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Why anti-Trinitarianism is not biblical


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Remember, this isn't one divine individual in three modes. They interact. They are contemporary. One sends the other two into the world. Two submit to one.

Each do unique things.

Jesus is Creator / Savior.

The Holy Spirit is the Revelator / Author of the Bible

The Father is the Ultimate Authority / Creator of only the body of Jesus.

 

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Imagine for a moment an extraterrestrial being (humor me for the illustration purposes)... that is three individuals making up one being or unit. ← and they are the only one of their kind.

The closest thing to that on Earth is a family. And at one point Adam, Eve, and Cain fully qualified in this example as they were the only one of their kind. A family of humans.

Take from the equation the need to procreate, for spirits do not reproduce, and certainly God does not (Isaiah 43:10-11). Family would take on a different definition and meaning. ← I say this only for the opposition that tries to interfere with people's understanding of this by misquoting me (I do not say God is a Family) but if God were... it would not be in the same sense of daddy mommy kiddo.  Nnn-kay?

BTW God and angels are extraterrestrials (not of this world). ;)

 

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So it really comes down to accepting the biblical evidence as fact.

We accept that dad is our father and mom is our mother and on and on...

But God, for some reason must bow to our opinions, feelings, interpretations...

ick!

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On 5/25/2017 at 6:17 AM, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, shiloh357.

Yes, the Ruwach haQodesh IS a Person; He is GOD, YHWH Elohiym, the ONE GOD, who sent His Ruwach! The ONE GOD, who is Yeshua`s Father, can be communed/fellowshipped with.  The ONE GOD has a mind; the ONE GOD can be grieved, the ONE GOD inspires, the ONE GOD guides, convicts of sin, teaches and comforts.

You FRACTURE GOD when you split Him into the Father and the Holy Spirit! Yeshua` IS the Son of GOD and He came from the Father for He was the WORD of John 1:1 (and still is).

 

No one has seen the Holy Spirit. 

Stephan only sow God, and JESUS CHRIST. 

Just an observation. 

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On 5/28/2017 at 2:29 AM, shiloh357 said:

Rejection of the Trinity isn't a "full knowledge of the truth."  The Trinity is functionally apparent in the New Testament and as a Trinitarian, I am embracing a fuller knowledge of the truth.

The Trinity doctrine is based on God's word, not merely an interpretation of it.   If all we had were propositional claims, then you could make that argument, but the function of the Trinity is inescapable, so rejecting the Trinity isn't rejecting an interpretation.  It is rejecting the substance of Scripture. 

Shalom, shiloh357.

That's YOUR take on the "substance of Scripture."

On 5/28/2017 at 2:29 AM, shiloh357 said:

You have denied the deity of Jesus a number of times on this board.

So you're saying that Jesus, at some point, ceased being God?  Do you have any idea how absurd that is?

Jesus is God because that is who He is and has always been.   The Bible affirms Him as God in many places and Jesus is omniscient through the Holy Spirit.   He promises to always be with us, His Body, until the end of time.   Jesus is always with us and that promises isn't limited to a particular place.   He is with us no matter where we are in the world.   The believers in China, Russia, the Middle East, South America, the US, everywhere.   Jesus' promise to be with us is true for all of us, at the same time, no matter where we are.   He promises to abide, to dwell in each us.  Only an omnipresent Jesus could do that.   And Jesus hears all of our prayers, only an all knowing Jesus can be our High Priest and be our advocate on an individual basis.   Jesus holds each of in His Hand and no one take us out of His hand.

So you're claim that Jesus is no longer omnipresent or omniscient really doesn't hold water.  

Well, then, you'll have to change the definition of "God," based on His attributes. Yeshua` is NEVER called "God"; at most, He is called "the SON of God." And, HE preferred to refer to Himself as "the Son of man."

IF you're going to bring in the Holy Spirit of God, then you must also bring in "the Spirit of Christ." So, does that make FOUR?! After all, the Bible treats them as two different "spirits!"

On 5/28/2017 at 2:29 AM, shiloh357 said:

Jesus gave up, temporarily, some divine prerogatives, but He did not cease being God.  Jesus is still just as much God as He ever was.  Jesus did not give up anything that made Him God when He came to earth.    John 1:1-3 affirms that Jesus is still God.

You might hate that statement but it is true.   Jesus fully man and fully God while on earth.  You could say it this way:  Jesus was truly God and truly man.  A mere man could not have affected salvation for us.  When Jesus went to the cross He was both God and man on the cross paying for our sins.

Actually, He did. He was now a BODY that was limited in its size, mass, and time. He had a birth; He had a death. Through God's grace, He had a resurrection. He was limited in EVERY way that a human being is limited!

Now, in His resurrected, physical body ("flesh and bones" Luke 24:39), He continues to be limited in His size, mass, and time. He has currently left earth and won't return until God the Father says it's time (Acts 1:6-7). Meanwhile, He is preparing a place for us in the New Jerusalem, His Father's Bedouin tent (Rev. 21:1-4), His Father's house (John 14:1-3), and shall be there until the Jews of Jerusalem can welcome Him back as God's Messiah (Matt. 23:37-39 cf. Psalm 118:26).

WHEN He returns, He will establish His Kingdom - the Kingdom of God over which He shall preside as King, in the same way that His ancestors, King David and King Solomon, did (Luke 1:30-33). He shall reign over the earth as the King of kings until all of His enemies are subdued (1 Cor. 15:20-28) and that reign shall last 1,000 years (Rev. 20:1-6).

The fact that He shall subdue His enemies is not only found in 1 Cor. 15:20-28, but also in Psalm 110:1-7 and in Psalm 2:1-12. And, terrorists will NEVER be a problem again (Isa. 54:17)!

On 5/28/2017 at 2:29 AM, shiloh357 said:

But trying to portray the Holy Spirit as the breath of God and only the breath of God, you were presenting the Holy Spirit as impersonal.  The Bible makes a clear distinction between God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.    Nowhere in the Bible are the Father and Holy Spirit ever treated as the same Person.  That would be false teaching to say they are the same Person. 

No, because the Bible will frequently use the words "the Holy Spirit" to REFER to God, and God (Yeshua`s Father) is NOT impersonal (as Islam's "Allah" is). Furthermore, we are told that the Father (God) sent His Holy Spirit upon His Son at His baptism (immersion).

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What is this sign , and why was given to Stephan at the time just before his death. 

He said he sow JESUS CHRIST sitted on the right hand of God. 

We know that Stephan knew JESUS CHRIST before and after the resurrection, and he can recognize him, and he can positive identify him. 

Stephan did not live to give us a detailed account of what he actually sow as to form at least some picture of Jesus in our mind. 

Stephan also sow the Heavenly Father, he said I sow JESUS CHRIST standing in the right hand of God,  he said he sow God, hope he could have lived so he can tell more about what he sow. 

Stephan he did not say anything about the Holy Spirit. 

He never said that he sow the Holy Spirit. 

I don't know of anyone who has claimed to have seen the Holy Spirit. 

As Jesus said the Holy Spirit is like the wind, you feel the presence, of the Spirit , like we feel the wind, and we feel the fire of the Holy Spirit, like when it set the disciples on fire on the day of Penticost and the went out to declare the Good news. And the Holy Spirit has the thoughts of JESUS CHRIST even though is not the Spirit of JESUS CHRIST. 

We feel the fire of the Holy Spirit in our hearts , like hot coals, but we do not burned. 

The Holy Spirit can come also with anger upon us and disapproval, like a consuming fire. 

Like with Moses, regarding his son's sircoumsission. 

But we can not see it, as if it was in some form , so that we can say "the person" of the Holy Spirit , and not the person of Jesus Christ ,or the person of God and no one have ever said that they have seen the Holy Spirit. 

 the Holy Spirit in the OT, which also prophesized about the CHRIST must have been the Spirit of the Lord God, who would be the CHRIST.

In the O T we did not have Two Gods. 

The Lord God and the Holy Spirit God .

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Guest shiloh357
3 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, shiloh357.

That's YOUR take on the "substance of Scripture."

 

No, it is not my take on it.  We know from Scripture that The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit preexist creation and were present at creation and all three participated in the creation of the world.    All three were present at Jesus' baptism.  Jesus was sent by the Father and Jesus spoke of the Father and the Holy as separate  Persons.   The Holy Spirit is a separate Person from both Jesus and the Father as demonstrated in Scripture, and all three are called God in the Scriptures.    So the substance of Scripture is on my side, not yours.

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Well, then, you'll have to change the definition of "God," based on His attributes. Yeshua` is NEVER called "God"; at most, He is called "the SON of God." And, HE preferred to refer to Himself as "the Son of man."

I don't have redefine anything.   Jesus is called "God"  in John 1:1-3  Jesus is called both the Word of God and He is called God.  

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.  Now in that verse, you see the word "was" is used three times.   The word "was,"  in the Greek is in the imperfect.    Because it is imperfect, that indicates that it is a continuous present state, meaning that Jesus was God, Jesus is God and Jesus will be God.  The imperfect usage of the word dispells your claim that Jesus is never called God.    John's Gospel begins by calling Jesus, "God." 

The same was in the beginning with God.  All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

The same imperfect use of "was"  is contained in v. 2.  He is in a continuous state of being with God, and yet is God.  All things were made by Jesus, according to verse 3.   Jesus is the Creator of Genesis 1.   According to John 1:1-3, Col. 1:15-18 and Hebrews 1:1-2, Jesus is God the Creator.

As for the term "Son of God,"   That term is also an affirmation of Jesus deity, and is calling Jesus "God."   "Son of,"  is a comparative term in Hebrew thought.   Jesus referred to the religious leaders as "the sons of hell."   He referred to James and John as the "sons of thunder."   He referred to Judas as the "son of perdition." 

John is careful to use the phrase "The Son of God"  in a way that is very unique to Jesus.  The Greek bears it out better than the English.   When Jesus referred to Himself as The Son of God, it was considered blasphemy.   When Jesus said that He and the Father are one, they were going to stone Him for blasphemy.   They claimed that Jesus was making Himself God and Jesus didn't correct their understanding; rather, he doubled down on His claim to be God.

The phrase "Son of Man"  is a little different in that it is a Messianic title that Jesus appropriated to Himself from Daniel 7:12.   He used it in a unique way that only ever used in connection to Jesus.  Jesus was using the title "Son of Man" in a way that the Jews would have recognized as referring to the Daniel prophecy and would have understood Jesus to be claiming to the Messiah.   They would NOT have seen it as a claim to simply being  a man.

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IF you're going to bring in the Holy Spirit of God, then you must also bring in "the Spirit of Christ." So, does that make FOUR?! After all, the Bible treats them as two different "spirits!"

No, the Spirit of Christ and the Holy Spirit are one and the same (Rom. 8:9).  They are equated together as the same.  Only sloppy exegesis would see them as being different.

Quote

 

Actually, He did. He was now a BODY that was limited in its size, mass, and time. He had a birth; He had a death. Through God's grace, He had a resurrection. He was limited in EVERY way that a human being is limited!

Now, in His resurrected, physical body ("flesh and bones" Luke 24:39), He continues to be limited in His size, mass, and time. He has currently left earth and won't return until God the Father says it's time (Acts 1:6-7). Meanwhile, He is preparing a place for us in the New Jerusalem, His Father's Bedouin tent (Rev. 21:1-4), His Father's house (John 14:1-3), and shall be there until the Jews of Jerusalem can welcome Him back as God's Messiah (Matt. 23:37-39 cf. Psalm 118:26).

WHEN He returns, He will establish His Kingdom - the Kingdom of God over which He shall preside as King, in the same way that His ancestors, King David and King Solomon, did (Luke 1:30-33). He shall reign over the earth as the King of kings until all of His enemies are subdued (1 Cor. 15:20-28) and that reign shall last 1,000 years (Rev. 20:1-6).

The fact that He shall subdue His enemies is not only found in 1 Cor. 15:20-28, but also in Psalm 110:1-7 and in Psalm 2:1-12. And, terrorists will NEVER be a problem again (Isa. 54:17)!

 

And yet, Jesus will never leave us or forsake us and He is with us all, every Christian, whether we are in NYC, Toronto, Moscow, Seoul, Sidney, London, Tokyo, etc.  He watches us, hears us, no matter where we are.   His body isn't limiting Him as you claim.   Jesus fully man and fully God and can operate in that reality unlimited.   How?   He is God, He can make it happen and it is beyond my ability to explain.   That's one of the things about being God, He is able to live and operate in a reality that transcends what is possible in our plain of reality.

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No, because the Bible will frequently use the words "the Holy Spirit" to REFER to God, and God (Yeshua`s Father) is NOT impersonal (as Islam's "Allah" is). Furthermore, we are told that the Father (God) sent His Holy Spirit upon His Son at His baptism (immersion).

The Holy Spirit is referred to as both God and as a Person separate from the Father and the Son in the totality of Scripture. 

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On 5/30/2017 at 4:28 AM, shiloh357 said:

No, it is not my take on it.  We know from Scripture that The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit preexist creation and were present at creation and all three participated in the creation of the world.

Shalom, shiloh357.

Oh, sure it is. You know from Scripture that the Father (GOD) preexisted Creation from Genesis 1-2. You know from John 1 that the WORD (who was with the GOD and who was GOD) and that the WORD was made flesh and was then named "Yeshua`," but where do you find the "Holy Spirit preexisted Creation?" Just curious about your perception.

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All three were present at Jesus' baptism.  Jesus was sent by the Father and Jesus spoke of the Father and the Holy as separate  Persons.   The Holy Spirit is a separate Person from both Jesus and the Father as demonstrated in Scripture, and all three are called God in the Scriptures.    So the substance of Scripture is on my side, not yours.

I don't have redefine anything.   Jesus is called "God"  in John 1:1-3  Jesus is called both the Word of God and He is called God.

No, Jesus is not called "God" in John 1:1-3, nor is He called the Word of God. To the contrary, and this is important, the WORD was called God and then the WORD was made flesh and THEN He was called "Yeeshuwa`" (or "Jesus," a bad transliteration and bad pronunciation today of the Greek transliteration ["Ieesous" pronounced "yay-SOOS"] of "Yeshua`" [pronounced "Yay-SHUW-`ah"]) after He was born. At one time, "Jesus" was pronounced "Yay-SOOS," like the Greek, but it has taken on an ENTIRELY DIFFERENT pronunciation today.

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In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.  Now in that verse, you see the word "was" is used three times.   The word "was,"  in the Greek is in the imperfect.    Because it is imperfect, that indicates that it is a continuous present state, meaning that Jesus was God, Jesus is God and Jesus will be God.  The imperfect usage of the word dispells your claim that Jesus is never called God.    John's Gospel begins by calling Jesus, "God." 

Okay, I'm alright with that; "In the beginning was being the Word, and the Word was being with God, and the Word was being God." OR, "In the beginning the Word used to be, and the Word used to be with God and the Word used to be God." That's what the imperfect translates to in English. Jesus IS NEVER called God; however, the WORD IS called God. The Word, on the other hand, WAS MADE FLESH. THEN, He was named "Yeshua`." That's not just verbal gymnastics; that's being true to the Scriptures and their timing!

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The same was in the beginning with God.  All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

The same imperfect use of "was"  is contained in v. 2.  He is in a continuous state of being with God, and yet is God.  All things were made by Jesus, according to verse 3.   Jesus is the Creator of Genesis 1.   According to John 1:1-3, Col. 1:15-18 and Hebrews 1:1-2, Jesus is God the Creator.

No, all things were made by the Word. The Word is the Creator of Genesis 1.

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As for the term "Son of God,"   That term is also an affirmation of Jesus deity, and is calling Jesus "God."   "Son of,"  is a comparative term in Hebrew thought.   Jesus referred to the religious leaders as "the sons of hell."   He referred to James and John as the "sons of thunder."   He referred to Judas as the "son of perdition." 

Not really. That's an excuse for not knowing the reason that Yeshua` was called the Son of God, but it is not the true reason. The TRUE reason is found in 2 Samuel 7:14:

2 Samuel 7:8-17
8 Now therefore so shalt thou say unto my servant David, Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I took thee from the sheepcote, from following the sheep, to be ruler over my people, over Israel:
9 And I was with thee whithersoever thou wentest, and have cut off all thine enemies out of thy sight, and have made thee a great name, like unto the name of the great men that are in the earth.
10 Moreover I will appoint a place for my people Israel, and will plant them, that they may dwell in a place of their own, and move no more; neither shall the children of wickedness afflict them any more, as beforetime,
11 And as since the time that I commanded judges to be over my people Israel, and have caused thee to rest from all thine enemies. Also the LORD telleth thee that he will make thee an house.
12 And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom.
13 He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever.
14 I WILL BE HIS FATHER, AND HE SHALL BE MY SON. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men:
15 But my mercy shall not depart away from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away before thee.
16 And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: thy throne shall be established for ever.
17 According to all these words, and according to all this vision, so did Nathan speak unto David.
KJV

This promise (prophecy) is noted in two other places: 1 Chronicles 22:10 and 1 Chronicles 28:6:

1 Chronicles 22:7-16
7 And David said to Solomon, My son, as for me, it was in my mind to build an house unto the name of the LORD my God:
8 But the word of the LORD came to me, saying, Thou hast shed blood abundantly, and hast made great wars: thou shalt not build an house unto my name, because thou hast shed much blood upon the earth in my sight.
9 Behold, a son shall be born to thee, who shall be a man of rest; and I will give him rest from all his enemies round about: for his name shall be Solomon, and I will give peace and quietness unto Israel in his days.
10 He shall build an house for my name; and HE SHALL BE MY SON, AND I WILL BE HIS FATHER; and I will establish the throne of his kingdom over Israel for ever.
11 Now, my son, the LORD be with thee; and prosper thou, and build the house of the LORD thy God, as he hath said of thee.
12 Only the LORD give thee wisdom and understanding, and give thee charge concerning Israel, that thou mayest keep the law of the LORD thy God.
13 Then shalt thou prosper, if thou takest heed to fulfil the statutes and judgments which the LORD charged Moses with concerning Israel: be strong, and of good courage; dread not, nor be dismayed.
14 Now, behold, in my trouble I have prepared for the house of the LORD an hundred thousand talents of gold, and a thousand thousand talents of silver; and of brass and iron without weight; for it is in abundance: timber also and stone have I prepared; and thou mayest add thereto.
15 Moreover there are workmen with thee in abundance, hewers and workers of stone and timber, and all manner of cunning men for every manner of work.
16 Of the gold, the silver, and the brass, and the iron, there is no number. Arise therefore, and be doing, and the LORD be with thee.
KJV

1 Chronicles 28:2-21
2 Then David the king stood up upon his feet, and said, Hear me, my brethren, and my people: As for me, I had in mine heart to build an house of rest for the ark of the covenant of the LORD, and for the footstool of our God, and had made ready for the building:
3 But God said unto me, Thou shalt not build an house for my name, because thou hast been a man of war, and hast shed blood.
4 Howbeit the LORD God of Israel chose me before all the house of my father to be king over Israel for ever: for he hath chosen Judah to be the ruler; and of the house of Judah, the house of my father; and among the sons of my father he liked me to make me king over all Israel:
5 And of all my sons, (for the LORD hath given me many sons,) he hath chosen Solomon my son to sit upon the throne of the kingdom of the LORD over Israel.
6 And he said unto me, Solomon thy son, he shall build my house and my courts: for I HAVE CHOSEN HIM TO BE MY SON, AND I WILL BE HIS FATHER.
7 Moreover I will establish his kingdom for ever, if he be constant to do my commandments and my judgments, as at this day.
8 Now therefore in the sight of all Israel the congregation of the LORD, and in the audience of our God, keep and seek for all the commandments of the LORD your God: that ye may possess this good land, and leave it for an inheritance for your children after you for ever.
9 And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind: for the LORD searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: if thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever.
10 Take heed now; for the LORD hath chosen thee to build an house for the sanctuary: be strong, and do it.
11 Then David gave to Solomon his son the pattern of the porch, and of the houses thereof, and of the treasuries thereof, and of the upper chambers thereof, and of the inner parlours thereof, and of the place of the mercy seat,
12 And the pattern of all that he had by the spirit, of the courts of the house of the LORD, and of all the chambers round about, of the treasuries of the house of God, and of the treasuries of the dedicated things:
13 Also for the courses of the priests and the Levites, and for all the work of the service of the house of the LORD, and for all the vessels of service in the house of the LORD.
14 He gave of gold by weight for things of gold, for all instruments of all manner of service; silver also for all instruments of silver by weight, for all instruments of every kind of service:
15 Even the weight for the candlesticks of gold, and for their lamps of gold, by weight for every candlestick, and for the lamps thereof: and for the candlesticks of silver by weight, both for the candlestick, and also for the lamps thereof, according to the use of every candlestick.
16 And by weight he gave gold for the tables of shewbread, for every table; and likewise silver for the tables of silver:
17 Also pure gold for the fleshhooks, and the bowls, and the cups: and for the golden basons he gave gold by weight for every bason; and likewise silver by weight for every bason of silver:
18 And for the altar of incense refined gold by weight; and gold for the pattern of the chariot of the cherubims, that spread out their wings, and covered the ark of the covenant of the LORD.
19 All this, said David, the LORD made me understand in writing by his hand upon me, even all the works of this pattern.
20 And David said to Solomon his son, Be strong and of good courage, and do it: fear not, nor be dismayed: for the LORD God, even my God, will be with thee; he will not fail thee, nor forsake thee, until thou hast finished all the work for the service of the house of the LORD.
21 And, behold, the courses of the priests and the Levites, even they shall be with thee for all the service of the house of God: and there shall be with thee for all manner of workmanship every willing skilful man, for any manner of service: also the princes and all the people will be wholly at thy commandment.
KJV

Whereas this COULD have been talking about Shlomoh (Solomon) at the time, because Shlomoh did not adhere to the LORD with all His heart but multiplied to himself gold, horses, and wives, the 700 wives and 300 concubines turning his heart away from the LORD to worship idols and false gods, the prophecy passed on to the true Seed, the future Messiah (Anointed One), Yeshua`.

Deuteronomy 17:14-17
14 When thou art come unto the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, and shalt possess it, and shalt dwell therein, and shalt say, I will set a king over me, like as all the nations that are about me;
15 Thou shalt in any wise set him king over thee, whom the LORD thy God shall choose: one from among thy brethren shalt thou set king over thee: thou mayest not set a stranger over thee, which is not thy brother.
16 But he shall not multiply horses to himself, nor cause the people to return to Egypt, to the end that he should multiply horses: forasmuch as the Lord hath said unto you, Ye shall henceforth return no more that way.
17 Neither shall he multiply wives to himself, that his heart turn not away: neither shall he greatly multiply to himself silver and gold.
KJV

Sounds like God knew what was coming, doesn't it?

1 Kings 10:16-11:6
16 And king Solomon made two hundred targets of beaten gold: six hundred shekels of gold went to one target.
17 And he made three hundred shields of beaten gold; three pound of gold went to one shield: and the king put them in the house of the forest of Lebanon.
18 Moreover the king made a great throne of ivory, and overlaid it with the best gold.
19 The throne had six steps, and the top of the throne was round behind: and there were stays on either side on the place of the seat, and two lions stood beside the stays.
20 And twelve lions stood there on the one side and on the other upon the six steps: there was not the like made in any kingdom.
21 And all king Solomon's drinking vessels were of gold, and all the vessels of the house of the forest of Lebanon were of pure gold; none were of silver: it (silver) was nothing accounted of in the days of Solomon.
22 For the king had at sea a navy of Tharshish with the navy of Hiram: once in three years came the navy of Tharshish, bringing gold, and silver, ivory, and apes, and peacocks.
23 So king Solomon exceeded all the kings of the earth for riches and for wisdom.
24 And all the earth sought to Solomon, to hear his wisdom, which God had put in his heart.
25 And they brought every man his present, vessels of silver, and vessels of gold, and garments, and armour, and spices, horses, and mules, a rate year by year.
26 And Solomon gathered together chariots and horsemen: and he had a thousand and four hundred chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen, whom he bestowed in the cities for chariots, and with the king at Jerusalem.
27 And the king made silver to be in Jerusalem as stones, and cedars made he to be as the sycomore trees that are in the vale, for abundance.
28 And Solomon had horses brought out of Egypt, and linen yarn: the king's merchants received the linen yarn at a price.
29 And a chariot came up and went out of Egypt for six hundred shekels of silver, and an horse for an hundred and fifty: and so for all the kings of the Hittites, and for the kings of Syria, did they bring them out by their means.
11:1 But king Solomon loved many strange (foreign) women, together with the daughter of Pharaoh, women of the Moabites, Ammonites, Edomites, Zidonians, and Hittites;
2 Of the nations concerning which the LORD said unto the children of Israel, Ye shall not go in to them, neither shall they come in unto you: for surely they will turn away your heart after their gods: Solomon clave unto these in love.
3 And he had seven hundred wives, princesses, and three hundred concubines: and his wives turned away his heart.
4 For it came to pass, when Solomon was old, that his wives turned away his heart after other gods: and his heart was not perfect with the LORD his God, as was the heart of David his father.
5 For Solomon went after Ashtoreth the goddess of the Zidonians, and after Milcom the abomination of the Ammonites.
6 And Solomon did evil in the sight of the LORD, and went not fully after the LORD, as did David his father.
KJV

However, THIS is why Yeshua` was called "the Son of God." It's a fulfillment of this prophecy!

Quote

John is careful to use the phrase "The Son of God"  in a way that is very unique to Jesus.  The Greek bears it out better than the English.   When Jesus referred to Himself as The Son of God, it was considered blasphemy.   When Jesus said that He and the Father are one, they were going to stone Him for blasphemy.   They claimed that Jesus was making Himself God and Jesus didn't correct their understanding; rather, he doubled down on His claim to be God.

There you go using that phrase, "doubled down." I don't think you know what it means. What Yeshua` SAID was this:

John 10:34-38
34 Jesus answered them,
Is it not written in your law, "I said, Ye are gods?"
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

KJV

And, yes, the Greek DOES bear it out better, but the Hebrew is the best!

Psalm 82:6
6 Aniy aamartiy elohiym atem uwVneey `elyown kulkhem:
JPS Hebrew-English TANAKH

Aniy = I
aamartiy = I-have-said
elohiym = gods
atem = you (are)
uwVneey = and-sons
`elyown = of-Most-High
kulkhem: = all-of-you (are):

In other words, Yeshua` was making it NOT unique to Himself! In fact, He belittled Himself in favor of glorifying His Father, God, whose works (deeds) He was doing ... as INSTRUCTED by God to do! "If I'm not doing my Father's works, then don't believe me. But, if I AM doing them, then even if you won't believe me, believe the WORKS!"

Quote

The phrase "Son of Man"  is a little different in that it is a Messianic title that Jesus appropriated to Himself from Daniel 7:12.   He used it in a unique way that only ever used in connection to Jesus.  Jesus was using the title "Son of Man" in a way that the Jews would have recognized as referring to the Daniel prophecy and would have understood Jesus to be claiming to the Messiah.   They would NOT have seen it as a claim to simply being  a man.

Hmmm.... Well, there's a little problem with this understanding. First, Daniel 7:13 (in the TANAKH) uses the Aramaic words "kVar enaash," which means "like-an-heir of-a-mortal-man." I don't know if He was using that phrase, or the phrase from the Torah (Numbers 23:19), "uwVen aadaam," meaning "and-a-son of-Adam/man." It could have been the same phrase repeated in Iyov (Job 25:6; 35:8), in the Psalms (Psalm 8:5; 80:18 [ben aadaam]; 146:3 [b-Ven aadaam]), in Yesha`yahu (Isaiah 51:12 [uwmiben aadaam]; 56:2), in Yirmeyahu (Jeremiah 49:18, 33; 50:40; 51:43), and in Y'chezk'el (Ezekiel 2:1 and following 93x [ben aadaam]): Only in Psalm 144:3 is the same phrase used as in Daniel 7:13 (only in Hebrew), "ben enowsh."

The Greek phrase is "ho huios tou anthroopou," "the son of-the man," referring to a "human being" a "mortal man."

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No, the Spirit of Christ and the Holy Spirit are one and the same (Rom. 8:9).  They are equated together as the same.  Only sloppy exegesis would see them as being different.

REALLY?! Only sloppy exegesis would EQUATE them! Why would they be given different words/phrases if they were one and the same?! That's TRULY AMAZING that you would take that position! I just find it ironic that we see the one verse, Romans 8:9, SO VERY differently!

Quote

And yet, Jesus will never leave us or forsake us and He is with us all, every Christian, whether we are in NYC, Toronto, Moscow, Seoul, Sidney, London, Tokyo, etc.  He watches us, hears us, no matter where we are.   His body isn't limiting Him as you claim.   Jesus fully man and fully God and can operate in that reality unlimited.   How?   He is God, He can make it happen and it is beyond my ability to explain.   That's one of the things about being God, He is able to live and operate in a reality that transcends what is possible in our plain of reality.

The Holy Spirit is referred to as both God and as a Person separate from the Father and the Son in the totality of Scripture. 

Actually, you're partially quoting from Hebrews 

Hebrews 13:4-5
4 Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge.
5 Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.
KJV

which is quoted from...

Deuteronomy 31:1-6
1 And Moses went and spake these words unto all Israel.
2 And he said unto them, I am an hundred and twenty years old this day; I can no more go out and come in: also the LORD hath said unto me, Thou shalt not go over this Jordan.
3 The LORD thy God, he will go over before thee, and he will destroy these nations from before thee, and thou shalt possess them: and Joshua, he shall go over before thee, as the LORD hath said.
4 And the LORD shall do unto them as he did to Sihon and to Og, kings of the Amorites, and unto the land of them, whom he destroyed.
5 And the LORD shall give them up before your face, that ye may do unto them according unto all the commandments which I have commanded you.
6 Be strong and of a good courage, fear not, nor be afraid of them: for the LORD thy God, he it is that doth go with thee; he will not fail thee, nor forsake thee.
KJV

So, it was GOD, the FATHER, who said that!

Perhaps, we should just table this discussion for another time, a time when you are more ready to hear what I have to say, IF that ever comes. I DO, however, recognize that Yeshua` is the Word who was made flesh; as such, He IS the SAME PERSON who was with God and who was God, whether He is exactly like God His Father now or not.

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On 5/22/2017 at 0:01 PM, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Allroses48.

I'm not a Trinitarian per se, but I'm certainly NOT an "Anti-Trinitarian." I'm more of a "practical Binitarian." I do believe that G-d is in TWO Persons.

Romans 1:1-7
1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,
2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)
3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:
5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:
6 Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:
7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
KJV

1 Corinthians 1:1-3
1 Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,
2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:
3 Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
KJV

2 Corinthians 1:1-2
1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, unto the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints which are in all Achaia:
2 Grace be to you and peace from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
KJV

Galatians 1:1-5
1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;)
2 And all the brethren which are with me, unto the churches of Galatia:
3 Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ,
4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:
5 To whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
KJV

Ephesians 1:1-6
1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
KJV

1 Timothy 1:1-2
1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Saviour, and Lord Jesus Christ, which is our hope;
2 Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.
KJV

2 Timothy 1:1-2
1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, according to the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus,
2 To Timothy, my dearly beloved son: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.
KJV

Titus 1:1-4
1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;
2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;
3 But hath in due times manifested his word through preaching, which is committed unto me according to the commandment of God our Saviour;
4 To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour.
KJV

Hebrews 1:1-4
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
KJV

James 1:1
1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
KJV

1 Peter 1:1-5
1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
KJV

2 Peter 1:1-4
1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,
3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
KJV

1 John 1:1-3
1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)
3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.
KJV

2 John 1-3
1 The elder unto the elect lady and her children, whom I love in the truth; and not I only, but also all they that have known the truth;
2 For the truth's sake, which dwelleth in us, and shall be with us for ever.
3 Grace be with you, mercy, and peace, from God the Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.
KJV

Jude 1-2
1 Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called:
2 Mercy unto you, and peace, and love, be multiplied.
KJV

Revelation 1:1-2
1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.
KJV

Almost every one of the Epistles and the book of Revelation begin with the acknowledgement of the TWO!

Regarding the "Spirit," we have TWO "Spirits" recorded again! The "Holy Spirit" is usually said to be the "Spirit of God," the "Spirit of the Father," the "Spirit of glory," "the Spirit of life," or "His Spirit."

We also have "the Spirit of Christ" or the "Spirit of Jesus Christ." This is found in three places:

Romans 8:9
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
KJV

Philippians 1:19-20
19 For I know that this shall turn to my salvation through your prayer, and the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ,
20 According to my earnest expectation and my hope, that in nothing I shall be ashamed, but that with all boldness, as always, so now also Christ shall be magnified in my body, whether it be by life, or by death.
KJV

1 Peter 1:10-11
10 Of which salvation the prophets have inquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
KJV

And, it originated HERE:

John 20:21-23
21 Then said Jesus to them again,
Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

KJV

One will also find Scripture that says,...

John 4:24
24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
KJV

Yeshua` (Jesus) doing the talking!

The word "spirit" comes from "ruwach" in the OT and from "pneuma" in the NT:

OT:7307 ruwach (roo'-akh); from OT:7306; wind; by resemblance breath, i.e. a sensible ["feel-able"] (or even violent) exhalation; figuratively, life, anger, unsubstantiality; by extension, a region of the sky; by resemblance spirit, but only of a rational being (including its expression and functions):
KJV - air, anger, blast, breath,  cool, courage, mind,  quarter,  side, spirit ([-ual]), tempest,  vain, ([whirl-]) wind (-y).

OT:7306 ruwach (roo'-akh); a primitive root; properly, to blow, i.e. breathe; only (literally) to smell or (by implication, perceive (figuratively, to anticipate, enjoy):
KJV - accept, smell,  touch, make of quick understanding.

NT:4151 pneuma (pnyoo'-mah); from NT:4154; a current of air, i.e. breath (blast) or a breeze; by analogy or figuratively, a spirit, i.e. (human) the rational soul, (by implication) vital principle, mental disposition, etc., or (superhuman) an angel, demon, or (divine) God, Christ's spirit, the Holy Spirit:
KJV - ghost, life, spirit (-ual, -ually), mind. Compare NT:5590.

NT:4154 pneoo (pneh'-o); a primary word; to breathe hard, i.e. breeze:
KJV - blow. Compare NT:5594.

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

So, the Breath of God is "the SPIRIT of God," who IS a "SPIRIT," A BREATH!

The word "pneuma" has been used in various ways in the NT: It can mean a "ghost"; it can mean an "attitude"; it can mean a "voice"; it can mean a "thought"; it can mean an "idea." It's been so nebulous in interpretation, that I cannot pinpoint, yet, what exactly it means in translation!

The word "spirit" has been used in translation, but even that word is nebulous in meaning!

and

But, looking at this last "ORIGIN" portion - the etymology of the word - it, too, comes from Latin words (the language of the Roman Empire) meaning "a breath" and  "to breathe!"

So, if the "Holy Spirit" is God, "a Person of the Godhead," and "God the Father" is God, who is "thrice Holy" and is Spirit, then what's the difference between the "Holy Spirit" and "God the Father?"

Therefore, I believe in TWO Persons: God the Father (who is EQUAL to the "Holy Spirit") and the Son of God, Yeshua` the Messiah, who is also called the Word of God (John 1) because He was God.

The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen.

2 Corinthians 13:14

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What about the scripture in the old testament? 

"Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts: “I am the first and I am the last; besides me there is no god. " Isaiah 44:6       And all those other scriptures that support Monotheism? 

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