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Guest Judas Machabeus

Sure, I'm not aware of anyone using a 66 book canon before Luther. I knew there were larger canons than the traditional 72 book. 

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I think if Enoch was referenced in Jude and by Jesus that there's something to its importance as inspired even though it was omitted from the Canon. 

There's a sight that compares scriptures that show Jesus referred indirectly to passages from the Book of Enoch. (HERE)

Jesus Christ Enoch
Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth. (Mat 5:5) The elect shall possess light, joy and peace, and they shall inherit the earth. (Enoch 5:7 {6:9})
the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the son (John 5:22). the principal part of the judgment was assigned to him, the Son of man. (Enoch 69:27 {68:39})
shall inherit everlasting life (Mat. 19:29) those who will inherit eternal life (Enoch 40:9 {40:9})
"Wo unto you that are rich! for ye have received your consolation. (Luke 6:24) Woe to you who are rich, for in your riches have you trusted; but from your riches you shall be removed. (Enoch 94:8 {93:7}).
Ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. (Mat. 19:28) I will place each of them on a throne of glory (Enoch 108:12 {105:26})
Woe unto that man through whom the Son of man is betrayed! It had been good for that man if he had not been born. (Mat. 26:24) Where will the habitation of sinners be . . . who have rejected the Lord of spirits. It would have been better for them, had they never been born. (Enoch 38:2 {38:2})
between us and you there is a great gulf fixed. (Luke 16:26) by a chasm . . . [are] their souls are separated (Enoch 22: 9,11{22:10,12})
In my Father's house are many mansions (John 14:2) In that day shall the Elect One sit upon a throne of glory, and shall choose their conditions and countless habitations. (Enoch 45:3 {45:3})
that ye may be called the children of light (John 12:36) the good from the generation of light (Enoch 108:11 {105:25})
the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life. (John 4:14) all the thirsty drank, and were filled with wisdom, having their habitation with the righteous, the elect, and the holy. (Enoch 48:1 {48:1})
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6 hours ago, Allroses48 said:

In 367AD the  church father Athanasius "first provided the complete listing of the 66 books belonging to the canon and noted that those 66 books were the ones, and the only ones, universally accepted."

My question is why are we relying on the proclamations of a church father over 300 years after Christ's resurrection? Why aren't we relying on the early biblical writers themselves who believed Enoch to be divinely inspired and who were divinely led by God himself? The Ethiopian orthodox church is much older than 367 AD and older than the Catholic church. 

 

I had forgotten about the Ethiopian canon. I did a search and found this. A PDF Download = The Biblical Canon Of The Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahdo Church

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Quote

 

The Catholic Church claims that it was founded by Jesus Christ. Sadly, the Catholic Church upholds their teachings above the teachings of Christ as taught in the Bible. In the New Testament, there is no mention of the worship/adoration of Mary (or the immaculate conception of Mary, the perpetual virginity of Mary, the assumption of Mary, or Mary as co-redemptrix and mediatrix), petitioning saints in heaven for their prayers, apostolic succession, the ordinances of the church functioning as sacraments, infant baptism, confession of sin to a priest, purgatory, indulgences or the equal authority of church tradition and Scripture.

How was the Catholic Church founded?

For about 300 years, Christians were persecuted by the Roman Empire until the “conversion” of Constantine. In A.D. 313, the Roman Emperor Constantine, who had been a pagan solar worshiper, nominally accepted Christianity and put into effect the first Sunday-worship law. Many of the Gentile Christians quickly accepted this change in an effort to distance themselves from the Jews because of their seventh day of worship.

Constantine sought to make it easier for the pagans in his realm to embrace his new politically correct religion. So, he encouraged all the Christians to adopt the pagan solar holidays by renaming them after the Christian God or various Christian saints. Sincere Christians resisted this compromise, but because the majority was willing to capitulate, they were soon overpowered.

In AD 325, Constantine called the Council of Nicea in an attempt to unify Christianity. Constantine promoted Christianity as a religion that could unite the Roman Empire, which was threatened with weakness and fragmentation. While this freedom to the Christians seemed like a positive step, the mixing of Christian beliefs with pagan practices was a negative blow to the purity of the faith.

It was in the year 538 A.D. that a decree of Emperor Justinian went into effect that assigned absolute preeminence to the Church of Rome. And the Papacy had a religious-political system. The Catholic Church was little more than the Roman Empire baptized. The very capital of the old Roman Empire became the capital of the Christian empire. The office of Pontifex Maximus was continued in that of the pope.

 

Source: https://proof.directory/founded-roman-catholic-church/

 

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Comparative Chart:
 
HEBREW BIBLE
(a.k.a. Mikra or TaNaK/Tanakh)     ORTHODOX BIBLES
(based on larger versions of LXX;
exact contents & editions vary)     CATHOLIC BIBLE
(based on Alexandrian canon of LXX;
with seven Deuterocanonical books)     

PROTESTANT BIBLE
(retains Catholic order, but
seven Apocrypha removed)
Torah / Books of Moses
1) Bereshit / Genesis
2) Shemot / Exodus
3) VaYikra / Leviticus
4) BaMidbar / Numbers
5) Devarim / Deuteronomy
      Pentateuch
1) Genesis
2) Exodus
3) Leviticus
4) Numbers
5) Deuteronomy     Pentateuch (Law)
1) Genesis
2) Exodus
3) Leviticus
4) Numbers
5) Deuteronomy
    Law (Pentateuch)
1) Genesis
2) Exodus
3) Leviticus
4) Numbers
5) Deuteronomy
Nevi'im / Former Prophets
6) Joshua
7) Judges
8) Samuel (1&2)
9) Kings (1&2)
 
    Historical Books
6) Joshua
7) Judges
8) Ruth
9) 1 Kingdoms (= 1 Sam)
10) 2 Kingdoms (= 2 Sam)
11) 3 Kingdoms (= 1 Kings)
12) 4 Kingdoms (= 2 Kings)
13) 1 Chronicles
14) 2 Chronicles
15) 1 Esdras
16) 2 Esdras (=Erza + Nehemiah)
17) Esther (longer version)
18) JUDITH
19) TOBIT
 
20) 1 MACCABEES
21) 2 MACCABEES
22) 3 Maccabees
23) 4 Maccabees
      Historical Books
6) Joshua
7) Judges
8) Ruth
9) 1 Samuel
10) 2 Samuel
11) 1 Kings
12) 2 Kings
13) 1 Chronicles
14) 2 Chronicles

15) Ezra
16) Nehemiah
17) TOBIT
18) JUDITH
19) Esther (longer version)
20) 1 MACCABEES
21) 2 MACCABEES     Historical Books
6) Joshua
7) Judges
8) Ruth
9) 1 Samuel
10) 2 Samuel
11) 1 Kings
12) 2 Kings
13) 1 Chronicles
14) 2 Chronicles

15) Ezra
16) Nehemiah


17) Esther (shorter version)
Nevi'im / Latter Prophets
10) Isaiah
11) Jeremiah
12) Ezekiel
13) The Book of the Twelve:
       Hosea, Joel,
       Amos, Obadiah,
       Jonah, Micah,
       Nahum, Habakkuk,
       Zephaniah, Haggai,
       Zechariah, Malachi
 
Khetuvim / Writings
14) Psalms (150)
15) Proverbs
16) Job
17) Song of Solomon
18) Ruth
19) Lamentations
20) Ecclesiastes
21) Esther (shorter version)
22) Daniel (12 chapters)
23) Ezra-Nehemiah
24) Chronicles (1&2)
    Poetic Books
24) Psalms (151)
25)    Odes (w/ Prayer of Manasseh)
26) Proverbs
27) Ecclesiastes
28) Song of Solomon
29) Job
30) WISDOM of Solomon
31) SIRACH, a.k.a. Ecclesiasticus
32) Psalms of Solomon     Wisdom Books
22) Job
23) Psalms (150)
24) Proverbs
25) Ecclesiastes
26) Song of Solomon
27) WISDOM of Solomon
28) SIRACH, a.k.a. Ecclesiasticus     Wisdom Books
18) Job
19) Psalms (150)
20) Proverbs
21) Ecclesiastes
22) Song of Solomon
.     Prophets
33) Hosea
34) Amos
35) Micah
36) Joel
37) Obadiah
38) Jonah
39) Nahum
40) Habakkuk
41) Zephaniah
42) Haggai
43) Zechariah
44) Malachi
 
45) Isaiah
46) Jeremiah
47)     BARUCH
48)     Lamentations
49)     LETTER of JEREMIAH
50) Ezekiel
51) Daniel (2 chapters listed separately):
52)     SUSANNA
53)     BEL and the DRAGON
    Prophets
29) Isaiah
30) Jeremiah
31) Lamentations
32) BARUCH (incl. LETTER of JER.)
33) Ezekiel
34) Daniel (14 chapters)

35) Hosea
36) Joel
37) Amos
38) Obadiah
39) Jonah
40) Micah
41) Nahum
42) Habakkuk
43) Zephaniah
44) Haggai
45) Zechariah
46) Malachi     Prophets
23) Isaiah
24) Jeremiah
25) Lamentations
 
26) Ezekiel
27) Daniel (only 12 chapters)

28) Hosea
29) Joel
30) Amos
31) Obadiah
32) Jonah
33) Micah
34) Nahum
35) Habakkuk
36) Zephaniah
37) Haggai
38) Zechariah
39) Malachi

Additional Resources: http://catholic-resources.org/Bible/Heb-Xn-Bibles.htm

~

Note: It Is Clearer On The Web Page

Love, Your Brother Joe

 

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“Now the serpent was more subtle than any animal of the field which Yahweh God had made. He said to the woman, ‘Has God Really said, you shall not eat of any tree of the garden?’ The woman said to the serpent, ‘of the fruit of the trees of the garden we may eat, but of the fruit of the tree which is in the middle of the garden, God has said, “You shall not eat of it, neither shall you touch it, lest you die.”’ The serpent said to the woman, ‘you won’t surely die, for God knows that in the day you eat it, your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.’” (Genesis 3:1-5 WEB)

Satan tempted Eve with the promise of knowledge that would open her eyes. Today, like in the ancient times, the Book of Enoch promises eye opening knowledge about prediluvian civilizations, cosmology, giants, angels, creation and biblical patriarchs. What often attracts people to the Book of Enoch is the belief that there are gaps of missing information that the bible cannot answer. However, many don’t realize just how much the Book of Enoch actually contradicts the scriptures and introduces the reader to ancient pagan teachings masked as biblical teaching. This is probably the reason the Book of Enoch has always been loved and held in high regard with New Agers, Luciferians and other occultists even to this day.

Contrary to what some believe, there are no “gaps of information” in the bible. The bible has revealed many answers about giants, biblical cosmology, and the prediluvian world, yet people still run to the Book of Enoch for answers. We have found that people are more eager to grab quick answers and shortcuts to that “eye opening knowledge” that the Book of Enoch promises. If only these same people took the time to study the bible they would have found the real truths they were seeking. However, people get caught up in the allure of an ancient text with mystical language and supposed hidden codes and information that they feel eluded the majority of mankind for centuries. People think if they read the Book of Enoch they will become the “oracle of hidden wisdom” and see themselves as a future teacher of this so-called "hidden wisdom," which they envision others will have to come to for supposed “correct” teachings. However, this is just prideful self-exaltation that people are seeking. They are so blind to the truth that they can't see that they are just filling their heads with false information and getting excited to be seen as an expert and a teacher of what is nothing more than ancient fables. 

What we find amazing is the number of people that read the Book of Enoch and remarked how they have an uneasy feelings about the book. Yet, these same people press on further and continue to read the Book of Enoch while rationalizing their uneasy feelings away. What shortly follows is the reader becomes sold on all the teachings of the Book of Enoch, even if the concepts are proven unscriptural.  It’s as if they suppress their spiritual discernment and allow themselves to become a victim of these false teaching and then allow themselves to become susceptible to further false teachings or even the occult.

We believe the Book of Enoch contradicts scriptures and should be avoided. We hope our book will provide you with sufficient information to prove the Book of Enoch is far from biblical and should be classified as an ancient fable. Even more so, it should be classified as a dangerous book that contains a few biblical references, or even a little truth just to get people comfortable to accept the multitude of lies.
 
What is the Book of Enoch?

Many think the Book of Enoch is just one book. However, the Book of Enoch is actually a collection of books written by multiple authors and during various time periods that extend from 300 BC to 200 AD. There is even evidence to suggest that within certain single books (chapters), there may also be large gaps of time and multiple contributors (writers). Therefore, it’s proven and very clear that the Book of Enoch is not the work of the Patriarch Enoch found in Genesis as the Book of Enoch implies. Shouldn't this deception alone make you suspicious about the writings in this book?

How is the book divided?

The Book of Enoch is a collection of five separate books compiled to form one book (also known as 1 Enoch):
1st book: The Book of the Watchers (known as 1 Enoch chapters 1-36)
2nd book: The Book of Parables or the Similitudes of Enoch (known as 1 Enoch chapters 37-71)
3rd book: The Astronomical Book or Book of Luminaries (known as 1 Enoch chapters 72-82)
4th book: The Book of Dream Visions or Book of Dreams (known as 1 Enoch chapters 83-90)
5th book: The Epistle of Enoch (known as 1 Enoch 91-108)

What are the dates each book was written?

1st book: Book of Watchers – 300 to 150 BC
2nd book: The Book of Parables – 100 BC to 200 AD
3rd book: The Astronomical Book – 200 BC
4th book: The Book of Dream Visions – 165 to 140 BC
5th book: The Epistle of Enoch – 200 BC to 100 AD

- These dates are the period of time when many of the deuterocanonical books were also written.

- This period spans the time of Greek to Roman influences in the Middle East and sandwiched in between is the Maccabean revolt and reign of the Hasmonean dynasty in Israel.

- This is also the period that the mystical Jewish sect of the Essenes flourished and the Pharisee sect also gained prominence with their re-interpretation of scriptures and multitude of religious rules.

Therefore, we can see a lot of political conflict, national identity issues, doctrinal divisions, and literary activity occurring in Israel during the same period some of the books of Enoch were written. 
 
 
What language is the book of Enoch written in?

The full version of the Book of Enoch is only found in the Ethiopian “Ge'ez” language, which is a Semitic language that is used for liturgy in the Ethiopian Orthodox Church, the Ethiopian Catholic Church and in the Ethiopian Jewish congregations....

http://www.refuteit.com/the-book-of-enoch-debunked.html

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On ‎5‎/‎9‎/‎2017 at 6:19 PM, Judas Machabeus said:

Sure, I'm not aware of anyone using a 66 book canon before Luther. I knew there were larger canons than the traditional 72 book. 

The Eastern Orthodox use 72 Book Canon as well.  They include the Apocrypha and some extra books. I think the reason is that Jesus quotes the Apocrypha a lot:

Matt. 6:19-20 - Jesus' statement about laying up for yourselves treasure in heaven follows Sirach 29:11 - lay up your treasure.
Matt.. 7:12 - Jesus' golden rule "do unto others" is the converse of Tobit 4:15 - what you hate, do not do to others.
Matt. 7:16,20 - Jesus' statement "you will know them by their fruits" follows Sirach 27:6 - the fruit discloses the cultivation.
Matt. 9:36 - the people were "like sheep without a shepherd" is same as Judith 11:19 - sheep without a shepherd.
Matt. 11:25 - Jesus' description "Lord of heaven and earth" is the same as Tobit 7:18 - Lord of heaven and earth.
Matt. 12:42 - Jesus refers to the wisdom of Solomon which was recorded and made part of the deuterocanonical books.
Matt. 16:18 - Jesus' reference to the "power of death" and "gates of Hades" references Wisdom 16:13.
Matt. 22:25; Mark 12:20; Luke 20:29 - Gospel writers refer to the canonicity of Tobit 3:8 and 7:11 regarding the seven brothers.
Matt. 24:15 - the "desolating sacrilege" Jesus refers to is also taken from 1 Macc. 1:54 and 2 Macc. 8:17.
Matt. 24:16 - let those "flee to the mountains" is taken from 1 Macc. 2:28.
Matt. 27:43 - if He is God's Son, let God deliver him from His adversaries follows Wisdom 2:18.
Mark 4:5,16-17 - Jesus' description of seeds falling on rocky ground and having no root follows Sirach 40:15.
Mark 9:48 - description of hell where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched references Judith 16:17."
^ (list above of verses from New Test and Apocypha compiled by kepha1, Nov 8th, 2004, 9:17 am, Did Jesus Quote from the Apocrypha? Catholic Answers Forums and .com).
 

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On 5/9/2017 at 8:33 PM, Happinessity said:

think if Enoch was referenced in Jude and by Jesus that there's something to its importance as inspired even though it was omitted from the Canon. 

There's a sight that compares scriptures that show Jesus referred indirectly to passages from the Book of Enoch. (HERE)

Jesus Christ - "Bless are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth."

Enoch - "The elect shall possess light, joy, and peace and they shall inherit the earth."

   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   

You REALLY have to be careful when you go to sites like this because there is so much shoddy and terrible Biblical scholarship out there by people who know just enough about the Bible to be wrong and teach it incorrectly.

Jesus Christ did NOT quote the author of the Book of Enoch, whoever that anonymous person is who could have possibly even written his book after Christ.  I keep finding a range of possible dates of that book from 100 to 300 years before Christ to as late as 100 years after the death of Christ.

Jesus Christ and the author of Enoch quoted King David who lived a thousand years BEFORE Christ and BEFORE the author of the book of Enoch [not written by the Old Testament Enoch]

First:  King David circa 1000 BC - Psalm 37:11 KJV- "But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace."
 

We need to truly be as careful as a kitten tiptoeing through a room of sleeping Dobermans when we scroll through internet sites for information about the Bible.  Much of it is lies and even more is dangerously wrong by people who were trying sincerely to be right who just do not have the competency for proper scholarship....

.....or else, they have an agenda and they pick and choose sloppily to prove a point that is incorrect.

 

Edited by Jayne
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