2 Thess. 2:1

[Revelation Man]

52 minutes ago, Heb 13:8 said:

I am pre-trib. You're pre-trib and deny the pre-trib sign in the heavens? Rev 12:1-5. 

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That passage has nothing to do with the pre-trib Rapture my friend. It is simply the story of the Woman (Israel) giving birth to Jesus the male-child who the Dragon tried to kill via King Herod at Birth. There was a Vision of these things in Heaven. Revelation 12 has nothing to do with Past Events.......these things are told to get us to understand who the Woman and the Dragon is. Rome would not have like John saying that Israel was being protected by God, nor would they have liked Rome being called one of the Seven Heads of the Beast. It would have been treason worthy of death. So thus we get a code.

Revelation 12 is all about Michael casting Satan out of Heaven, the Woman (Israel) Fleeing into the Wilderness and God protecting her for 3 1/2 years or 1260 days. Its a PROPHECY........Jesus being born was a past event, it was only setting up the Prophecy where it could be ENCODED.

1 hour ago, Heb 13:8 said:

The Day of the Lord is from 2017-2024 consisting of multiple events within that time frame. The rapture is the first event that occurs on The Day of the Lord.

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For starters, we do not know the date of the Rapture. You have pigeonholed yourself into this thought because of a false idea about some stars in heaven, when that has nothing to do with what John/Jesus was telling us. The Tribulation/Time of Troubles is not the same as the Wrath of God or Day of the Lord. One is 7 years and the other is 3 1/2 years. Thus all the 42 Months/1260 Days mentioning's by God. The Seals start the Wrath of the Lamb.

1 hour ago, Heb 13:8 said:

Partial rapture is false RM. All born again Christians will go up in the rapture, otherwise the body of Christ will be disfigured lol.

The "oil" in the parable of the 5 virgins is referring to the Holy Spirit. A born again Christian will never run out of oil because the Holy Spirit will never leave them. He is with them until redemption, Eph 1:13-14, Eph 4:30.

There will be people who get saved after the Rapture. That's just a fact, if you were a skeptic, and your wife and kids were Raptured wouldn't you give your life to the Lord? Some people go to Church and are FAKES......Jesus said if you are luke-warm I will spew you out of my mouth. 

1 hour ago, Heb 13:8 said:

The same way you laughed and mocked me when I warned you about the Rev 12:1-5 great sign in the heavens? 

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No, the difference is you were/are WRONG...Moses was right.......

 

1 hour ago, Heb 13:8 said:

The rapture is the first event that will kick off the Day of the Lord bro.

Its the Opening of the SEALS Brother.

[wingnut-]

1 hour ago, Daniel 11:36 said:

Matthew 24 is all about Israel in the coming tribulation .... no others

Acts 1:6-7 confirms this truth .... the first disciples were Israelites

The other scriptures of a similar nature like Luke 21 are the same

All about Israel in the coming tribulation .... still future

The Lord gives no dating [2 Peter 3:8-9]

 

Ok, so explain the following passage to me and how it could be about Israel.

 

Matthew 24:9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. 10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

 

How many times in the NT are we warned that we will be persecuted in this life?  The fact that the disciples were Jewish does not negate the fact that the disciples were entrusted to start the CHURCH.  The NT is written for the CHURCH, the gentiles.  Because Jesus was a Jew does that mean we can forget all of this because it is really all about Israel?  Should I just go ahead and rip the gospel of Matthew out of my bible because it really doesn't apply to me?  

Any thoughts on what I posted before in regards to "the thief" in Revelation or Matthew and the place it is in scripture?  How about the passage about the armor of God and the garments from Matthew 24?

I'm not being sarcastic with you either, I hope you realize that.  I am just direct and often misunderstood.  Believe me brother, I am not trying to convince you of anything, just asking you questions that I believe you should consider being able to answer, this is not a trick.

God bless

[Heb 13:8]

35 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

That passage has nothing to do with the pre-trib Rapture my friend.

Then why is the word for "rapture" in 1 Thess 4:17 and Rev 12:5, "harpazo".

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It is simply the story of the Woman (Israel) giving birth to Jesus the male-child who the Dragon tried to kill via King Herod at Birth.

Where in Stellarium software 2,000 years ago do you see the Rev 12 sign in the heavens? Don't you think we would of found it by now.

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these things are told to get us to understand who the Woman and the Dragon are

and also the body of Christ. John is connecting the head with the body in Rev 12:5 through rapture by using the words huios and teknon.

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Its a PROPHECY........Jesus being born was a past event, it was only setting up the Prophecy where it could be ENCODED

Right, Jesus (the head) was born 2,000 years ago. It's also a future prophecy for the body. It's pretty lonely without a body, no?

Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.

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For starters, we do not know the date of the Rapture

I do believe we can know the date and also the time (twinkling of an eye at sunset). Paul says that rapture will come like a thief to nonbelievers. Believers will know. God is the perfect math teacher, and He gave us the 70th week, 1260, 1290, 1335 days.

I also find it interesting that "september twenty one" equals "2017" on the Gematria calculator. It's the only time this occurs.. http://www.gematrix.org/?word=september+twenty+one

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You have pigeonholed yourself into this thought because of a false idea about some stars in heaven, when that has nothing to do with what John/Jesus was telling us

"Some stars in heaven"? No RM, in the Bible the word signs actually means signs, lol.

Gen 1:14 And God said, "Let there be lights in the vault of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs (oth) to mark sacred times, and days and years.

oth: a sign
Original Word: אוֹת
Part of Speech: Noun Feminine
Transliteration: oth
Phonetic Spelling: (oth)
Short Definition: sign

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There will be people who get saved after the Rapture. That's just a fact, if you were a skeptic, and your wife and kids were Raptured wouldn't you give your life to the Lord? Some people go to Church and are FAKE

Right, these are called tribulation saints. Church age saints are separate from tribulation saints. That's right, they're fake. God says you must be born again to see the kingdom of God John 3:3. If you are truly born again you are forever a part of the body of Christ.

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Jesus said if you are luke-warm I will spew you out of my mouth. 

It's figurative language bro to describe Jesus disgust.

[Revelation Man]

12 minutes ago, Heb 13:8 said:

Then why is the word for "rapture" in 1 Thess 4:17 and Rev 12:5, "harpazo".

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Because Jesus was Harpazo'd to Heaven just like we will be. 

In the Greek New Testament, the word harpazo is found a total of 17 times in 13 different verses. Each time harpazo is used this verb refers to a quick or sudden, often violently physical “snatching away” or “catching away” of a person, a thing, or an idea. More important is the fact that in 5 of these 17 times harpazo is used in the New Testament harpazo ALWAYS refers to the literal physical (bodily) removal of a faithfully righteous human being from one place to another, or from one sphere of existence to another. The 5 times harpazo is used involving faithfully righteous people are when:

1. Philip is harpazo’d from the presence of the Ethiopian eunuch to a different location miles away (see Acts 8:39, AKJV)

2.  Paul is harpazo’d from the Earth to the Third Heaven (see 2 Corinthians 12:2, AKJV)

3. Paul is harpazo’d from the Earth to the Third Heaven; second reference (see 2 Corinthians 12:4, AKJV)

4. Bride of Christ is harpazo’d from the Earth to the clouds to meet Her Groom (Christ Jesus) in the air (see 1 Thessalonians 4:17, AKJV); the understanding here is that the Bride will be taken to Heaven to be with Her Groom

5. Christ Jesus is harpazo’d from Bethany near the Mount of Olives to His Throne in Heaven (see Revelation 12:5; cf. Luke 24:50-51; Acts 1:9; AKJV)

Each one of the above five supernaturally powerful acts of the Holy Spirit by which literal bodily removals of humans either from one place to another on Earth or from off of this Earth to Heaven proves that the Rapture is a biblically sound doctrine. In fact, the English words Rapture and Raptured actually are derived from the Latin verb rapio (catch up or take away), and rapio is used in the Latin Vulgate Bible (also referred to as The Vulgate).

As you see, this word is used a few times with other men. The word means what it means, it never meant only the Rapture of the Church. 

54 minutes ago, Heb 13:8 said:

Where in Stellarium software 2,000 years ago do you see the Rev 12 sign in the heavens? Don't you think we would of found it by now.

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In the book of Revelation........Just like in chapter 15.....Rev. 15:1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.

This is a "SIGN IN HEAVEN" and there is not one Star mentioned, because like Rev. 12, the SIGN means a Vision. This one is of Seven Angels with Seven Vials. It has nothing to to with Stars.....the stars in Rev. 12 are Josephs Brothers the Sub is his father and the moon is Rachel. Thus its Israel, nothing more and nothing less.

1 hour ago, Heb 13:8 said:

and also the body of Christ. John is connecting the head with the body in Rev 12:5 through rapture by using the words huios and teknon.

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No.........Christ Jesus is the male-child. He has already ascended to the right hand of God. You are trying to force this brother.

1 hour ago, Heb 13:8 said:

Right, Jesus (the head) was born 2,000 years ago. It's also a future prophecy for the body. It's pretty lonely without a body, no?

Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.

When the Woman Flees, the Church will be in Heaven, but this has nothing to do with it. 

1 hour ago, Heb 13:8 said:

I do believe we can know the date and also the time (twinkling of an eye at sunset). Paul says that rapture will come like a thief to nonbelievers. Believers will know. God is the perfect math teacher, and He gave us the 70th week, 1260, 1290, 1335 days.

I also find it interesting that "september twenty one" equals "2017" on the Gematria calculator. It's the only time this occurs.. http://www.gematrix.org/?word=september+twenty+one

I know, which proves you are barking up the wrong tree. We are told we can know the Season, but not the day nor hour THUS not the Date. You will be expectant like the Jewish Bride, but still surprised. No one will know the date. 

1 hour ago, Heb 13:8 said:

"Some stars in heaven"? No RM, in the Bible the word signs actually means signs, lol.

Gen 1:14 And God said, "Let there be lights in the vault of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs (oth) to mark sacred times, and days and years.

The North star is a "SIGN" we are heading North. Stars have been used for Navigation since man was created. The Sun and Moon gives us our times also. 

1 hour ago, Heb 13:8 said:

It's figurative language bro to describe Jesus disgust.

I don't think so....Jesus also said there will be many that come unto me and say have we not cast out demons in tour name etc. etc. and Jesus will say, Depart from me ye workers of iniquity, for I never knew you. I don't believe in the once saved always saved. If you love sin more that God you can turn back unto it.

[ENOCH2010]

wingnut you have brought forth some really great points in this thread

[Absolem]

22 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

The Day of the Lord is A SINGLE DAY that kicks off a period of Destruction/Wrath. By reading and researching in Depth it is very clear that all that is prophesied happens over a long period of time. The Sun, Mon and Stars do not give their light on the Day of the Lord, and we know that happens at the 6th Seal. So I count the Four Horses as the Lamb/Gods Wrath and of course the Seven Trumpets and Seven Vials are Gods Plagues/Wrath.

As per the Creation, you are going to CHOKE when you hear my understanding the Holy Spirit has given unto me. I always try to be pragmatic and meld Gods Holy World with Science when it is clear. To me it is very clear that the Universe is 13.7 Billion Years old, we have even mapped the Universe out with microwaves and understand exactly when and what the Universe looks like throughout time. 

So then I ask myself, why did God say we were created in Six Days. This is caused by a few things. One the Hebrew Language had less than 4000 words whereas English today has 500,000 words. Many words are used in various situations, the word YOWM is used in about 50 different ways. A Period of Time is one way it can be used. It ORIGINAL MEANING is "TO BE HOT" not Day. Secondly, God confused our language at Babel, God didn't want us to know every minute detail at that time. 

IMHO, the very first day was 9.2 Billion years old. There was NO STARS for the first 400 Million years according Wilkinson's Microwave Anisotropy Probe that mapped out the Universe. THUS the Bible is 100 percent correct....REREAD IT....Genesis 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

We had 400 Million years of Darkness. The 2nd Day was about 3.5 Billion years until the Grasses came forth. Etc. Etc. Etc. each Day was such and such long, the LAST DAY, imho, was from about 350-300 Million Years B.C. until 6000 years ago or 4000 B.C. 

The land animals etc. were created on this day, wheres the Sea Animals and birds were created on the 5th Day, 600 Million B.C. unto 300-350 Million B.C.

The Dinos were wiped out on the 6th Day, and man was created 6000 years ago, and MAN LIKE ANIMAL that has been discovered before that, had NO SOUL......In other words they were just animals, God created man in His Image, and Breathed His Spirit into man. Thus the foolish Scientists can rant all they like, any Animal without a God Breathed Soul is NOT A HUMAN BEING. 

That was insightful.

[Revelation Man]

4 minutes ago, Absolem said:

That was insightful.

I try to use logic then research the key words in the Scriptures to see why such and such is stated. Then research the science because I know that in truth, science can only back up God, because God can not lie. That is of course where science seems to differ from what men believe. The angry Atheists get hostile, "THAT'S NOT WHAT GOD SAYS...IN YOUR FICTION BOOK....He says it was created in 6 Days. LOL.

So I get the SIX DAY Guys and the Atheist riled up....And when I point out the was not created on the Fourth Day as many Christians say, they are like..........NO......... They really believe the Earth was here before the Sun, even though the Sun holds the Earth in its rotational pull. 

On the Fourth Day the Seasons were set......So I take that as the Moon and Earth were placed into their final places with a CRASH where our Moon in size is kind of unique, and it stabilized the Earth and its SEASONS.....Thus we get the light in an organized manner, instead of having a wobbling earth that would got major weather swings and light might not shine for days in certain areas at times. THUS God considered this Giving us our light, in a PROPER MANNER. But they don't want to hear it. 

 

Thanks for the compliment.....God Bless

[wingnut-]

4 hours ago, ENOCH2010 said:

wingnut you have brought forth some really great points in this thread

 

Thanks my friend, just the tip of the iceberg really.  I was once a pre-tribber until I started to see all the hoops one has to jump through, there is a much easier explanation, it isn't pleasant, but it doesn't require manipulation either.  The best way to approach eschatology is to start with what is known, and then put the pieces of the puzzle together from there.  Like the thief piece, it is where it is in scripture multiple times, so not hard to see really when one looks.

God bless

[Heb 13:8]

6 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Because Jesus was Harpazo'd to Heaven just like we will be. 

Actually, no He wasn't. He slowly ascended in victory. The rapture is a quick rescue, the complete opposite. Jesus didn't need to be rescued, He already defeated the devil. The church however does need to be rescued, from the red dragon in Rev 12:3-4.

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Christ Jesus is harpazo’d from Bethany near the Mount of Olives to His Throne in Heaven (see Revelation 12:5; cf. Luke 24:50-51; Acts 1:9; AKJV)

This is my point exactly. In Acts 1:9 the word for "he was lifted up" is "epairó". This word doesn't mean a quick snatching away. It's actually the opposite of "harpazo". 

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it never meant only the Rapture of the Church. 

That's true, but in the end times "harpazo" is meant for the church only in 1 Thess 4:17 and Rev 12:5.

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In the book of Revelation........Just like in chapter 15.....Rev. 15:1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.

This sign actually includes the stars, the seven stars of Pleiades. This sign also is found in Stellarium in 2024, towards the end of the 70th week.

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because like Rev. 12, the SIGN means a Vision.

A vision that John had 2,000 years ago that is coming to pass on 9/23/17. Not sure why you're not getting this.

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the stars in Rev. 12 are Josephs Brothers the Sub is his father and the moon is Rachel. Thus its Israel, nothing more and nothing less.

No, the 12 stars crowning the woman's head represent the twelve tribes of Israel. Israel is also giving birth to the body of Christ. Israel is our mother in the sense that she gave birth to Christianity (the body of Christ) 2,000 years ago by putting Jesus to death.

That is when the conception of the church began, at Pentecost. The church has been in gestation for 2,000 years bro. The baby has to come out sometime, no? In the end times Israel must give birth again so the church can change from corruptible to incorruptible seed. Read 1 Cor 15:50-54.

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No.........Christ Jesus is the male-child. He has already ascended to the right hand of God. You are trying to force this brother.

Yes the head ascended, but the body is next RM. The male-child in Rev 12:5 consists of the head and the body finally being joined together. Jesus Christ along with the church will give authority and rule all the nations with an iron scepter..

Rev 2:26-27 To the one who is victorious and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations— 27that one ‘will rule them with an iron scepter and will dash them to pieces like pottery’ —just as I have received authority from my Father. 

Rev 12:5 She gave birth to a son (huios Jesus Christ himself), a male child, who “will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.” And her child (teknon the church) was snatched up (harpazo) to God and to his throne.

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When the Woman Flees, the Church will be in Heaven, but this has nothing to do with it. 

The body being connected to the head through rapture has everything to do with it. Brother, when it comes to the Rev 12:1-5 great sign there are two camps, the camp that is asleep and the camp that is awake. Just pray about it, I'm sure He'll show you.

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I know, which proves you are barking up the wrong tree. We are told we can know the Season, but not the day nor hour THUS not the Date. You will be expectant like the Jewish Bride, but still surprised. No one will know the date. 

How will you know the season if you deny the Rev 12 sign??

Not knowing the day and hour is an idiom referring to the two day Feast of Trumpets, not knowing when the New Moon would appear. If we are surprised then that day will surprise us like a thief. Paul says that day will not surprise believers like a thief.

Jesus commands us to wake up, so He doesn't come like a thief.

Rev 3:3 Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; hold it fast, and repent. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you.

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The North star is a "SIGN" we are heading North. Stars have been used for Navigation since man was created. The Sun and Moon gives us our times also.

Right, and all the requirements for the sun, moon, stars and planets FULFILL Rev 12:1-5 on 9/23/17. We have four months left. I think you can download an app on your cell phone and see Jupiter in the womb right now. It's time to wake up!

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I don't think so....Jesus also said there will be many that come unto me and say have we not cast out demons in tour name etc. etc. and Jesus will say, Depart from me ye workers of iniquity, for I never knew you. I don't believe in the once saved always saved. If you love sin more that God you can turn back unto it.

Well, it kinda makes sense that you deny the Rev 12 sign and are also non-osas. I'm really not surprised. Only the religious put true believers back under the law.

[Revelation Man]

57 minutes ago, Heb 13:8 said:

Actually, no He wasn't. He slowly ascended in victory. The rapture is a quick rescue, the complete opposite. Jesus didn't need to be rescued, He already defeated the devil. The church however does need to be rescued, from the red dragon in Rev 12:3-4.

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LOL....Slowly......Harpazo'd means taken by force, you are one of those who wants to argue minute details, when we are reading third hand translations from a limited Language in the Hebrew and Greek. I just pointed to the facts, Hapazo'd is shown in various places, and points to people just being moved a few miles. I don't care if it was slow or fast, that has no relevance, I suspect you have no argument. Jesus was Harpazo'd to heaven, the Church will be Harpazo'd to Heaven.

1 hour ago, Heb 13:8 said:

This is my point exactly. In Acts 1:9 the word for "he was lifted up" is "epairó". This word doesn't mean a quick snatching away. It's actually the opposite of "harpazo". 

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I have done in depth studies on the word. Who care if its quick at time or not, I could care less. Jesus was Raptured to Heaven just like we will be. Rev. 12 was Jesus, it is not the Church. Rev. 12 is the Midway point in the Tribulation. 

1 hour ago, Heb 13:8 said:

That's true, but in the end times "harpazo" is meant for the church only in 1 Thess 4:17 and Rev 12:5.

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The Church is not in Rev. 12.

1 hour ago, Heb 13:8 said:

This sign actually includes the stars, the seven stars of Pleiades. This sign also is found in Stellarium in 2024, towards the end of the 70th week.

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I will be looking to the Prophecy, nit the stars.....Don't feel bad when you are proved wrong in Sept. I have know a lots of date setters, and they can't be right by Gods own Holy Word. They usually feel bad, but just remember, Satan is very crafty, we have all fallen for falsehoods before.

1 hour ago, Heb 13:8 said:

A vision that John had 2,000 years ago that is coming to pass on 9/23/17. Not sure why you're not getting this.

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NOPE............................I will be here on the 24th, unless the Lord comes before then. But it will not be because of any Stars.

1 hour ago, Heb 13:8 said:

No, the 12 stars crowning the woman's head represent the twelve tribes of Israel. Israel is also giving birth to the body of Christ. Israel is our mother in the sense that she gave birth to Christianity (the body of Christ) 2,000 years ago by putting Jesus to death.

 

Genesis 37:9 says its his BROTHERS........

1 hour ago, Heb 13:8 said:

That is when the conception of the church began, at Pentecost. The church has been in gestation for 2,000 years bro. The baby has to come out sometime, no? In the end times Israel must give birth again so the church can change from corruptible to incorruptible seed. Read 1 Cor 15:50-54.

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It's BABY JESUS.........He rules with an IRON ROD throughout Scriptures.

1 hour ago, Heb 13:8 said:

How will you know the season if you deny the Rev 12 sign??

Not knowing the day and hour is an idiom referring to the two day Feast of Trumpets, not knowing when the New Moon would appear. If we are surprised then that day will surprise us like a thief. Paul says that day will not surprise believers like a thief.

Jesus commands us to wake up, so He doesn't come like a thief.

Rev 3:3 Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; hold it fast, and repent. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you.

Because of the Signs in Matthew 24 and throughout the Bible. Ezekiel said Israel would be DEAD MEN'S BONES, then come Alive again. That has happened. Daniel stated in the LAST DAYS people would travel to and fro....And Knowledge would INCREASE. There are 1000's of signs we are in the last days.

Not knowing the Day nor hour references the father being the one to send the Bridegroom for the Bride, it was ALWAYS the fathers choice when the son would Come. And he was always sent after midnight. 

1 hour ago, Heb 13:8 said:

Right, and all the requirements for the sun, moon, stars and planets FULFILL Rev 12:1-5 on 9/23/17. We have four months left. I think you can download an app on your cell phone and see Jupiter in the womb right now. It's time to wake up!

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I will not dog you after Sept. 23.............just learn the parable of the Black Hole, never listen to DATES, for all of those things wind up in never, never land.

 

1 hour ago, Heb 13:8 said:

Well, it kinda makes sense that you deny the Rev 12 sign and are also non-osas. I'm really not surprised. Only the religious put true believers back under the law.

 We are under Grace.............But you can't sin WILLFULLY and keep doing it whilst saying I am forgiven by God, HE DON'T PLAY THAT. There's a difference between sinning like David did and it making you sick at what you have done, and going to strip clubs and drinking and doing dope etc. etc. That is a LIFESTYLE of Evil, and it shows your true heart loves EVIL more than GOD. That man is not going to Heaven, believe me.....YE THAT WORK INIQUITY, DEPART FROM ME !!