daughterofGrace Posted May 5, 2017 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 136 Content Per Day: 0.05 Reputation: 145 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/20/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted May 5, 2017 (edited) I'm a Protestant. I do not believe that sacraments constitute works. As one of my professors put it, sacraments are where God agrees to meet us. He can meet us in many other places and ways -- reading Scripture, prayer, worship, etc., but he has promised that he will meet us in baptism and the Lord's supper. Those are the only two rites that Protestantism recognizes as sacraments. Therefore, to coin Hahn's phrase, as a Protestant, I am not just reading the menu. I am, in fact, communing with Christ, doing just what he instructed us to do when we break bread and drink wine, that is, I am remembering what he did on the cross and experiencing his love and forgiveness (1 Cor. 11:25). It is a gross generalization to assume that we Protestants don't revel in Christ during that sacrament. Some probably don't, but many do. And I expect that, by the same token, some Catholics do and some don't. For some Protestants as well as some Catholics, it's just an empty ritual. Therefore, I don't think we can turn this conversation into an "us" vs. "them" argument, with misunderstanding on both parts. Lastly, consider this verse: "For we are God's handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do" (Eph. 2:10). That, to me, sums up the answer to the question about what constitutes good works. They don't earn us salvation. They are a consequence of our faith in Christ. Edited May 5, 2017 by daughterofGrace Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Judas Machabeus Posted May 5, 2017 Share Posted May 5, 2017 58 minutes ago, daughterofGrace said: Therefore, I don't think we can turn this conversation into an "us" vs. "them" argument, with misunderstanding on both parts You missed my point and Dr Hahn's point. This was not an us vs them. It was about missing out of gifts God has to offer us to deepen our relationship with him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gdemoss Posted May 6, 2017 Group: Royal Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 59 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,402 Content Per Day: 0.99 Reputation: 2,154 Days Won: 28 Joined: 02/10/2012 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/26/1971 Share Posted May 6, 2017 19 hours ago, Judas Machabeus said: I'm not sure how I gave you that impression. But I certainly believe that we can have a personal relationship with God. i have a very deep and personal relationship with God. Nor would I question yours. i believe in the true presents of Jesus Christ in the Eucharist (John 6) and every Sunday I hold Jesus in my hands and he nourishes me spiritually and physically. Feeds me spiritually and physically. The sacraments are not works, they are a ways to deepen that relationship. Experience Gods love and his mercy. Protestants have scripture and through scripture they come to know Jesus. I have the scriptures and the sacraments to come to know and experience Jesus Christ. To experience his love and mercy. To have that deep relationship with Jesus. To love him and be loved by him. His out pouring of love was not a one time event on the cross. He pours his love out on me everyday. Scott Hahn coined a phrase in one of his talks and it goes like this: Both Catholics and Protestants are sitting at the supper of the Lamb. Difference is the Protestants are reading the menu while the Catholics are enjoying the meal. His point is that there is so much that Protestants are missing out on. I know Protestants will disagree and perhaps some might find it offensive (no offense was intended). Everything that Catholics do points to Jesus, it's all to glorify Him. It's all to praise Him and it's all to love Him. Another apologist I enjoy is Patrick Madrid and he had this to say to Catholics about Protestants. I'm paraphrasing a bit: The Catholic Church can be likened to a stain glass window of a Church. When you look at it from the outside looking in, sometimes it does not make sense what your looking at and it isn't very pretty. But when you're inside looking out, it makes sense and is beautiful. His point to Catholics is to look at it from the Protestants perspective. Sometimes it better to ask question than to give answers. Sorry I got on a bit of a roll there. Cheers and God Bless You said "This idea of God and me and no "religion" I think is a dangerous one". God and me without relgion equals personal relationship. From askacatholic.com "Pope Francis described as dangerous the temptation to believe that one can have a personal, direct, immediate relationship with Jesus Christ without communion with and the mediation of the Church." This is where I get the idea that you believe that I cannot have a personal relationship with God except it come through the church. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Judas Machabeus Posted May 6, 2017 Share Posted May 6, 2017 11 minutes ago, gdemoss said: You said "This idea of God and me and no "religion" I think is a dangerous one". God and me without relgion equals personal relationship. From askacatholic.com "Pope Francis described as dangerous the temptation to believe that one can have a personal, direct, immediate relationship with Jesus Christ without communion with and the mediation of the Church." This is where I get the idea that you believe that I cannot have a personal relationship with God except it come through the church. I don't know what to say. You took one line out of my post and excluded the entire context of the post. as for that quote from askacatholic again you take half of what is said and twist it. It doesn't say no man can not have a relationship with God. As for equating this statement to Pope Francis, I doubt it. He's been accused on this forum of say atheist and Muslims can be saved now he's being accused of saying no man can have a relationship with God. i don't know that website nor do I know what source they are using so I'm going to leave it at that. Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gdemoss Posted May 6, 2017 Group: Royal Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 59 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,402 Content Per Day: 0.99 Reputation: 2,154 Days Won: 28 Joined: 02/10/2012 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/26/1971 Share Posted May 6, 2017 2 minutes ago, Judas Machabeus said: I don't know what to say. You took one line out of my post and excluded the entire context of the post. as for that quote from askacatholic again you take half of what is said and twist it. It doesn't say no man can not have a relationship with God. As for equating this statement to Pope Francis, I doubt it. He's been accused on this forum of say atheist and Muslims can be saved now he's being accused of saying no man can have a relationship with God. i don't know that website nor do I know what source they are using so I'm going to leave it at that. Cheers If by 'twist' you mean 'misunderstand', I agree that is entirely possible I researched several catholic sources for answers concerning clarification of the popes comments on June 25th 2014 and they all seemed to be saying that he said that a person cannot have a relationship with God without the church. Your comments did not appear to be entirely so. You may not agree with the pope but he seems very clear to me, as well as the catholic resources I sought out. I tend to be cautious of people who call my independent outside of the church or religion relationship with God dangerous. When people say that they believe what I am doing is dangerous they generally start to believe it needs to be stopped. Source: http://m.vatican.va/content/francescomobile/en/audiences/2014/documents/papa-francesco_20140625_udienza-generale.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happinessity Posted May 6, 2017 Group: Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service Followers: 1 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 260 Content Per Day: 0.10 Reputation: 188 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/02/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted May 6, 2017 What were the works of Christ himself? He was God with us, as a man, working miracles, healing the blind, raising the dead. Yet, he appeared as a man to all who witnessed him do these marvelous things. Just as God empowered Moses and Aaron to work miracles when they were before the Pharaoh so as to show him that I Am did send them forth. Jesus said even those who were in the faith could do the things he did. If we had but the faith the size of a mustard seed we could look toward a mountain and tell it to move. And it would move. We are to be like Christ in his goodness and giving without thinking of reward or any other motive than that which leads us from the heart. The throne in my opinion where the holy spirit of God dwells within us. Faith without works is dead. We can have all the faith but if we act uncharitable toward others we're not representing the spirit of God within us that is love. God is love. Those who don't have love don't know God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daughterofGrace Posted May 6, 2017 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 136 Content Per Day: 0.05 Reputation: 145 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/20/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted May 6, 2017 (edited) On 5/5/2017 at 11:34 AM, Judas Machabeus said: You missed my point and Dr Hahn's point. This was not an us vs them. It was about missing out of gifts God has to offer us to deepen our relationship with him. You wrote this: Protestants have scripture and through scripture they come to know Jesus. I have the scriptures and the sacraments to come to know and experience Jesus Christ. To experience his love and mercy. To have that deep relationship with Jesus. To love him and be loved by him. His out pouring of love was not a one time event on the cross. He pours his love out on me everyday. Scott Hahn coined a phrase in one of his talks and it goes like this: Both Catholics and Protestants are sitting at the supper of the Lamb. Difference is the Protestants are reading the menu while the Catholics are enjoying the meal. His point is that there is so much that Protestants are missing out on. I know Protestants will disagree and perhaps some might find it offensive (no offense was intended). My response: I apologize if I misunderstood. But from what you wrote above, it seems to me that Hahn -- and you -- think we Protestants have totally missed the boat when it comes to sacraments in general and the Lord's Supper in particular and that only Roman Catholics get anything out of them. That sounded to me like an "us vs. them" statement as you are clearly separating the two and suggesting that Protestantism is inferior. I tried to level the playing field by pointing out that, while not all Protestants experience Christ in the sacraments, many do. Therefore, Hahn is wrong to generalize as he did. I also pointed out that there are some Catholics who do NOT get anything out of them (they're merely empty rituals) while others, such as yourself, do -- and I'm glad of that. I was actually trying to be fair and NOT condemn all RCs just because they're RCs whereas I felt that you were stating clearly that we Protestants are lacking because we're Protestants. If that's not what you mean, that's fine, and I apologize for misunderstanding you. That said, I will not comment further on this topic since we don't seem to be on the same page at all and life is too short to bicker about secondary doctrines. I'll argue the primary ones (that is, the ones that have to do with salvation) until the cows come home, however. Edited May 6, 2017 by daughterofGrace clarification Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Judas Machabeus Posted May 7, 2017 Share Posted May 7, 2017 10 hours ago, daughterofGrace said: That said, I will not comment further on this topic since we don't seem to be on the same page at all and life is too short to bicker about secondary doctrines. Okay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Judas Machabeus Posted May 7, 2017 Share Posted May 7, 2017 On 2017-05-05 at 8:50 PM, gdemoss said: If by 'twist' you mean 'misunderstand', I agree that is entirely possible I researched several catholic sources for answers concerning clarification of the popes comments on June 25th 2014 and they all seemed to be saying that he said that a person cannot have a relationship with God without the church. Your comments did not appear to be entirely so. You may not agree with the pope but he seems very clear to me, as well as the catholic resources I sought out. I tend to be cautious of people who call my independent outside of the church or religion relationship with God dangerous. When people say that they believe what I am doing is dangerous they generally start to believe it needs to be stopped. Source: http://m.vatican.va/content/francescomobile/en/audiences/2014/documents/papa-francesco_20140625_udienza-generale.html Would you not agree that it can be dangerous when people decide that their own interpitation of scriputre is all that is needed and that it's just fine to be a religion to themselves. "Me and God" I'm not talking about specifically about you. I'm talking in a broader sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gdemoss Posted May 8, 2017 Group: Royal Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 59 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,402 Content Per Day: 0.99 Reputation: 2,154 Days Won: 28 Joined: 02/10/2012 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/26/1971 Share Posted May 8, 2017 19 hours ago, Judas Machabeus said: Would you not agree that it can be dangerous when people decide that their own interpitation of scriputre is all that is needed and that it's just fine to be a religion to themselves. "Me and God" I'm not talking about specifically about you. I'm talking in a broader sense. I see can be as very different from is. Can be appears to mean we find cases where it is true and cases where it is not. Is appears to mean all cases are dangerous. What I have read is documentation expressing that one must have the mediation of the cathoilic church to have a personal, direct, immediate relationship with God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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