What does "works" mean to you?

[Behold]

2 hours ago, Judas Machabeus said:

I agree good works themselves don't save you.

-

God hanging on a Cross.

 

See: salvation

See: eternal security -eternal life

See:  OSAS

 

[other one]

On 4/30/2017 at 9:34 PM, Judas Machabeus said:

Here's what I'm looking for. When you say we are saved by faith alone and not by our works. What is the "works" YOU are talking about. 

What I am not interested in is hearing how wrong the RCC is. I know where I am. I get it. 

But so often is see people use the word "works" and I am curious as to what that is. Examples would be greatly appreciated. 

Cheers. 

Speaking for myself, works are the things one does trying to please God thinking it will get him to Heaven.   And they really don't exist. B there is nothing one can do other than believe and accept what Jesus is giving us.

 

[gdemoss]

Works are the things we do, all inclusive, non-exclusive and would include sacraments as well.

[Guest Judas Machabeus]

1 hour ago, gdemoss said:

Works are the things we do, all inclusive, non-exclusive and would include sacraments as well.

I had a former Protestant tell me that when they (Protestants) say works they are talking about the sacraments. I didn't want to taint the thread and wanted to see if it came up organically. 

Someone else I think was eluding to that (sacraments) in their post. I always thought they meant good deeds only. And for the most part that's what folks have said. So it makes sense that I would have not made the connection to the sacraments. 

As post after post came in I continued to wonder how someone can say that the Catholic Church believes in a works based salvation when it condemns earning salvation through works. Protestants and Catholic are in full agreement with all of what has been said here as far as faith, and works come from that faith (fruits of the faith). And those works can never merit salvation. 

But it boils down to the sacraments. Those are being included as works and that's where the works based salvation comes in. 

Thank you everyone. I think I have a better understanding now. 

[gdemoss]

On 5/3/2017 at 0:57 AM, Judas Machabeus said:

I had a former Protestant tell me that when they (Protestants) say works they are talking about the sacraments. I didn't want to taint the thread and wanted to see if it came up organically. 

Someone else I think was eluding to that (sacraments) in their post. I always thought they meant good deeds only. And for the most part that's what folks have said. So it makes sense that I would have not made the connection to the sacraments. 

As post after post came in I continued to wonder how someone can say that the Catholic Church believes in a works based salvation when it condemns earning salvation through works. Protestants and Catholic are in full agreement with all of what has been said here as far as faith, and works come from that faith (fruits of the faith). And those works can never merit salvation. 

But it boils down to the sacraments. Those are being included as works and that's where the works based salvation comes in. 

Thank you everyone. I think I have a better understanding now. 

I have a prayer I use to help me break free from dogma and stigmatized religious strongholds rooted in fear.  It allows me to fearlessly be open to the possibilty that my conception of God and things pertaining to religious matters could be wrong.  

"God, please help me to set aside all I think I know about you, the bible, the church, the individual people in the church and doctrines so that I may have a new experience with all these things.  Create a clean heart in me that is a copy of yours that I might be as you are in truth. Amen."

I have been learning for sometime now that fear is responsible for more destruction and error than any other single thing though it also be the very tool God used to drive man to himself from the beginning.  People become afraid that they will lose what they have or not get what they want (spiritually, mentally, emotionally or physically) and that fear drives them to make all kinds of absurd decisions based upon self that later put them into a position to be harmed.  Myself included.

The trouble with salvation issues is the looming threat of hell that is eternal.  The passion people will have to defend and/or offend anyone who challenges their position on salvation is as if one is threatening their ability to avoid eternal torment.  

I take a position that is not well received by either camp.  In another thread the question was posed "Is baptism required for salvation?" To which I replied "maybe".  The complexity of our human position with sin in the flesh removes the ability for black and white to be established via law.  What may be perfectly OK for one person to do is a sin for another due to a misprogrammed conscience.  The Devil has mastered the ability to confuse and confound groups that he divides and destroys whole peoples through the illusion of disagreements where there are none.  They are merely perceived to exist.  Paul said that sin used the righteous law to slay him.

By coming into the world and dying the Lord guarenteed the resurrection as well as the death of death.  He revealed the Father unto the world so that all may come to know and interact with God without need of any other human being dead or alive.  True salvation is in becoming one with God, the self existent one, for God alone is salvation.  And though God never changes, God's instruction does, for God once left everyone up to their own imaginations to understand God but later revealed himself in his son.  And once he gave law because of offense but he took that law and nailed it to his cross taking it out of the way. 

Since the beginning it has been recorded that various men have walked with God.  These men did the will of God from the heart.  God rewarded them.  Jesus said he would not always be necessary as mediator for man and God but that God the Father would hear us directly for God loves us.  The goal isn't salvation at all but complete restoration between God and I.

Peace be upon you.  May God give you everything you need to know Him and to walk with Him forever!

[Guest Judas Machabeus]

1 hour ago, gdemoss said:

"God, please help me to set aside all I think I know about you, the bible, the church, the individual people in the church and doctrines so that I may have a new experience with all these things.  Create a clean heart in me that is a copy of yours that I might be as you are in truth. Amen."

I liked the post as a whole. I have my points of disagreement naturally. But well thought out and delivered. 

This idea of God and me and no "religion" I think is a dangerous one. It's not scriptural to start, we see the building of a visible Church with a hierarchy (elders, Deacos and Bishops). We see them exhurting authority over the faithful (Acts 15, Titus 1:5)

So for me it's important to have a teaching Church that is going to keep the devil from leading those astray. It have its dogmas so the faithful know the faith and aren't fooled by the devil.  Jesus tells us that he's sending the Holy Spirit to protect his Church and guide it (John 14:16-28)

When you remove the Church from the equation you leave a vacuum of authority and all to often we fill that void with ourselves and we become or own authority. Making our interpitation of the Word authoritative. We see this in this forum all the time. Same scripture yet different interpitations, and each person claiming they are right and others are wrong. That is not what Jesus started as his Church all the way back in Matthew.

Has the Church been squeaky clean and without blemish, no it hasn't. And neither were the Churches that Paul started either. This is why we have an authoritative Church with leaders who carry the same authority which the Aposltes passed on to them through ordination (Titus 1:5). We see this authority  through the ages via Councils that were held. The canon of scriputre was not determined by layman sitting around their home churches, it was a visible authoritative Church guided by the Holy Spirit that made the decission. 

So to turn away from this Church because you disagree or don't like what it teaches I think is dangerous. And it's not the first time Jesus had followers leave him because a of teaching (John 6:66). What the reformation has taught us to do is, if you disagree leave and start your own church. This has de-evolved now to a complete rejection of any form of organized religion and people are now becoming a religion of one. I'm not saying that you fall into this category, but 

1 hour ago, gdemoss said:

I have a prayer I use to help me break free from dogma and stigmatized religious strongholds rooted in fear.

Brings all this to mind.

Cheers and God Bless

[Fridaywinds]

For me, I believe that God's grace called me to find faith in his son Jesus Christ. And having felt at home there I repented of my old self and ways. I was baptized and arose from the waters reborn and washed clean of my sins. Now, I'm not one that calls myself a sinner but I am reborn and redeemed in Christ. If I make mistakes I'm OK because my sins that use to be counted against me are forgiven immediately through the work of Jesus with God the father.
And I'm told by God that those who are in Christ don't make a habit of acting like their old selves. Sinning. Instead, we're to be like Christ and see the world differently than we once did. Which is a lot to ask but I think if it feels true then when I was lifted out of the baptismal waters for me I felt like I was brand new. And my old self had drowned down there and been carried by the currents of the ocean where this all happened.
I don't know about others experience in baptism. Now, when you ask about what works means I tell you that it means to me that I serve the mission of Christ's word to the world by living his teachings of love, charity, compassion, kindness, and community with my fellow believers and the world that is able to receive the gift because Jesus died to make it open to them.
What did Jesus do? He gave of himself to those in need. He walked his talk. That's what works are for me anyway. It is one thing to talk about the gospel .It is another thing to live it in the world.

[gdemoss]

8 hours ago, Judas Machabeus said:

I liked the post as a whole. I have my points of disagreement naturally. But well thought out and delivered. 

This idea of God and me and no "religion" I think is a dangerous one. It's not scriptural to start, we see the building of a visible Church with a hierarchy (elders, Deacos and Bishops). We see them exhurting authority over the faithful (Acts 15, Titus 1:5)

So for me it's important to have a teaching Church that is going to keep the devil from leading those astray. It have its dogmas so the faithful know the faith and aren't fooled by the devil.  Jesus tells us that he's sending the Holy Spirit to protect his Church and guide it (John 14:16-28)

When you remove the Church from the equation you leave a vacuum of authority and all to often we fill that void with ourselves and we become or own authority. Making our interpitation of the Word authoritative. We see this in this forum all the time. Same scripture yet different interpitations, and each person claiming they are right and others are wrong. That is not what Jesus started as his Church all the way back in Matthew.

Has the Church been squeaky clean and without blemish, no it hasn't. And neither were the Churches that Paul started either. This is why we have an authoritative Church with leaders who carry the same authority which the Aposltes passed on to them through ordination (Titus 1:5). We see this authority  through the ages via Councils that were held. The canon of scriputre was not determined by layman sitting around their home churches, it was a visible authoritative Church guided by the Holy Spirit that made the decission. 

So to turn away from this Church because you disagree or don't like what it teaches I think is dangerous. And it's not the first time Jesus had followers leave him because a of teaching (John 6:66). What the reformation has taught us to do is, if you disagree leave and start your own church. This has de-evolved now to a complete rejection of any form of organized religion and people are now becoming a religion of one. I'm not saying that you fall into this category, but 

Brings all this to mind.

Cheers and God Bless

I do not disagree with you about all that you have pointed out that is clearly taught in the scriptures concerning all these matters.  But you assert, as does the pope, that men cannot have a personal relationship with God.  He called that type of thinking dangerous just as you have.  

If the position that  believes people cannot have a personal relationship is wrong then those who hold to that position are the dangerous ones for they would be the ones without a relatiinship with God. If the truth be that man is meant to walk hand in hand with God in communion with God all throughout his day receiving instruction on what to do from God but people do not believe that to be true then what is it that is actually guiding them?

Hopefully you can see the dilemma.  

I followed your train of thought that led to a "religion of one" concept and agree that one led in error could find themselves in such a place.  But, if what I say is true, then all those who truly walk in communion with God should be in agreement with one another, as it is written, we are to be of one mind having the mind of Christ.  Even Acts depicts the whole church at Jerusalem as being able to come to a consensus. Howbeit it may be that as we continue to come closer to the day of vengeance and righteous judgment of God that it is as it was in Israel where everyone is doing what is right in their own eyes and judgment will come in upon all of them as it did Israel.

I believe that I am being led of the Spirit of God but as any child posesses the ability to misunderstand, so do I possess the ability to misunderstand my Father.  What I cannot deny is the amazing transformation of character that has been performed in me since I came to believe and have offered myself unto God to be a living sacrifice for him.  I am not alone, I congregate with others who are like minded that preform ministry work with yet others, freeing people from the bondage of sin to serve God through Christ in them.

I feel for you if you have yet to form a personal relationship with God through the Spirit of Christ in you crying out Abba Father.  It is an experience you don't want to miss.

 

[gdemoss]

8 hours ago, Yowm said:

To be fair, when I was in the Lutheran Church, the Sacraments were seen as gifts from God, not a work we do. (But of course only an ordained pastor could administer the gift of the Lord's Supper lol)

You bring up a valid consideration, as you usually do.  I find you to be considerate and having depth.

So as I consider the impact of that reasoning upon the topic at hand, I call to mind that the law was 'given' which makes it a gift.  It did not nor could not save anyone.  They were known as the 'works' of the law.  The law had a purpose being a school master to bring one unto Christ but they had mistakenly believed it was sent to make them righteous through observance therefore saving them.  The sacraments would seem to have the same purpose so to speak, something meant to lead one unto Christ.  To make one sacred or set apart.  The same mistake would be made that was made with the law if the person thought that they were being made holy simply by participating in the sacred rite.  They would be called the 'works' of the sacraments like those of the law.

I was taught a system of principles that I followed that brought me to a place of believing in God and becoming aware of the spiritual realm.  Practicing those principles also prepared me to hear and believe the gospel.  I later learned that the system I was taught was taken out of the bible and worded in such a way that it removed offense to religious terms that have gained a poor reputation due to people who preach and teach but do not touch the works with their own hands. 

My view is molded by this experience.  

[Guest Judas Machabeus]

3 hours ago, gdemoss said:

But you assert, as does the pope, that men cannot have a personal relationship with God.

I'm not sure how I gave you that impression. But I certainly believe that we can have a personal relationship with God. i have a very deep and personal relationship with God. Nor would I question yours. i believe in the true presents of Jesus Christ in the Eucharist (John 6) and every Sunday I hold Jesus in my hands and he  nourishes me spiritually and physically. Feeds me spiritually and physically. The sacraments are not works, they are a ways to deepen that relationship. Experience Gods love and his mercy.

Protestants have scripture and through scripture they come to know Jesus. I have the scriptures and the sacraments to come to know and experience Jesus Christ. To experience his love and mercy. To have that deep relationship with Jesus. To love him and be loved by him. His out pouring of love was not a one time event on the cross. He pours his love out on me everyday.

Scott Hahn coined a phrase in one of his talks and it goes like this:

Both Catholics and Protestants are sitting at the supper of the Lamb. Difference is the Protestants are reading the menu while the Catholics are enjoying the meal. 

His point is that there is so much that Protestants are missing out on. I know Protestants will disagree and perhaps some might find it offensive (no offense was intended). 

Everything that Catholics do points to Jesus, it's all to glorify Him. It's all to praise Him and it's all to love Him.

Another apologist I enjoy is Patrick Madrid and he had this to say to Catholics about Protestants. 

I'm paraphrasing a bit:

The Catholic Church can be likened to a stain glass window of a Church. When you look at it from the outside looking in, sometimes it does not make sense what your looking at and it isn't very pretty. But when you're inside looking out, it makes sense and is beautiful. 

His point to Catholics is to look at it from the Protestants perspective. Sometimes it better to ask question than to give answers. 

Sorry I got on a bit of a roll there. 

Cheers and God Bless