What does "works" mean to you?

[Willa]

 

The good works done with self effort and for selfish reasons will be burned.  They are those done to merit favors of God.  Such are those who promise God they will crawl up stairs on their knees if God will answer a prayer.  Some think that saying the rosary will merit salvation and attending church often.  Salvation is a gift from God.  We can't earn a gift.  Even by working in the slums of India.  Without love they are nothing.

[Guest Judas Machabeus]

6 minutes ago, Willa said:

 

The good works done with self effort and for selfish reasons will be burned.  They are those done to merit favors of God.  Such are those who promise God they will crawl up stairs on their knees if God will answer a prayer.  Some think that saying the rosary will merit salvation and attending church often.  Salvation is a gift from God.  We can't earn a gift.  Even by working in the slums of India.  Without love they are nothing.

Okay, a bit beyond the scope of what I am asking. But I think I get your point. "Works" is the things we do.

Edited May 1, 2017 by Judas Machabeus

[enoob57]

Works best seen as in the light of things defined in Scripture 'the manipulation of the created things God 'IS' not keeping' Peter highlights this by inference to the need of meditation upon such resolve

2 Peter 3:10 (NKJV)

The Day of the Lord

[10] But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. [11] Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, [12] looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? [13] Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

Combining The reality above with the reality of what will be after

1 Corinthians 2:6 (NKJV)

Spiritual Wisdom

[6] However, we speak wisdom among those who are mature, yet not the wisdom of this age, nor of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. [7] But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the ages for our glory, [8] which none of the rulers of this age knew; for had they known, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. [9] But as it is written:

“Eye has not seen, nor ear heard,

Nor have entered into the heart of man

The things which God has prepared for those who love Him.”

[10] But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. [11] For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. [12] Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God. [13] These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

The reasoning formed within me toward works in the light of these Scriptures:
The reality that God fashions our hearts according to His Word leaves us without ability to rely upon anything created to form the eternal keeping... thus the power lies in God through mercy allowing the manipulation of the created elements of 'the now' not being kept (as the nothing in consideration of reward)... Except by agreement with God and yielded obedience to Him in the manipulations of that which ends (render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's and unto God the things that are God's). Basically trying to reiterate this to simplify the understanding- That which we have first began in will not continue into the New Heaven an Earth for the former things have passed away and that which is not yet cannot be realized in sensual perceptions or present created realities... I tell the children, that I teach, what God has taught me that the first creation was only one way of the infinite possibilities He could had done creation: up is not up because that is all it can be but merely it was one of the many natural laws that pleased God to do such...  Hence the truth in this passage comes more to bear

1 Corinthians 3:12 (NKJV)

[12] Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, [13] each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is. [14] If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. [15] If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire. [16] Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? [17] If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are.

Now this list above yields, according to Scripture, all elements that pass away when presented with the fire of God's testing...

1 Peter 1:7 (NKJV)

[7] that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, [8] whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, [9] receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls.

Leaving a whole new understanding of non-reliance upon  the created elements (idols) but upon God Who evaluates Spiritual all things Spiritually.... thus the heart that sees gold and straw as equal in the evaluations will yield, as far as the world sees, a fool (fulfilling this Scripture)

Proverbs 17:24 (NKJV)

 

[24] Wisdom is in the sight of him who has understanding,

But the eyes of a fool are on the ends of the earth.

but eternal values can be the only considerations when one ceases from the influence of this present world where commentators have yielded to the worlds perspective instead of God's Word's perspective!  We simply can have no reliance on the created things we have began in for God is not keeping any of it... but rather let our works be of s/Spiritual considerations in a value system where no idols are possible, no reliance on things that are passing away- instead filled with hope of a place of no sin, no boundary, completely full of God's Pleasure without end...
Love, Steven

 

 

 

[TheMatrixHasU71]

10 hours ago, Judas Machabeus said:

Here's what I'm looking for. When you say we are saved by faith alone and not by our works. What is the "works" YOU are talking about. 

What I am not interested in is hearing how wrong the RCC is. I know where I am. I get it. 

But so often is see people use the word "works" and I am curious as to what that is. Examples would be greatly appreciated. 

Cheers. 

Works are the fruits of faith. Works alone do not save you and never did.

When James said Faith without works is dead one can easily turn that around and say works without that faith coming first are equally dead. 

Abraham believed God (first) and then performed his work. That work didnt make him righteous it was that faith coming first.

[notsolostsoul]

My opinion of what "works" means, is the things we do that are directed by God, for his purposes.

They are not done to please him. They are done because he directs us to do so.

Many believe this is the involvement they partake in church or feeding the hungry. Donating to charity. These can all be "works" if directed so by God, not because one hopes in doing so they will gain favor.

Many do it for the latter. Only because they are still using "their reasoning" in doing so.

It is not the good deeds done. It is the intent in one's heart to do as God directs us to for his purpose.

We are his vessels and when one can empty themselves to allow God to work through them, these are "Works".

 

[Behold]

13 hours ago, Judas Machabeus said:

Here's what I'm looking for. When you say we are saved by faith alone and not by our works. What is the "works" YOU are talking about. 

What I am not interested in is hearing how wrong the RCC is. I know where I am. I get it. 

But so often is see people use the word "works" and I am curious as to what that is. Examples would be greatly appreciated. 

Cheers. 

 

Where the confusion comes in for many believers regarding....."well over there in James it says my faith is dead if i dont do good works, so, if my faith is dead, and if im saved by faith, then that means im lost if i dont do the works........................................(face palm).

Such is the problem with misunderstanding JAMES that leads so many away from the joy of their salvation as a GIFT, and right into trying to save themselves by "works" which is the worst type Christianity that is possible to try to live out....as this is misery.

James, Hebrews, Matthew... much misunderstanding within those 3 epistles create more heresy and heretics then the entire other 63 "books' of the bible combined.  And this happens because new Christians are not taught the basic principles of "Grace" so that they can become grounded and solid in their soteriology, and instead get yanked off pretty quickly, many of them, right into the dozen or so verses in the NT that when taken out of context, become a  trap for them that leads them to become  hyper legalists..

So, to quickly look at James, and to get the correct understanding.....is......When you are reading about not having dead faith, the one thing to realize is that James is talking about this situation with regards to people that are watching you......In other words......you are to show your faith works in your life "before MEN".....and he is not talking about doing it before GOD....... So, once you realize this, then if you have a belief issue with "losing your salvation",  then you'll be able to more clearly and accurately "rightly divide" James so that you dont end up a very devout legalist who is pretending you believe that you are saved by the blood of Christ via the Atonement, when really you are completely mentally locked into the idea that the Cross started your salvation but you are the one that has the responsibility to "keep yourself saved" by your works or enduring to the end or whatever other bumpersticker type theology that has you trapped into the idea that good works after you are saved must be maintained for you to keep yourself saved.

The fact is, the truth is, if you could save yourself or keep yourself saved, which are actually the same thing, then Jesus didnt need to come down here and be nailed to a Tree.

If you want to know what damns a person straight into hell after they die, its SELF RIGHTEOUSNESS.....which is..."trying to make yourself right with God and righteous before God , YOURSELF....trying to make "self Right" with God......This is the Legalist, this is the "anti-grace" person who refuses to give all the credit to Christ on a Cross and God though through this Atonement as the only means available to save you , redeem you, and keep you so........And this person will always come unglued if you mention the letters......OSAS.

A self righteous Atheist would say it like this....."well, im as good as YOU ARE, so, if God will let you into heaven, then certainly He'll let me in also".......And its true that there are many Atheists who are much better people then some who are born again.....But when you compare an Atheist to Jesus The Christ, then they have a problem, as their righteousness would have to be equal to His (sinless) for God to accept them, and that is not their case......now is it?

The Self Righteous Christian, would say it like this......"Yes, i know that Jesus saved me, but i have to......."   "Yes i know that God has forgiven all my sin, but .........."    Yes i have believed in Christ and have accepted Him as my savior, ....but.......... what about over here in JAMES OR MATTHEW WHERE IT SAYS.......I MUST DO"""""""

So, and now to answer your question JM,   Salvation and Discipleship are not the same thing, and many Christians do not understand the distinction....  Salvation is God accepting you and keeping you BECAUSE of the finished work of Christ that allows God to accept your Faith and then give you his Righteousness......as THAT is why He accepts you, (because you have His Righteousness)  and never because of anything you do before or after you are saved, as you will never be good enough to be ACCEPTED by God.....And that is why Jesus had to come and die....So that by this death, by this sacrifice, God could use this as the only means to forgive you of your sin, and then accept you based on THE redemptive application of God's righteousness being given to you = AS your Salvation.

After this......after God has saved  you by using the atonement to justify and redeem you, then YOU are now become a Disciple of Christ.... Placed in this position by being born again.   So, now, as a Son of God, you are to represent Him with your lifestyle in a way that honors Him and esteems what he has done for you...(Discipleship)....  But this does not save you, as you were SAVED to BECOME a disciple and a Son....So, your salvation is followed by your discipleship, but does not have anything to do with your Eternal Atonement, as THAT is all of God and none of you.

And this is where James comes in, (Discipleship)  as he is explaining to you about showing your works that prove your faith in Christ that are to be done BEFORE MEN..

This is what your NT means when it says that believers are Lights in the World, or Children of the LIGHT.....as God's LIGHT is SEEN on EARTH by people who SEE YOU = The Christian = Children of the Light.

Edited May 1, 2017 by Behold

[Guest Judas Machabeus]

13 hours ago, Behold said:

So, and now to answer your question JM,

It's was a long post so I just grabbed one line from it........

Thank you for your reply, what I seem to be getting from the posters is that "works" is a term for the things you do. Good deeds if I may. 

Thabk you again for your response. 

Cheers and God Bless

[Guest Judas Machabeus]

16 hours ago, notsolostsoul said:

My opinion of what "works" means, is the things we do that are directed by God, for his purposes.

They are not done to please him. They are done because he directs us to do so.

Many believe this is the involvement they partake in church or feeding the hungry. Donating to charity. These can all be "works" if directed so by God, not because one hopes in doing so they will gain favor.

Many do it for the latter. Only because they are still using "their reasoning" in doing so.

It is not the good deeds done. It is the intent in one's heart to do as God directs us to for his purpose.

We are his vessels and when one can empty themselves to allow God to work through them, these are "Works".

 

Great response. Thank you. 

[Behold]

8 hours ago, Judas Machabeus said:

 

 what I seem to be getting from the posters is that "works" is a term for the things you do. Good deeds if I may. 

 

Yes,

Works are good deeds.......and they are the same no matter if an Atheist or a Christian does them, and that is why they have no bearing on God's acceptance of a PERSON.

If you can grab that, ..if you can get that, then your Christianity will be gloriously free (as its meant to be )  of the impossible burden of trying to "stay saved" by your good works or "confessing sins", ETC ETC ETC, and instead you'll do your good works because you love God and not because you are trying to keep yourself saved. 

Edited May 2, 2017 by Behold

[Guest Judas Machabeus]

1 hour ago, Behold said:

impossible burden of trying to "stay saved" by your good works or "confessing sins"

I agree good works themselves don't save you.