul to speak out against women speaking in the church there:

 "The problem is that people don't know that Paul was speaking to Greek Churches that had Pythonesses in it, women who were pagan and who taught men to have sex with them and were oracles (prophets), they were continuing this trade in the church (these women are mentioned in Revelation 2:20, Revelation 18:4), so Paul put this length paragraph upon those pythonesses churches but not all churches."

Back to Spock: i have also read of particular problems going on in the Corinth and probably Ephesus church back then which made me believe Pauls LETTER was dealing with a one specific problem to one particular church at one particular time. (Not to the churches of all time for all time.) 

The Corinthian female dominated religious thought and practice. From the mother goddess Artemis to the women serving their time as sacred temple prostitutes and speaking messages from the gods, the male of Corinth was deeply dependent upon the female. It was specifically against this female religious domination that the converts from paganism were bringing into the church that Paul was specifically dealing with in his letters to that church.  (Source: The Apostle Paul and the Greco-Roman Cults of Women by CTherine Kroger)

My further research subsequently led me to look at Pauls LETTERS differently and to not take all his words as being for all time for all churches. 

Again, Thanks for sharing this,

spock

 

Edited April 30, 2017 by Spock

[lemurchampagne]

Great article for sure. We know that bigotry is a sin. As is discrimination based on gender. The argument that Paul is speaking of all women is a misunderstanding of scripture and culture of the time. Paul was speaking to one church, not the universal church. 

It doesn't follow that Paul would say that we are all one in Christ and there is no division. And then later create division by saying we're segregated as people of Christ because of our gender and that's why women can't possibly be called by God to preach. It makes God sound sexist in the process thinking he created a woman to ultimately deliver his only begotten son to the world to preach the good news, and later never intended to call any woman ever to actually preach the good news Jesus commanded be delivered to the world. 

And that there are very obvious anointed women pastors in the world is the greatest evidence God calls whom he will to serve his highest purpose. I think that settles any conflict with regard to what any person could say in their opinion they know what God would and wouldn't do in this matter. We're told God doesn't think the same way we do. And we certainly can't comprehend the mind of God. Which is what is happening when there is a second guessing with regard to women called to preach. 

[Fidei Defensor]

11 hours ago, Spock said:

Fidei,

i enjoyed reading this article. I especially was interested in reading this section regarding what was going on in the churches (Ephesus and Corinth two noted) that may have caused Paul to speak out against women speaking in the church there:

 "The problem is that people don't know that Paul was speaking to Greek Churches that had Pythonesses in it, women who were pagan and who taught men to have sex with them and were oracles (prophets), they were continuing this trade in the church (these women are mentioned in Revelation 2:20, Revelation 18:4), so Paul put this length paragraph upon those pythonesses churches but not all churches."

Back to Spock: i have also read of particular problems going on in the Corinth and probably Ephesus church back then which made me believe Pauls LETTER was dealing with a one specific problem to one particular church at one particular time. (Not to the churches of all time for all time.) 

The Corinthian female dominated religious thought and practice. From the mother goddess Artemis to the women serving their time as sacred temple prostitutes and speaking messages from the gods, the male of Corinth was deeply dependent upon the female. It was specifically against this female religious domination that the converts from paganism were bringing into the church that Paul was specifically dealing with in his letters to that church.  (Source: The Apostle Paul and the Greco-Roman Cults of Women by CTherine Kroger)

My further research subsequently led me to look at Pauls LETTERS differently and to not take all his words as being for all time for all churches. 

Again, Thanks for sharing this,

spock

 

Indeed, my case in that blog post I wrote for my blog is that why would Paul say women can't teach and then applaud women teachers in other epistles and end with "there is no male or female, all are one in Christ." It stands to reason that Paul's rebuke to Corinth was on grounds of pythonesses. That it was for specific church, not all churches.

[Spock]

7 minutes ago, Fidei Defensor said:

Indeed, my case in that blog post I wrote for my blog is that why would Paul say women can't teach and then applaud women teachers in other epistles and end with "there is no male or female, all are one in Christ." It stands to reason that Paul's rebuke to Corinth was on grounds of pythonesses. That it was for specific church, not all churches.

You wrote that entire post!  (Scratching my head)

Who are you, brother?  

Can I join your blog? If so, let me have the info I need either on here or PM me.

 

Edited April 30, 2017 by Spock

[Spock]

9 minutes ago, Yowm said:

I take the 'we are all one In Christ' as referring to our standing before God in Christ. I'm not sure what other epistles Paul applauds women teachers unless they are teaching younger women or children.

When Paul forbids a woman to exercise authority in teaching a man, he links his reason back to Adam and Eve thus transcending cultures.

Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor.
(1Ti 2:11-14)
 

Yowm,

Adam was not deceived?  Hmmm. Let's look at the original sin together first:

6When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. 7Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves.

Back to spock: "she gave some to her husband who was with her...."

It seems to me based on this passage, Adam is the bigger bonehead. He was right there. Could he have stopped Eve? If so, why didn't he?  And then, if he couldn't, why did he eat it? 

Notice what Paul says in 1 Timothy 2: "woman was deceived and became a transgressor". Why is Paul not saying anything about Adam's wrongdoing here?  Wasn't Adam at least equally at fault? 

So, how was Adam not deceived?  If he wasn't deceived, what was he then?  STUPID! MINDLESS! WHAT? 

Honestly, this passage creates more problems for me than not.  I really don't know what point paul was making because it sounds like he was dumping that fateful moment in the garden on the woman!!!!!!

Lastly, consider these words by Paul in 1 Cor 11:

11Nevertheless, in the Lord woman is not independent of man, nor is man independent of woman. 12For as woman came from man, so also man is born of woman. But everything comes from God.

 

[daughterofGrace]

I don't pretend to have read every single post in this thread so forgive me if I repeat some of what others have said.  I wrote a lengthy post last night and it disappeared into cyberspace.  So tonight I wrote it in Word and am pasting it here.

The Bible states that God created male and female in his image.  I see equality in that.  We may have differences, but we are equal.  And both were given dominion over the earth – again, nothing to imply leader and follower there.  They had equal authority.

God states that he makes Eve because Adam needs a helper.  But there is nothing intrinsically hierarchical in the word "helper".  It doesn’t indicate that Adam is in the role of leader and Eve has the role of follower or second-in-command.  In fact, the word for “helper” is used elsewhere in the Bible to refer to God (see Ps. 10:14; 30:10; 54:4 for example).  And no one would say he was less than those he helped.

It’s the Fall that brought Eve into a subordinate role to Adam.  It’s part of the curse God placed on his creation (Gen. 3:16 -- Your husband will rule over you).

Enter Jesus Christ.  He told people numerous times that “the kingdom of God is amongst you”.  The kingdom of God is that world in which everyone lives according to God’s will.  Theologians refer to the “already-but-not-yet” aspect of this kingdom.  By that, they mean that Jesus initiated it when he entered the world.  However, it will not be fully completed until his Second Coming.  So, while we can live according to God’s will here and now, the entire world isn’t going to live that way until Jesus returns to put everything right.

Also consider this:  Jesus took the curse laid on humankind at the cross.  This means that we don’t have to live according to that curse in the here and now.  Since the subordination of women was part of the curse, we no longer have to live with that set-up today.  In fact, if we do, we are not honouring Christ and his work on the cross.  So why is it that many churches persist in treating women like second-class citizens?

I think it has to do with the hang-over from the Jewish tradition in which Jewish men thanked God that they weren’t made Gentiles or women.  I think it’s the influence of misogynistic Greek philosophers such as Aristotle who called women “botched men”.  I think it’s a lie of Satan that tries to make us live under the curse that Christ dealt with at the cross when, in reality, we can live in freedom from it.  And Satan manages to do that through misinterpretations of Scripture with regard to women.

It’s important to look at the purpose of the many letters that Paul wrote.  Usually, they were prompted by problems within churches and in answer to questions put to him by Christians trying to understand the Gospel and how they should live it out practically.

As such, these letters are rooted in the times in which they were written and their contents do not necessarily represent universal prescriptions for the church beyond that time period.  This is true of what Paul writes about women.  Let’s face it – he included women in ministry (check out Phoebe, Priscilla, Lydia to name a few) and he would have been contradicting himself if he said what people think he said about women in some of his epistles.

For example, let’s look at what he wrote to Timothy in his second letter to that young man.  Timothy was in Ephesus.   Ephesus was a hotbed of pagan religions.  One of the largest was that of Artemis.  In her following, women were judged to be superior to men.  Therefore, women dominated men and treated them as inferior beings.

Now imagine some of these women leaving the temple of Artemis and joining the Christian congregation.  Imagine them bringing this desire to subjugate men into that community.  And so Paul writes to Timothy to tell him that he is not to let women dominate men. 

We also have to understand what Paul said about the creation of Adam and Eve in light of this.  Artemis was said to come first and her male consort was made second as a lesser being.  It makes sense that Paul would tell them that God made Adam first and Eve second as part of his refutation of the cult of Artemis.  But did he mean for the opposite to happen, that is, for the women to be ruled by men because they were made second?  No!  There is nothing hierarchical about being made second.  Only the misguided have read that into the statement.

And it is wrong to say that, because Paul told these women they were not to dominate the men in the Christian church, that means that NO women should ever hold a leadership position, including of that of pastor, in a church.  Leading does NOT have to involve domination (although it sadly can and often by male pastors).  In fact, Jesus modeled the type of leader both men and women should be – they should be servant leaders.  He said he came to serve, not to be served.  That should be what all leadership, whether by man or woman, is about.  No man should dominate any more than a woman should.

As to Paul talking about having only male overseers (be the husband of one wife, etc.), we see that it stems from the time and place as well.  Given that women didn’t get to study and learn the way the men did, it is likely that no men would accept women as leaders in the church there at that time -- especially if they came out of the cult of Artemis.

People also point to the phrase about women not having authority.  The word used here (authentein) refers specifically to aggressive, abusive authority, not to authority per se.  So Paul is talking about misuse of one’s authority.  He is not saying women should never have authority at all.  He is saying what kind of authority, i.e. abusive, they shouldn't have.  He's talking about it qualitatively.

And then there’s this issue of usurping.  That involves taking something without permission.  But it is NOT saying that women can’t be leaders.  Women are simply told that they just aren’t to rob their husbands of their place against the will of those husbands (the passage is talking about husbands and wives specifically, not men and women in general).  Again, we're talking about abuse and aggression.  We're talking about improper conduct.  We're not talking about totally banning women from having any power or leadership roles in the church.

Then there is the passage in which Paul says women should not speak in church.  Again, there is a tremendous misunderstanding about this.  The word he uses literally means to chatter.  He wasn’t saying they couldn’t speak in a leadership role.  He was saying that they shouldn’t be chattering during the service, that if there were things they didn’t understand, they should wait until they got home to ask their husbands.  This was because they had not had the religious teaching the men had but now, because all are one in Christ, they are learning and worshipping alongside the men – a truly revolutionary situation.  And they had a lot of questions as everything was so new to them.  If we look at the context of that verse, we can see that the whole passage is on orderliness in worship. 

Then there is the word for “head”.  It does not mean “leader” or the person in charge or the one who gives the orders and is to be obeyed.  It literally means “the source” – the source of strength, peace, security, guidance, wisdom, protection, love, etc. 

Then there is the word “submission”.  Note that men are to submit to their wives as their wives submit to them.  This kind of mutual submission speaks to the equality of those involved.  There is nothing hierarchical in it.  It's about humility on the part of both men and women.

Any one of those topics deserves its own thread and discussion.  And I’ve gone over them quickly without citing each and every verse.  So for further reading, see the following:

https://www.cbeinternational.org/resource/journal/priscilla-papers

http://www.fuller.global/womeninministry/

http://juniaproject.com/

I Suffer Not a Woman by Richard Kroeger and Catherine Kroeger

One in Christ by Philip B. Payne

Discovering Biblical Equality edited by Ronald W. Pierce, Rebecca Merrill Groothuis and Gordon Fee

If we're one in Christ, then we should be one in the church.

 

Edited May 1, 2017 by daughterofGrace
to make corrections and clarifications

[Fidei Defensor]

2 hours ago, Spock said:

You wrote that entire post!  (Scratching my head)

Who are you, brother?  

Can I join your blog? If so, let me have the info I need either on here or PM me.

 

I write lengthy blog posts lol. Yes I wrote that one and 830 other posts from the inspiration and revelations The Trinity bequeaths me.  

I can send you the link to the blog via PM.