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Oneness claims that John 14:10 states that Jesus is God the Father


Limey_Bob

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1 hour ago, wingnut- said:

I didn't separate them, God did as clearly defined in the first two verses of the bible.  There is God in verse 1, and the Spirit of God in verse 2.

Genesis 1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.

 

Not God, but the Spirit of God, also known as the Holy Spirit.

God bless

Then again I agree 

God was in heaven and his spirit from him moved upon the waters. This spirit is God but not a separate being from him or another entity.

 

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9 minutes ago, Bible_Gazer said:

Then again I agree 

God was in heaven and his spirit from him moved upon the waters. This spirit is God but not a separate being from him or another entity.

 

Not entirely, I want to refer back to what you said in the previous post.

So God can only be in one place and he used his spirit to  make and to move things  for him, but that spirit does not have a mind of its own because it is just a spirit from him.

The Spirit of God didn't make things though, His Spirit hovered over what He had made.  Where we differ is that you have decided to set limitations on God, as far as what He can or cannot do.  Scripture offers no support for this claim, rather the opposite.  Example being, if I am a believer, and you are a believer, the Holy Spirit dwells in each.  We are not in the same place though, so God can be in more than one place at the same time.

God bless

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Yet we are a piece of God living here. 

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37 minutes ago, wingnut- said:

 

The Spirit of God didn't make things though, His Spirit hovered over what He had made.  Where we differ is that you have decided to set limitations on God, as far as what He can or cannot do.  Scripture offers no support for this claim, rather the opposite.  Example being, if I am a believer, and you are a believer, the Holy Spirit dwells in each.  We are not in the same place though, so God can be in more than one place at the same time.

God bless

Yes, God can be in us both in different places, its not his body that is in us but his spirit is, so seeing that the spirit is him.

We have a part of God in us, the  gift of the Holy Ghost.

The spirit has not a mind of its own, it come from the mind of God.

When God gives different kinds of spiritual gifts unto men, he uses his spirit  in a different way to make those operations to work, God is in control of those gifts by his spirit.

I am just saying is that God and his spirit is not separate, its still one being operating.

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2 hours ago, Bible_Gazer said:

Yes, God can be in us both in different places, its not his body that is in us but his spirit is, so seeing that the spirit is him.

We have a part of God in us, the  gift of the Holy Ghost.

The spirit has not a mind of its own, it come from the mind of God.

When God gives different kinds of spiritual gifts unto men, he uses his spirit  in a different way to make those operations to work, God is in control of those gifts by his spirit.

I am just saying is that God and his spirit is not separate, its still one being operating.

I agree.  While the Holy Spirit is in every believer wherever they are, God the Father is still sitting on the throne.  This is what makes them separate, and how I understand the Trinity.  So basically we believe the same thing, we are simply defining it differently.  Thank you for indulging my curiosity, I've enjoyed our conversation.

God bless

 

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On 3/30/2017 at 11:35 AM, Limey_Bob said:

‘I and my Father are one.’  (John 10:30, KJV).

 

‘ego kai ho patar ev esmen: (John 10:30: The Nestles Greek text).

 

‘I ((Subject)) and ((conjunction)) my Father ((object)) are ((verb 1st-person-plural)) one ((adjective)).’  (John 10:30, KJV).

 

Oneness Pentecostals (Apostolics), and I used to be one back in the 1980s, would need to explain the use of the verb ‘to be,’ which a first person plural at John 10:30; ‘I and my Father (we) are one.’ This verse does not record Jesus as saying; ‘I am the Father,’ for such a direct claim by Jesus to be God the Father, would have included the verb ‘to be’ in the first person singular: ‘I am.’ But Jesus at John 10:30 instead applies a plural verb to both the Father and also to the Son; ‘are’ as in ‘we are,’ which is the verb ‘to be,’ (esmen) a present tense, in first person plural. This is why he specifically claimed to be God’s Son, and not God the Father himself at John 10:36; ‘Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?’

 

Secondly, why is the Greek neuter word ‘hen’ for ‘one’ used at John 10:30 rather than the masculine Greek word for “one,” which is the Greek ‘heis?’ This masculine word is always used in the Greek, to describe God as ‘one’ in the strictly numeric sense, and so logically it would be the only word which Jesus could use to claim that he is himself really God the Father in an absolute and literal sense. So the neuter word ‘hen,’ just means to be ‘one in agreement’ or to be ‘one in unity’ with another person, it’s used that way at 1st Corinthians 3:8, where Paul planted and Apollos watered so that were one (hen), which doesn’t mean that Paul is claiming that he was Apollos! Paul is just saying that they worked together as a team, but not that they were both the same one person! As a former Oneness Pentecostal, allow me to warn people against this error, which is sweeping through and taking over nominally Trinitarian Pentecostal and Charismatic Churches around the world. I do have a video on my own YouTube channel of me explaining this verse, however, I do not know if I am permitted to post this here, possibly the admins could help me with the rules.

Matthew 1:23 proves Jesus was to be God the Father even before he was conceived upon his virgin mother. 

"The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel" (which means "God with us").

Jesus, or Immanuel, himself said more than enough times to convince his fellows that he was also God the Father. In fact, it was that profession before the temple court that caused the Sadducee to want him crucified for the offense of blasphemy.

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I am not here to participate in the debate of the trinity but have a related questions for all of you who believe yourself experts on the matter.

What changes when one believes one way or another?

How is life on earth affected when one believes trinity? If non Trinitarian?

What I am looking for is the purpose of the attack on truth.  What is the gain?

An attack on the resurrection can be an attack on our lifestyle for Paul said if the do not rise then we might as well eat drink and be merry but we do not because of the resurrection of the dead.

What is at stake here?  What changes with life when one believes trinity?  When one does not?

For if there is no affect then the only thing at stake is unity.  The doctrine only serves a purpose of division.

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Ex 24:9-11 Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy
of the elders of Israel: And they saw the God of Israel: and there was
under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it
were the body of heaven in his clearness. And upon the nobles of the
children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw God, and did eat
and drink.
KJV
John 6:44-46 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent
me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in
the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore
that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. Not
that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath
seen the Father.
KJV
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~
Moses and friends saw the God of Israel and were not harmed.
Jesus says that no man has seen the father except He that came from
Him.
So it seems to me that the Father that Jesus speaks of is not what that
the Nation of Israel interfaced with in the Old Testament.
Looking further:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
John 1:1-10 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God,
and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All
things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that
was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the
light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. There
was a man sent from God, whose name was John. The same came for a
witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might
believe. He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that
Light. That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh
into the world. He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and
the world knew him not.
KJV
John 8:52-58 Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a
devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man
keep my saying, he shall never taste of death. Art thou greater than
our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom
makest thou thyself? Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is
nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is
your God: Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should
say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him,
and keep his saying. Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he
saw it, and was glad.
Trinity Thoughts
Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and
hast thou seen Abraham? Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say
unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
KJV
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
It seems to me to be saying that Jesus was what the Nation of Israel
interfaced with in the Old Testament days. Jesus in this form was with
the Father from the beginning.
It seems to me that the people of the Old Testament days were not aware
of the Father except for what they saw through the Jesus in the form he
existed in before he became flesh.
Further:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Phil 2:5-11Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with
God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a
servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in
fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death,
even the death of the cross. Wherefore God also hath highly exalted
him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name
of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in
earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess
that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
KJV
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
It appears to me that Jesus as the word was that which the Father
worked through to manifest Himself to the people of the Old Testament
times. Jesus did not regard himself to want to be the equal to the
Father so He took the form of a human to further the works of the
Father on earth.
Jesus was deity by being in the form of God, but it was the Father that
did the work through Him when he was the Word. It appears that the only
thing that has changed is Jesus is now flesh working the same way only
as a man. The Father exercises His will through Jesus, now in the
fleshly body.
`~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
John 14:10-11 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the
Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself:
but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. Believe me that
I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the
very works' sake.
KJV
John 17:20-26 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which
shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as
thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in
us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory
which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as
we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in
one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved
them, as thou hast loved me. Father, I will that they also, whom thou
hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory,
which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of
the world. O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I
have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me. And I
have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love
wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.
KJV
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
It seems to me that Jesus just extended the conduit from Him to us for
the Father to do His work through Jesus to us so we could know the
Father as the Father knows us. Thus we now can do the work of the
Father. I believe this is the path and workings of the Holy Spirit
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`
1 Cor 15:20-28 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the
firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man
came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so
in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order:
Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to
God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all
authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies
under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he
hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are
put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all
things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then
shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things
under him, that God may be all in all.
KJV
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Jesus, before His ascension told the Apostles that all power and
authority had been given to Him. After he has subdued everything Jesus
will also be subjected to the One who subjected all things to
Him........ The Father.
I don't see the Son always being equal with the Father, either when He
was the word nor in the flesh. He will also be subject to the Father
after He does the job of bringing the kingdom into it's full power over
all and giving it to the Father.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
1 Cor 8:4-6 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are
offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the
world, and that there is none other God but one. For though there be
that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods
many, and lords many,) But to us there is but one God, the Father, of
whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom
are all things, and we by him.
KJV
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
But to us, there is but one God, The Father of whom all things
came from......
And one Lord, Jesus whom we call the Christ, through which all things
came including us.
And we have the Holy Spirit which was sent to us from the Father at the
request of Jesus.
Interestingly, all three are one in thought, one in purpose, and one in
action. We can't interface with the Father without being indwelt by
the Holy Spirit, and we can't have the Holy Spirit without the
sacrifice and request of Jesus, and we couldn't have had Jesus without
the Father asking Him to do what he has done for us.
You have to have all three or none. And thus they are one.
 

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56 minutes ago, Fridaywinds said:

Matthew 1:23 proves Jesus was to be God the Father even before he was conceived upon his virgin mother. 

"The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel" (which means "God with us").

Jesus, or Immanuel, himself said more than enough times to convince his fellows that he was also God the Father. In fact, it was that profession before the temple court that caused the Sadducee to want him crucified for the offense of blasphemy.

To be one with another does not equate as being the very same person.  That is where Oneness goes wrong.  Oneness ignores the following scripture:

1 John 5:6-8

This is He who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ; not only by water, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is truth.  For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.  And there are three that bear witness on earth: the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree as one.

Notice scripture tells us there are three entities, not one entity appearing as three different entities.

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29 minutes ago, OneLight said:

To be one with another does not equate as being the very same person.  That is where Oneness goes wrong.  Oneness ignores the following scripture:

1 John 5:6-8

This is He who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ; not only by water, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is truth.  For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.  And there are three that bear witness on earth: the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree as one.

Notice scripture tells us there are three entities, not one entity appearing as three different entities.

:emot-heartbeat:

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