Jump to content
IGNORED

2 Thess. 2:1


kenny2212

Recommended Posts


  • Group:  Diamond Member
  • Followers:  2
  • Topic Count:  35
  • Topics Per Day:  0.01
  • Content Count:  1,533
  • Content Per Day:  0.57
  • Reputation:   382
  • Days Won:  1
  • Joined:  11/03/2016
  • Status:  Offline

2 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

I am not getting how those scriptures you cited show a Seven Year Period.

Rapture is included in the Day of the Lord. Scripture speaks about that day and the rapture coming like a thief to nonbelievers. Labor Pains also in September, see 1 Thess 5:1-5..

Matt 24:37-43 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 40Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left. 42“Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. 43But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into.

1 Thess 5:1-5 Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, 2for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. 4But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief. 5You are all children of the light and children of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness.

2 Pet 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Royal Member
  • Followers:  8
  • Topic Count:  12
  • Topics Per Day:  0.00
  • Content Count:  4,039
  • Content Per Day:  1.41
  • Reputation:   546
  • Days Won:  0
  • Joined:  06/01/2016
  • Status:  Offline

On 5/6/2017 at 5:35 PM, wingnut- said:

Out of curiosity I have to ask.  When you guys read the creation account, are each of those days 3 1/2 years or 7 years as well?  If not, why?

 

The Day of the Lord is A SINGLE DAY that kicks off a period of Destruction/Wrath. By reading and researching in Depth it is very clear that all that is prophesied happens over a long period of time. The Sun, Mon and Stars do not give their light on the Day of the Lord, and we know that happens at the 6th Seal. So I count the Four Horses as the Lamb/Gods Wrath and of course the Seven Trumpets and Seven Vials are Gods Plagues/Wrath.

As per the Creation, you are going to CHOKE when you hear my understanding the Holy Spirit has given unto me. I always try to be pragmatic and meld Gods Holy World with Science when it is clear. To me it is very clear that the Universe is 13.7 Billion Years old, we have even mapped the Universe out with microwaves and understand exactly when and what the Universe looks like throughout time. 

So then I ask myself, why did God say we were created in Six Days. This is caused by a few things. One the Hebrew Language had less than 4000 words whereas English today has 500,000 words. Many words are used in various situations, the word YOWM is used in about 50 different ways. A Period of Time is one way it can be used. It ORIGINAL MEANING is "TO BE HOT" not Day. Secondly, God confused our language at Babel, God didn't want us to know every minute detail at that time. 

IMHO, the very first day was 9.2 Billion years old. There was NO STARS for the first 400 Million years according Wilkinson's Microwave Anisotropy Probe that mapped out the Universe. THUS the Bible is 100 percent correct....REREAD IT....Genesis 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

We had 400 Million years of Darkness. The 2nd Day was about 3.5 Billion years until the Grasses came forth. Etc. Etc. Etc. each Day was such and such long, the LAST DAY, imho, was from about 350-300 Million Years B.C. until 6000 years ago or 4000 B.C. 

The land animals etc. were created on this day, wheres the Sea Animals and birds were created on the 5th Day, 600 Million B.C. unto 300-350 Million B.C.

The Dinos were wiped out on the 6th Day, and man was created 6000 years ago, any MAN LIKE ANIMAL that has been discovered before that, had NO SOUL......In other words they were just animals, God created man in His Image, and Breathed His Spirit into man. Thus the foolish Scientists can rant all they like, any Animal without a God Breathed Soul is NOT A HUMAN BEING. 

Edited by Revelation Man
Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Royal Member
  • Followers:  8
  • Topic Count:  12
  • Topics Per Day:  0.00
  • Content Count:  4,039
  • Content Per Day:  1.41
  • Reputation:   546
  • Days Won:  0
  • Joined:  06/01/2016
  • Status:  Offline

1 hour ago, Heb 13:8 said:

Rapture is included in the Day of the Lord. Scripture speaks about that day and the rapture coming like a thief to nonbelievers. Labor Pains also in September, see 1 Thess 5:1-5..

 

I guess you are pre-tribulation with your statements, like I am, but one can never tell today there are so many beliefs, Mid etc. etc. etc. etc. etc..................But anyway, The Day of the Lord and the Rapture are Different, BUT....There are some instances where references are made to the fact if you miss the Rapture, you are THRUST into sudden Destruction. I mean if you are one of the 5 Virgins (types) to miss the Rapture, you WILL GO THROUGH THE TRIBULATION, it will be your destiny, so for all who miss this Rapture, as Christians who have t then rededicate their lives to Christ or resist the Mark of the Beast and become a Martyr, you will have to pay a steep price for missing the Rapture. So as soon as the Rapture happens, if I was not in that Rapture, I would feel dreadful. Knowing whats to come. 

1 hour ago, Heb 13:8 said:

Matt 24:37-43 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 40Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left. 42“Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. 43But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into.

 

I see this as the Rapture, but I think its of course out of place, this should come between Matthew 24:13 and 14, before the TROUBLES HIT. Matthew knew nothing about the Rapture so of course he places it after the Second Coming (Matt. 24:27-31). We can tell this is NOT the Second Coming, because they are still Marrying/Partying/Eating but just before the Second Coming of Jesus we will have all the Trumpet Judgments and Vial Judgments, they will not be HAPPY and MARRYING......They will be in hiding, and in fear of Gods Wrath, not Marrying as in the Days of Noah. You see I think this is referring to the people during Noah's time laughing and mocking Noah who was WARNING THEM of what was to come shortly. Noah **** himself in and then the Rains came, but of course it took a few days for the Flood waters to go crazy. LIKEWISE.....We have been warning of the coming RAPTURE, you need to give your Lives to Christ, else you are going to go through a time of HELLISH NIGHTMARES like never seen before !! And they laugh and Mock us of course, saying WHERE IS THE PROMISE OF HIS COMING......Scoffing at our very words, just like they laughed and mocked Noah. Then SUDDEN DESTRUCTION......The fact is, when the Rapture happens, anyone left on earth is going through the Tribulation Period, unless you die before the 3 1/2 years of FAKE PEACE are up, so it will be SUDDEN DESTRUCTION in essence, all those left will SUDDENLY have an appointment with the Tribulation. It will not be a good thing to not be a part of the Rapture. There will be a coming terror like never seen before.

2 hours ago, Heb 13:8 said:

1 Thess 5:1-5 Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, 2for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. 4But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief. 5You are all children of the light and children of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness.

The Day of the Lord will come on the Wicked of this World like a thief in the night, they don't believe in God, when they see Millions of us Christians die they will have some excuse, we were not right, we had a bad gene, something like that will be stated, many just hate God to start with and love Satan. Rev. 13 says they will worship the Dragon (Satan) and the Beast. 

What Paul is telling the Thessalonians here is just like in 2 Thessalonians 2, he is telling them we are not going through Gods Wrath, we are NOT IN THE DARK but in the LIGHT, thus those Days can not overtake us......we do not belong to GODS WRATH.....The Children of DARKNESS belong to that Destination. We are Children of the Light, we know our destination. AMEN.

2 hours ago, Heb 13:8 said:

2 Pet 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare.

This is true, but this will happen AFTER THE RAPTURE Brother.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Royal Member
  • Followers:  39
  • Topic Count:  101
  • Topics Per Day:  0.02
  • Content Count:  7,673
  • Content Per Day:  1.32
  • Reputation:   7,358
  • Days Won:  67
  • Joined:  04/22/2008
  • Status:  Offline

22 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

The Day of the Lord is A SINGLE DAY that kicks off a period of Destruction/Wrath. By reading and researching in Depth it is very clear that all that is prophesied happens over a long period of time. The Sun, Mon and Stars do not give their light on the Day of the Lord, and we know that happens at the 6th Seal. So I count the Four Horses as the Lamb/Gods Wrath and of course the Seven Trumpets and Seven Vials are Gods Plagues/Wrath.

 

The Dinos were wiped out on the 6th Day, and man was created 6000 years ago, and MAN LIKE ANIMAL that has been discovered before that, had NO SOUL......In other words they were just animals, God created man in His Image, and Breathed His Spirit into man. Thus the foolish Scientists can rant all they like, any Animal without a God Breathed Soul is NOT A HUMAN BEING. 

Ok, so for arguments sake, let's say I agree with your explanation regarding the time of creation.  Are you saying that the word Yowm is used in the creation account as well as throughout the OT prophecies?

2nd point, in the first segment of what you mentioned above, explain how that fits with this part of Isaiah's prophecy.  Keep in mind, you said that the day of the Lord is a single day that kicks off a period of destruction/wrath.

Isaiah 24:19 The earth is violently broken,
The earth is split open,
The earth is shaken exceedingly.
20 The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard,
And shall totter like a hut;
Its transgression shall be heavy upon it,
And it will fall, and not rise again.

21 It shall come to pass in that day
That the Lord will punish on high the host of exalted ones,
And on the earth the kings of the earth.
22 They will be gathered together,
As prisoners are gathered in the pit,
And will be shut up in the prison;
After many days they will be punished.
23 Then the moon will be disgraced
And the sun ashamed;
For the Lord of hosts will reign
On Mount Zion and in Jerusalem
And before His elders, gloriously.

 

3rd issue is with the second section I left quoted above.  You state that the dino's die out on the 6th day, so how do you explain that in relation to what is written in Job?

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Royal Member
  • Followers:  39
  • Topic Count:  101
  • Topics Per Day:  0.02
  • Content Count:  7,673
  • Content Per Day:  1.32
  • Reputation:   7,358
  • Days Won:  67
  • Joined:  04/22/2008
  • Status:  Offline

42 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

 

I see this as the Rapture, but I think its of course out of place, this should come between Matthew 24:13 and 14, before the TROUBLES HIT. Matthew knew nothing about the Rapture so of course he places it after the Second Coming (Matt. 24:27-31). 

Ok, this is a serious issue here.  Of course this is what people refer to as the rapture, and you THINK it's out of place?  You think Jesus answered wrong?  Keep in mind that all of chapter 24 is Jesus speaking.  This is the only chronological timeline we have, and you think it is out of place and should come somewhere else?

Is that because it disproves the early departure so many are convinced of?  You think Jesus was confused?  Matthew knew nothing about something that wasn't written of by anyone, we agree on that, considering the word rapture doesn't appear in scripture.  But this isn't Matthew's story, this is Jesus speaking.  Jesus placed it exactly where it belonged, which is right here in Revelation.

Revelation 16:15 “Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he who watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame.”

16 And they gathered them together to the place called in Hebrew, Armageddon.

 

That's Jesus speaking as well, did He get this wrong as well?  Sorry if I'm coming off as harsh, but seriously, it is just not right to take such liberties with scripture.  Scripture is what a theory should be built on, don't try and make it fit around what is comfortable for you.  Perhaps familiarize yourself with the ten plagues of Egypt, did God protect His people then?  Daniel in the lions den?  The three in the fiery furnace?

That's just plain wrong.  What we think is irrelevant, what scripture says is everything.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Royal Member
  • Followers:  8
  • Topic Count:  12
  • Topics Per Day:  0.00
  • Content Count:  4,039
  • Content Per Day:  1.41
  • Reputation:   546
  • Days Won:  0
  • Joined:  06/01/2016
  • Status:  Offline

5 minutes ago, wingnut- said:

Ok, so for arguments sake, let's say I agree with your explanation regarding the time of creation.  Are you saying that the word Yowm is used in the creation account as well as throughout the OT prophecies?

 

The Context has to be considered when using words with Multiple Meanings.

—Hebrew Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)

#3117 יוֹם yowm {yome} from an unused root meaning to be hot; TWOT - 852; n m
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Brown-Driver-Briggs (Old Testament Hebrew-English Lexicon)

day, time, year 1a) day (as opposed to night) 1b) day (24 hour, period) 1b1) as defined by evening and morning in Genesis 1 1b2) as a division of time 1b2a) a working day, a day's journey 1c) days, lifetime (pl.) 1d) time, period (general) 1e) year 1f) temporal references.

------------------------------------------------------------------

—Strong's (Hebrew & Chaldee Dictionary of the Old Testament)

From an unused root meaning to be hot; a day (as the warm hours), whether literally (from sunrise to sunset, or from one sunset to the next), or figuratively (a space of time defined by an associated term), (often used adverbially):—age, + always, + chronicles, continually (-ance), daily, ([birth-], each, to) day, (now a, two) days (agone), + elder, X end, + evening, + (for) ever (-lasting, -more), X full, life, as (so) long as (. . . live), (even) now, + old, + outlived, + perpetually, presently, + remaineth, X required, season, X since, space, then, (process of) time, + as at other times, + in trouble, weather, (as) when, (a, the, within a) while (that), X whole (+ age), (full) year (-ly), + younger.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

—NAS Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible with Hebrew-Aramaic and Greek Dictionaries {How many times the word is used in varying instances}

#3117.

יוֹם

yom (398a); a prim. root; day:—

NASB - afternoon*(1), age(8), age*(1), all(1), always*(14), amount*(2), battle(1), birthday*(1), Chronicles*(38), completely*(1), continually*(14), course*(1), daily(22), daily the days(1), day(1115), day of the days(1), day that the period(1), day's(6), day's every day(1), daylight*(1), days(635), days on the day(1), days to day(1), days you shall daily(1), days ago(1), days'(11), each(1), each day(4), entire(2), eternity(1), evening*(1), ever in your life*(1), every day(2), fate(1), first(5), forever*(11), forevermore*(1), full(5), full year(1), future*(1), holiday*(3), later*(2), length(1), life(12), life*(1), lifetime(2), lifetime*(1), live(1), long(2), long as i live(1), long*(11), midday*(1), now(5), older*(1), once(2), period(3), perpetually*(2), present(1), recently(1), reigns(1), ripe*(1), short-lived*(1), so long*(1), some time(1), survived*(2), time(45), time*(1), times*(2), today(172), today*(1), usual(1), very old*(1), when(10), when the days(1), whenever(1), while(3), whole(2), year(10), yearly(5), years(13), yesterday*(1).

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So context matters when this word is used. Since CREATION is just not something that can happen in Six days, we must consider something else and I consider it to be a PERIOD OF TIME.........

 

24 minutes ago, wingnut- said:

2nd point, in the first segment of what you mentioned above, explain how that fits with this part of Isaiah's prophecy.  Keep in mind, you said that the day of the Lord is a single day that kicks off a period of destruction/wrath.

 

Every period of Time starts with a Certain Day.....The Wrath of God will start on a Certain Day an end on a Certain Day. I say the day of Te Lord is a 3 1/2 Year Period that starts when the First Seal is Opened and Ends 1260 Days later when the Seventh Vial is poured out and Jesus Christ destroys the Anti-Christ an all of his Minions. 

 

30 minutes ago, wingnut- said:

3rd issue is with the second section I left quoted above.  You state that the dino's die out on the 6th day, so how do you explain that in relation to what is written in Job?

If you are speaking about Behemoth, we have no clue what he was referring to, at least I don't, and also when the Scriptures say I created Behemoth with THEE....It doesn't have to mean He created Behemoth at the same time. Again, the limited Hebrew Language, I can't say to much about it because I have never studied it in depth, because it never seemed like an interest of mine I guess. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Royal Member
  • Followers:  8
  • Topic Count:  12
  • Topics Per Day:  0.00
  • Content Count:  4,039
  • Content Per Day:  1.41
  • Reputation:   546
  • Days Won:  0
  • Joined:  06/01/2016
  • Status:  Offline

29 minutes ago, wingnut- said:

Ok, this is a serious issue here.  Of course this is what people refer to as the rapture, and you THINK it's out of place?  You think Jesus answered wrong?  Keep in mind that all of chapter 24 is Jesus speaking.  This is the only chronological timeline we have, and you think it is out of place and should come somewhere else?

 

Do you think Matthew wrote everything down in order as things were being spoken or they memorized the speeches? I don't know one way or the other, but since the Gospels came many years later, 30 or 40 years later, I suspect they eventually decided to write them down after Jesus died and since Jesus did not teach the Rapture to anyone but Paul, they thought it should go after the SECOND COMING (Matthew 24:27-31). Then again Jesus could have told these things out of sequence on purpose for a number of reasons, he didn't teach his original disciples about the Rapture..........this had to be on purpose, but he did teach it to Paul, the Gentiles Disciple. So Maybe Jesus didn't place it where it belonged (IMHO) on purpose or he knew that most End Time Jewish peoples would go through the Tribulation, because after all they have been blinded until AFTER the time of the Gentiles have come in, so Jesus might have placed the inference to the Time of Troubles and Second Coming first because he knew the VAST MAJORITY of Jewish peoples would go through those troubles and be looking for Him to return in the Eastern Skies, after they have accepted the Messiah, during this Tribulation period. Then Jesus needed to tell the Messianic Jews their fate also, and added the Rapture verses afterwards......

It doesn't matter why its out of place/Sequence. We have the Word of God and we know the Rapture comes before the Second Coming, don't we? No one will be Marrying as in the Days of Noah during the Tribulation, they will be hiding and fearing Gods Wrath. But just before the Rapture, they would be Marrying/Eating/Partying and HAPPY, ignoring our dire warnings of the coming Tribulation, where an End Time BEAST of a Man will kill Billions....BUT alas, they are Laughing at us, just like those people in Noah's days laughed at his warnings !! WHERE IS THE PROMISE OF HIS COMING !!! They all say......Mocking God of course just like those men did to Noah and God back on Noah's days.

 

29 minutes ago, wingnut- said:

Is that because it disproves the early departure so many are convinced of?  You think Jesus was confused?  Matthew knew nothing about something that wasn't written of by anyone, we agree on that, considering the word rapture doesn't appear in scripture.  But this isn't Matthew's story, this is Jesus speaking.  Jesus placed it exactly where it belonged, which is right here in Revelation.

Revelation 16:15 “Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he who watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame.”

16 And they gathered them together to the place called in Hebrew, Armageddon.

 

That's Jesus speaking as well, did He get this wrong as well?  Sorry if I'm coming off as harsh, but seriously, it is just not right to take such liberties with scripture.  Scripture is what a theory should be built on, don't try and make it fit around what is comfortable for you.  Perhaps familiarize yourself with the ten plagues of Egypt, did God protect His people then?  Daniel in the lions den?  The three in the fiery furnace?

That's just plain wrong.  What we think is irrelevant, what scripture says is everythin

Revelation is NOT in Chronological order.........Rev. 17 and 18 don't even exist in REAL TIME.....

You implying I said Jesus got anything wrong, is only coming from your lips, not mine. 

 

I stated its out of proper order because IT IS............Maybe Jesus did it on PURPOSE if he had wanted his 12 Disciples to understand INSTEAD OF PAUL, he would have taught them, would he not? It is out of order.........that is just the facts. One is the Rapture and the Other is the Second Coming. 

Edited by Revelation Man
Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Royal Member
  • Followers:  39
  • Topic Count:  101
  • Topics Per Day:  0.02
  • Content Count:  7,673
  • Content Per Day:  1.32
  • Reputation:   7,358
  • Days Won:  67
  • Joined:  04/22/2008
  • Status:  Offline

1 minute ago, Revelation Man said:

Do you think Matthew wrote everything down in order as things were being spoken or they memorized the speeches? I don't know one way or the other,

II Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

God is perfect, no mistakes, and He is not a God of confusion.  It was written precisely as it was said.

6 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

Jesus did not teach the Rapture to anyone but Paul

The word rapture does not appear in any of Paul's writings either, it doesn't exist anywhere in scripture.  Every single instance that references what people call the rapture doesn't say rapture, but they all do speak of His coming.

10 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

Jesus might have placed the inference to the Time of Troubles and Second Coming first because he knew the VAST MAJORITY of Jews would go through those troubles and be looking for Him to return in the Eastern Skies, after they have accepted the Messiah, during this Tribulation period.

Zechariah prophesied this in regards to the Jews.

Zechariah 13:7 “Awake, O sword, against My Shepherd,
Against the Man who is My Companion,”
Says the Lord of hosts.
“Strike the Shepherd,
And the sheep will be scattered;
Then I will turn My hand against the little ones.
8 And it shall come to pass in all the land,”
Says the Lord,
That two-thirds in it shall be cut off and die,
But one–third shall be left in it:
9 I will bring the one–third through the fire,

Will refine them as silver is refined,
And test them as gold is tested.
They will call on My name,
And I will answer them.
I will say, ‘This is My people’;
And each one will say, ‘The Lord is my God.’”

And the 1/3 that He will bring through the fire as promised are referred to as the remnant, you can find here.

Hosea 2:14 “Therefore, behold, I will allure her,
Will bring her into the wilderness,
And speak comfort to her.
15 I will give her her vineyards from there,
And the Valley of Achor as a door of hope;
She shall sing there,
As in the days of her youth,
As in the day when she came up from the land of Egypt.

16 “And it shall be, in that day,”
Says the Lord,
“That you will call Me ‘My Husband,’
And no longer call Me ‘My Master,’

For the entire picture, I suggest you read Hosea in its entirety, a beautiful tale of love lost, taken aside, and then restored.  This is also confirmed in Revelation 12.

Revelation 12:13 Now when the dragon saw that he had been cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male Child. 14 But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent. 15 So the serpent spewed water out of his mouth like a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away by the flood. 16 But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the flood which the dragon had spewed out of his mouth. 17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

 

Pay really close attention to that passage.  The woman (The remnant of Israel, the 1/3 who make it) is taken away and protected in the wilderness for a time, times, and half a time (3 1/2years).  The dragon (Satan) cannot get her..... this makes him very angry, so he goes after her offspring which are people who have the testimony of Jesus Christ.  Who can that be?  Only 1/3 of Jews left and they are safe, uh-oh.  Who has the testimony of Jesus Christ?  Could it be.......Christians.

 

27 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

It doesn't matter why its out of place. We have the Word of God and we know the Rapture comes before the Second Coming, don't we?

 

But it does matter when it just can't be the case.  Yes, we indeed do have the Word of God.  No, the word rapture never appears once in scripture.  No, it does not come before the second coming because it is the second coming.  The second coming is the only event spoken of by Paul or any of the other NT writers.

 

33 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

Revelation is NOT in Chronological order

 

I never said Revelation is in chronological order, we agree on that.  I said Matthew 24 is in chronological order.

 

35 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

It is out of order.........that is just the facts.

 

No, it is not.  Hopefully after you read what I have offered to you, you will reconsider your thoughts on this.  Again I apologize for sounding harsh, but as a brother in Christ I strongly urge you to not think you know more than Jesus.

God bless

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Royal Member
  • Followers:  8
  • Topic Count:  12
  • Topics Per Day:  0.00
  • Content Count:  4,039
  • Content Per Day:  1.41
  • Reputation:   546
  • Days Won:  0
  • Joined:  06/01/2016
  • Status:  Offline

13 hours ago, wingnut- said:

II Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

God is perfect, no mistakes, and He is not a God of confusion.  It was written precisely as it was said.

And..........you just proved absolutely NOTHING to me with that Scripture. Maybe you didn't read my last post or it didn't register with you. Maybe Jesus didn't want to teach anyone about the Rapture except Paul. (so how would Matthew understand?) Revelation is NOT IN CHRONOLOGICAL ORDER as I stated before, proving scripture doesn't have to be in order.

You can't know how it was written,....and if it was said in that order then Jesus could have done it ON PURPOSE because most Jews will go through the Tribulation. 

13 hours ago, wingnut- said:

The word rapture does not appear in any of Paul's writings either, it doesn't exist anywhere in scripture.  Every single instance that references what people call the rapture doesn't say rapture, but they all do speak of His coming.

14 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

But HARPAZO does appear, doesn't it? Paul spoke about it 2000 years ago, way before anyone named DARBY spoke about it, even though he has no relevance to the situation, HARPAZO = RAPTURE..........2000 YEAR OLD SCRIPTURES. Jesus was Harpazoed to Heaven also.

13 hours ago, wingnut- said:

Zechariah prophesied this in regards to the Jews.

And the 1/3 that He will bring through the fire as promised are referred to as the remnant, you can find here.

For the entire picture, I suggest you read Hosea in its entirety, a beautiful tale of love lost, taken aside, and then restored.  This is also confirmed in Revelation 12.

Revelation 12:13 Now when the dragon saw that he had been cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male Child. 14 But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent. 15 So the serpent spewed water out of his mouth like a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away by the flood. 16 But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the flood which the dragon had spewed out of his mouth. 17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

 

Pay really close attention to that passage.  The woman (The remnant of Israel, the 1/3 who make it) is taken away and protected in the wilderness for a time, times, and half a time (3 1/2years).  The dragon (Satan) cannot get her..... this makes him very angry, so he goes after her offspring which are people who have the testimony of Jesus Christ.  Who can that be?  Only 1/3 of Jews left and they are safe, uh-oh.  Who has the testimony of Jesus Christ?  Could it be.......Christians.

 

Zechariah chapters 12,13 and 14 is one of my specialties as is Revelation chapter 12. 

Zechariah 12 is Israel Repenting after the Rapture of the Church (WHICH ISN'T MENTIONED THERE) thus all Israel is saved, not every Jew but Israel as a Nation Repents (Zechariah 12:10). In Zechariah 13:1 a FOUNTAIN (Jesus' Blood) is opened to Israel for SINS and for UNCLEANNESS.....And then in Zechariah 14 Jesus lands on the Mt. of Olives and destroys the Anti-Christ. 

I have read Hosea, it is beautiful, being a preacher of 30 years I have to know the bible from front to back, but I do have things I have studied in depth more than others.. Mathew 24...All of Revelation and Daniel along with the Creation account. I am currently in an in depth study on Ezekiel. 

As per the Remnant in Revelation chapter 12, that is not Israel. The Remnant is the CHRISTIAN CHURCH who did not get Raptured but became Christians after the Rapture. Remnant means a SMALL PART OF.....Something...... not a whole, and if you read Rev. 12:17 the REMNANT are those that have the TESTIMONY of Jesus Christ, notice the WOMAN (Israel) is protected, but the REMNANT is not.  

And people are allowed to REPENT after the Rapture and become Christians, they are the Martyrs under the Alter in the 5th Seal. THAT IN NO WAY says there is no Rapture, it says just the opposite, IF you listen to the small whisper.....they are a Remnant which means a small part that is left.................

rem·nant

ˈremnənt/

noun

1.

a small remaining quantity of something.

How can it be a REMNANT if there has been no Rapture? It can't be.  You have been taught a falsehood brother, and it seems legit, even though all the proof points in another direction. We Marry the Lamb in Rev. 19 and COME BACK with Jesus on White Horses, where the Anti-Christ and his armies await us ON EARTH.......Meaning we were Raptured well before this event ever happened. 

13 hours ago, wingnut- said:

But it does matter when it just can't be the case.  Yes, we indeed do have the Word of God.  No, the word rapture never appears once in scripture.  No, it does not come before the second coming because it is the second coming.  The second coming is the only event spoken of by Paul or any of the other NT writers.

 

We can use Harpazo the Greek Word if you insist. The Latin Word used in the Vulgate to interpret Harpazo was Rapio, which means Rapture in English. The English bibles used a CATCHING AWAY/Being Seized up by God. 

You do know Jesus started with an I in the Greek, it was something like Iglioos. The Trinity is never mentioned in the bible. Harpazo means RAPTURED. To me that argument has always been nonsensical.

13 hours ago, wingnut- said:

I never said Revelation is in chronological order, we agree on that.  I said Matthew 24 is in chronological order.

 

That's MY POINT................Maybe Jesus wanted it that way. 

 

13 hours ago, wingnut- said:

No, it is not.  Hopefully after you read what I have offered to you, you will reconsider your thoughts on this.  Again I apologize for sounding harsh, but as a brother in Christ I strongly urge you to not think you know more than Jesus.

God bless

Matthew 24:32-44 is the Rapture.............Matthew 24:27-31 is the Second Coming. What can I say, you just don't believe in a pre-tribulation rapture. So you can't agree with me, OK....That's fine. But there is a pre-tribulation rapture, you better be ready, cause we gonna tie you up and take you with us..........against your on will........:D

Edited by Revelation Man
Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Royal Member
  • Followers:  39
  • Topic Count:  101
  • Topics Per Day:  0.02
  • Content Count:  7,673
  • Content Per Day:  1.32
  • Reputation:   7,358
  • Days Won:  67
  • Joined:  04/22/2008
  • Status:  Offline

3 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

And..........you just proved absolutely NOTHING to me with that Scripture. Maybe you didn't read my last post or it didn't register with you. Maybe Jesus didn't want to teach anyone about the Rapture except Paul. (so how would Matthew understand?)

 

Matthew was no more than an instrument, God is the author, Jesus is the Word of God.  So it wasn't written by Matthew, his understanding is irrelevant.  If the passage from II Timothy 3:16 means nothing to you, I am at a loss for words.

 

19 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

 Revelation is NOT IN CHRONOLOGICAL ORDER as I stated before, proving scripture doesn't have to be in order.

 

For the third time I will say this again.  I have never once stated that Revelation is chronological, in fact I have stated the opposite now for the third time.  If you wish to keep saying this, please quote where I said it.

 

24 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

You can't know how it was written,

 

Of course I can, Jesus is the Word of God.  And again, the passage from II Timothy 3:16 states that rather plainly.  "All scripture is God-breathed" is the phrase translated in most versions of the bible.

 

29 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

if it was said in that order then Jesus could have

 

Ummmm if and could are pretty good indicators that you are reaching, which is understandable considering that you are trying to argue against scripture.

 

33 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

because most Jews will go through the Tribulation. 

 

No, 2/3 of them are not going to go through it, as scripture clearly states.  Prophecy comes from God, and so far He has been spot on, no point in doubting Him now.  This statement is ironic considering your argument that I quoted you on above about how scripture isn't always chronological (the one where you incorrectly said I claimed Revelation was chronological), which I agree with, particularly in the area of prophecy.  You want to argue in your favor for it on a statement I didn't make, but dismiss this truth when it puts a major hole in your theory.  Anyway, here it is again.

 

Zechariah 13:And it shall come to pass in all the land,”
Says the Lord,
That two-thirds in it shall be cut off and die,
But one–third shall be left in it:
9 I will bring the one–third through the fire,
Will refine them as silver is refined,
And test them as gold is tested.

They will call on My name,
And I will answer them.
I will say, ‘This is My people’;
And each one will say, ‘The Lord is my God.’”

 

2/3 cut off and die, 1/3 He will bring through the fire.  The beginning of this segment of prophecy says strike the shepherd and the sheep will be scattered.  If Jesus is the shepherd at this point as you claim, exactly where do we read about Jesus getting struck and having His sheep scatter on the day of the Lord?  This is referencing the numerous OT prophecies regarding what happens when Jerusalem falls, also found in Revelation 11 and in Zechariah 11.  Look at Zechariah 11 first, where it speaks of the shepherds and the staffs.

 

Zechariah  11:17 “Woe to the worthless shepherd,
Who leaves the flock!
A sword shall be against his arm
And against his right eye;
His arm shall completely wither,
And his right eye shall be totally blinded.”

 

Revelation 11:But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it has been given to the Gentiles. And they will tread the holy city underfoot for forty-two months.

 

42 months, the exact same amount of time mentioned in Revelation 12, 3 1/2 years.  This is when the two witnesses arrive in Jerusalem for 1260 days, then they are killed, and 3 1/2 days later they will go with everyone else at the first resurrection.  This is what you like to refer to as the rapture, but really it is a resurrection.  Note what is said when they are taken up in verse 12 of chapter 11, "Come up here."  Then up to heaven in a cloud.... sound familiar.  Severe earthquake follows, 2nd woe is past, 3rd woe comes quickly.  The timing is kinda important wouldn't you agree?  For now though, best to go back to the start of the last 3 1/2 years again.

 

Revelation 12:13 Now when the dragon saw that he had been cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male Child. 

 

See here, let's examine your claim in regards to the woman.  The woman gave birth to the male child.  Jesus was born a Jew, the woman is Israel.  The church did not give birth to Jesus, Jesus gave birth to the church.  Your claim is completely backward.  Let's go back to the beginning of chapter 12 for clarity.

 

Revelation 12  

Now a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a garland of twelve stars. Then being with child, she cried out in labor and in pain to give birth.

And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great, fiery red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and seven diadems on his heads. His tail drew a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was ready to give birth, to devour her Child as soon as it was born. She bore a male Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her Child was caught up to God and His throne. Then the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there one thousand two hundred and sixty days.

 

The woman has a garland of 12 stars, this is a representation of the 12 tribes of Israel.  Satan via King Herod tries to have Jesus killed at birth, which is why he was born in Bethlehem, in a manger.  We know it is Jesus because He will rule the nations with an iron scepter, and He was caught up to God and His throne.  Again, we see the 1260 days, or 3 1/2 years, pointing us to the fact that we are still talking about the same woman and child later in the chapter.  And again, the church did not give birth to Jesus, nor do the 12 tribes of Israel have anything to do with the church.  The woman is Israel, no matter how inconvenient that is or how uncomfortable Christians find it.  One more look at the conclusion of Revelation 12.

 

Revelation 12:13 Now when the dragon saw that he had been cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male Child.

 

Note the persecution part in verse 13, this is where the 2/3 are cut off and die as Jerusalem is given over to the Gentiles and trampled underfoot.

 

Revelation 12:14 But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent.

 

3 1/2 years the woman (Israel) is taken aside and protected as promised through the prophets Isaiah, as well as Hosea.

 

Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

 

With Israel out of the way, there is only one group that fits the description of having the testimony of Jesus Christ.  It may be an uncomfortable reality, but it is what it is.  Pretending the church gave birth to Jesus isn't going to change that, dismissing what the OT prophets said to Israel isn't going to change that either.  Hosea and Isaiah both speak of the same path, the valley of Achor, the point is the Jews will know which way to go because the OT prophets told them the way.  They do not believe in the NT, therefore what is written in the NT is written for us.  In Matthew 24 Jesus is speaking to the church, His disciples are the people He entrusted to start the church, and that is who He is speaking to, privately.

 

Matthew 24: “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. 10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

 

The gospel message is preached by the church, not by Israel as they still reject it, with the exception of Messianic Jews of course.

 

2 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

We can use Harpazo the Greek Word if you insist. The Latin Word used in the Vulgate to interpret Harpazo was Rapio, which means Rapture in English. The English bibles used a CATCHING AWAY/Being Seized up by God.

 

I hate to point out that despite all of the new translations in circulation you still will not find the word rapture in your bible.  The translation is gathering or catching away and still remains that.  It is always found in conjunction with the second coming, every single time it appears.  Call it rapture if you like but there is no denying that it goes hand in hand with His coming.  There is also no denying that where Jesus places it in Matthew is precisely where He places it in Revelation.

 

2 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

The Remnant is the CHRISTIAN CHURCH

 

2 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

the WOMAN (Israel) is protected, but the REMNANT is not.

 

Really?  Not according to scripture.  You seem a bit confused, throughout your post you have flipped who the woman is, and are incorrect as to who the remnant is as you can read below.

 

Isaiah 10:20 And it shall come to pass in that day
That the remnant of Israel,
And such as have escaped of the house of Jacob,
Will never again depend on him who defeated them,
But will depend on the Lord, the Holy One of Israel, in truth.
21 The remnant will return, the remnant of Jacob,
To the Mighty God.
22 For though your people, O Israel, be as the sand of the sea,
A remnant of them will return;
The destruction decreed shall overflow with righteousness.
23 For the Lord God of hosts
Will make a determined end
In the midst of all the land.

 

2 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

they are a Remnant which means a small part that is left................

 

Yes I know what remnant means, refer to verse 22 from above...... though your people, O Israel, be as the sand of the sea (that's a lot), a remnant of them will return. (that's a small part that is left)

 

2 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

 You have been taught a falsehood brother, and it seems legit, even though all the proof points in another direction.

 

Interesting, the Holy Spirit led me to my understanding..... and I gotta say, the proof is not pointing in the direction of the theory that requires one to use words or phrases like "if" and "maybe" and "could have" and "I think" or requires one to question whether the Word of God knew what He wanted written.  When it comes down to man's word or God's word, I am going with God every time, no offense intended.

 

3 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

As per the Remnant in Revelation chapter 12, that is not Israel.

 

Of course it is, because Israel is the woman, and the woman is protected.  The offspring are not protected, that would be the church, as Jesus gave birth to the church (hence the term offspring).  It is not the other way around as you proposed previously, and the church hold fast to the testimony of Jesus, not Israel.

 

3 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

being a preacher of 30 years I have to know the bible from front to back

 

Not relevant to the conversation, here on worthy we are all on equal footing as clearly stated when you joined, hence the exclusion of using terms like doctor, reverend, or pastor in your username.  I know the bible as well, however that does not mean I have everything figured out in regards to the end times, nor does anyone else for that matter.  Unless of course someone can prove that they know what the seven thunders said, which I can't imagine how that would be possible to prove.

 

3 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

But there is a pre-tribulation rapture, you better be ready

 

If there were a pre-tribulation rapture, what would I have to be prepared for exactly?  Being removed from harm?  Doesn't really add up when you consider what Jesus and the apostles went through, or the thousands of Christians who are already being persecuted around the world for His names sake.  While we live in our comfortable little environments I often wonder, what would they say about your theory?  Would they ask what makes you more entitled to being whisked away than they are?  Would they question God in regards to His Word stating that He is no respector of persons?  Or about how He doesn't show favoritism?  Maybe they would ask Him about all the scriptures talking about how angry He is with the gentile nations who think they have peace and safety?

I am fairly certain of what isn't going to happen, so I guess I am more prepared than most.

God bless

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...