Question for jehovah's witnesses

[Wayne222]

1 hour ago, Yowm said:

Actually hell is different from the lake of fire...

Revelation 20:14 KJV
[14] And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

 

Well in the Greek it would be death and the grave. The  word he'll is translated from the word sheol.

[JohnD]

Wow.

We are Body, Soul, Spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:23).

Soul and Spirit are not one and the same and can be divided (Hebrews 4:12).

Death is the state of the body alone when the spirit and soul depart.

The spirit never dies. Imprisonment, in Sheol or in utter darkness / the lake of fire is likened to death but the spirit of the damned lives on in that hell forever.

Sheol can be said to be temporary hell, which will be cast into the eternal hell: utter darkness / the lake of fire.

But the temporary heaven is not Abraham's Bosom but the present heaven God dwells in.

The present heaven and earth shall pass away and a new heaven and new earth (or new heaven - earth) will be created in their place.

Paradise (Revelation 2:7, 2 Corinthians 12:4, and Luke 23:43 the only mentions of the word "paradise" in the Bible) is only heaven.

Nowhere in Luke 16:19-31 is paradise mentioned.

This was a false conclusion deduced by those scholars who did not take into account Jesus' disembodied state when both he and the thief on the cross would later that same day be in heaven along with the rest of the former inhabitants of Abraham's Bosom (the captivity mentioned in Ephesians 4:8-10). 

Jesus' BODY was in the tomb till Sunday. His Spirit was not in the heart of the earth / Sheol but for a brief time preaching / proclaiming the victory to those in prison (1 Peter 3:18-19) and ascending to heaven with those in Abraham's Bosom (Ephesians 4:8-10) before the sun set the day he gave up the ghost on the cross (Luke 23:43).

To sum up...

The body in death has the appearance of sleep (which is why it is referred to as sleep).

The soul ceases to exist (it is a buffer between the two realities of spirit and body and exists only when the two are together)***

The spirit is conscious (no break in consciousness from passing away is found in scripture). The rich man and Lazarus (and by extension all who have died) were wide awake when they died and when they went to Sheol / Abraham's Bosom. 

*** an argument for another thread.

 

 

[JohnD]

And the title of this thread is somewhat misleading.

Unless I am completely mistaken, it sounds more like a question FROM a Jehovah's Witness... 

[JohnD]

Man is incurably religious.

This is an obstacle to God, not the avenue that humanists believe beats the human heart for the spiritual. 

It does in fact lead to spirituality in all (even humanists and atheists). Ask either why they are so passionate against

the thought that a god of some sort could exist...

They point fingers and make excuses.

Then I say, why not also gripe about the way diaper services were everywhere back in the day? They don't exist, yet you say nothing about

them. Doesn't even enter your minds. Why does God? If you are so convinced God doesn't exist?

Man is incurably religious.

Even about atheism.

One of my favorite Dr. John Becker lines on the old TV show that bore his name (Starring Ted Danson) was,

"God is always screwing me! I think he's out to get me!"

His Christian nurse / assistant replies dead pan "You mean the God you don't believe in?"

"That's why he's out to get me!"

Among the thousands (if not tens of thousands... if not millions) of versions of human spirituality / religion (of human invention)

is the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society (commonly known as Jehovah's Witnesses).  Begun about the same time as the Church of

Jesus Christ of  Latter Day Saints by Joseph Smith Jr., The Watchtower was founded by Charles Taze Russell who like Smith and others

found the mishandling of God's Word by the Church Organization / Establishment severely wanting and so they set out to get the Church

back on track (as so many attempt).

Smith, in my opinion (based on historic evidence) was not so sincere and was a con artist till the day he was shot dead by Masons whose

oaths he broke to incorporate into LDS doctrine. Russell and others I believe were sincere. I believe Darwin was sincere too. 

And while they had legitimate claims about the Church Establishment, their solutions were as bad and ended up being far worse than the

Church Organization which at least got the core essential doctrines right...

1. There is one God
2. Jesus is God incarnate
3. There are Three who are the one God

Sincerity is not the key, truth and fact are the keys. And the only way to find and to hold to them is the correct interpretation of scripture

(which ONLY the Holy Spirit can do).

Every other interpretation leads to the Church Establishment at best or to cultism, the occult, or atheism at worst.

Proverbs 14:12 & 16:25 (AV)
12 There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

Sincerely held beliefs and traditions or interpretations do not matter. All that matters are the facts of truth. 

I often cite the baker who mistook salt for sugar in a pie we once bought and discovered the error (the hard way) once we got home.

The baker sincerely believed the salt was sugar.

The cashier sincerely thought the pie was good for sale.

But in fact it was quite the opposite.

Recently a multi-million dollar satellite was lost over the planet Mars. The apparent explanation: human error. Specifically, some of

the orbital braking  figures were not done in metric. Feet and inches cost the taxpayers millions and scientists data they believed was

worth sending a satellite up there to get.

Dare we be so bungling and inept with our eternal destination?

I realize sometimes I come across as just another malcontent, and if I did not offer the solution I do, I would be just like Russell or Smith or anyone

who steers Christians even farther away from Christ than most already are.

But rather I say DO NOT follow me! 

Follow Christ!

And the only way to do that purely is follow the scriptures as properly interpreted by its Author the Holy Spirit (authenticated and verified by the scriptures).

Then we will discover who we as individuals truly are, what our purpose is, and what is expected of us. And from it will come the evangelism of all who will

be evangelized. Then King Jesus will return.

I purposely left out many details because I do not want the point to be lost in squabbles over minor points and personally held opinions, traditions, etc.

But that's the gist of it.

The Church Organism has been hamstrung by the Church Organization for hundreds of years (about 1500) including the half-baked attempts to reform that fizzled

out and settled for fat-free versions of the same bad spiritual diet.

[JohnD]

Jehovah's Witnesses believe the Watchtower to be the correct interpreters of God's Word.

So much so, they rewrote the Bible to conform to their interpretation. They call it the New

World Translation. This "translation" is under constant revision... weeding out every discrepancy

with their interpreters as they are discovered.

This should be enough to tell everyone to run in the opposite direction from people misled by the Watchtower.

They teach that Jesus is not God at all, but the first creation of the Father (who alone is God). And Jesus was

originally created as Michael the Archangel.

Michael, according to them, in turn created all other things.

He became Jesus in their version of the incarnation, denied he was God, died on a single pole (torture stake),

disintegrated in the tomb and was replaced by another version of Michael the Archangel.

Jehovah's Witnesses believe only the 144,000 will go to heaven. The rest will live on an eternal Earth.

They do not believe in blood transfusions (unless it is with their own blood).

They do not believe in patriotism and will not salute the flag or (last I heard...) join the military...

This is what those sincere, friendly, well groomed people believe who peruse our neighborhoods in packs and 

trash our porches with their tracts.  

[JohnD]

I have lost touch with my former stepfather, Norm. He would be in his 80's by now. 

He was a dyed in the wool JW with an emotional tie to the Watchtower I doubt anyone could

break. I only hope I am wrong. He and dear mummy ended their marriage while I was overseas

during the Iranian hostage crisis (I was aboard a Navy ship in the Gulf at the time).

As dear mummy typically did, she devastated her exes... Norm moved to a trailer home and was about to

shoot himself with a pistol when there came a knock at the door...

Two JW's (thankfully) talked him out of committing suicide.

But the dye was cast in their so doing. No amount of reasoning and proof could dissuade him from the

doctrines of the Watchtower.

Norm was instrumental in getting me to take my own faith more seriously. He tried to witness to me, and I

knew in my heart of hearts even then that the doctrine was satanic (which is where ALL doctrines and traditions

and systems that oppose God and his truth come from).  But Norm knew more about my faith at the time than I

did.

I put an end to that immediately and spent the next 20 years studying and reading only the Bible.

I also learned from Bible teachers like the late Dr. Walter Martin that the Bible not only has answers, it IS the answer.

And I entered counter-cult ministries which burned me out over the next 20 years (not from the cults but from fellow

believers).  Believers can not be possessed by demons. We are indwelt by the Holy Spirit. But unlike the adulterated cheap imitation

of that beautiful indwelling, demon possession is slavery of the human host. The Holy Spirit dwells in us as a guest.

I'm sure she won't mind.

My precious maternal grandmother (who had her hands full dealing with dear mummy her whole life) never missed a Sunday going to

Church. Presbyterian. Even when on the road (and she traveled a lot) she would always find a church she could attend and did so without fail.

When she visited us at our home she would always invite us to go with her to church.

We we were visiting her at her home, we (children) had not choice... we went!

I hope she doesn't mind the comparisons here... (she went home to be with the LORD in 1993).

My point is that Holy Spirit indwelt believers can and do ignore the prompting of the Holy Spirit and opt to follow their own paths in most

aspects of life. This is why the Church Organization is so vast and so powerful and thrives on the ignorance and laziness and worldliness of

believers.

And believers who have distanced themselves from the leading of the Holy Spirit can only go in one direction (away from God towards... you know who).

They are still believers. Still saved, but only on God's side of the covenant (meaning only God can save us, only God can keep us saved).

These believers unwittingly find themselves in lock step with false teachers, false doctrines, false traditions, and will defend them to the death as though

they were Gospel Truth. Which means believers like myself who point out the error of their beliefs are stood up before a wall to shoot at with a firing squad

armed with every possible weapon against them (us).

Dr. Chuck Missler put it like this, Christianity is the only belief system that forms its firing squads in circles."

Beware,  when the hand of Christian fellowship is extended to you. You might draw back a nub.

It all goes to the fact that we are not in a godly place on this Earth.

The stage between two eternities. The proving ground. The battleground.

It is the most hell a believer will ever know.

And at the same time...

It is the most heaven an unbeliever will ever know.

Know your God!

The Holy Spirit interpreted Bible is the only way.

[Hawkeye]

On 4/26/2017 at 8:07 PM, Ghostdog said:

so if ur not saved u go to hell, then judgement day comes God pulls u out of hell, judges u and then throws u back in hell?

 One thing to understand is that the word "hell" has been (inaccurately) translated from 2 different Greek/Hebrew words. You have "Hades/Sheol (same thing), and you have Gehenna. 

Hades/Sheol is simply "the grave or underworld". We see this in The Parable of The Rich man and Lazarus (which was not an actual event, mind you, it was a reiteration of a popular belief/fable of that time period).  Gehenna is what we see as the lake of fire mentioned in Revelation.

Now Sheol/Hades being the grave or underworld, is more like a 'holding' area. I believe the individual will not be conscious, but in a type of suspended animation state (whether this is "sleep" or not, not sure). But there is definitely some consideration to be had for it. 

Gehenna is the lake of fire mentioned at The Great White Throne.  The Bible is clear at the throne judgement there are 2 sets of books. The books (plural) of deeds, and the Lamb's book of life. It tells us the books of deeds are opened and judgement issued. However, if you name was found in the Lamb's book of life, you would receive eternal life (which is a gift for believers). Hope this helps explain it a bit for you. 

[Guest Teditis]

Why do I doubt that many Jehovah Witnesses are going to respond to this thread?