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The Book of Enoch


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We've had threads on the Book of Enoch, the Book of Jasher, and others posted here before.  They inevitably end up in a brawl.  If God had wanted those books included in the Bible, which is His word, they would have been.  It's fine to study them but they are not divinely inspired, IMO.

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2 hours ago, Sister said:

and his light is sevenfold brighter than that of the moon; but as regards size they are both equal.

This can somewhat go with the other parts of the oldtestament that regard the earth as flat and the sun and moon equal in size

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8 hours ago, 1to3 said:

This can somewhat go with the other parts of the oldtestament that regard the earth as flat and the sun and moon equal in size

Joshua 10:13   And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day.

 

 

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9 hours ago, 1to3 said:

This can somewhat go with the other parts of the oldtestament that regard the earth as flat and the sun and moon equal in size

Michael Hiser gives a really good reasoning for that,  but it's part of a 2 hour seminar that is too long to post here.

 

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23 hours ago, Sister said:

Hi daughterofGrace

That's fine.  What I mean about modern day scribe, is men writing books today about the bible, or those claiming to have some sort of authority over believers in laying out what is acceptable and what is not.  Needing us to go through "them" before we can go through God. They make their own laws as if God made them, and don't encourage us to search and make our own minds up, for they will do that for us.  I could of used the word Modern day Pharisees also.  Just like back then, they were always challenging the truth and held high positions.  The people looked up to them. 

 The "seducees" did not believe in fallen angels or angels of God, and did not believe in the resurrection.  They followed the law and concerned mainly with the temple and their customs.  So they are not concerned with spiritual things. 

Enoch was before the flood, so he is not a modern day scribe, but a very old one, and more than a scribe, ...for he was a prophet before the flood and taken up to all the levels of heaven.  The books of Adam and Eve were written before the flood also.  What we have today is not written today, but back then.

If you find no value in the book of Enoch then that's fine, it's your choice.  In regards to his prophecies, I could probably match every one to a scripture and find no contradiction.  But the things he speaks of regarding God's creation, how he made everything work together, and put his angels in charge of the sun, the moon, the winds, the stars, the lightning, the rain, the frost, the snow, ....absolutely everything, to hold all in it's place and positions so they don't lose their order is fascinating.  I never knew that before, but I can connect to Revelation when he commands the angels of the four winds. 

God has millions of angels, all designated to a particular duty.  They all have their stations.  They all sing hymns to the Lord and praise him constantly.  Have you ever wondered why the stars "twinkle?"  sending out vibrations?

Man has not found out all the wisdom in God's creation.  He likes to think he knows everything, but God says man knows very little about his creation in the sky.

 

 

Thanks for that thoughtful response, Sister.  I appreciate it.

My problem with the Book of Enoch is this:  It was written during the inter-testament period.  Therefore Enoch could not have been its author and nobody who actually knew Enoch could have written it either.  These are two of the reasons it could never have been considered as God-breathed Scripture.  Its author would have been no different than a "modern-day scribe" taking a character out of the Bible and writing something fanciful about him/her.  And that's done all the time today -- like Dan Brown's Da Vinci Code.

In fact, when Jerome was translating the Bible into Latin, he thought seriously about leaving the book of Jude out of the translation because Jude quoted a source outside of the Old Testament, that is, the Book of Enoch.  If nobody took it seriously in the first and second centuries and beyond, then I don't think we should take it seriously today. 

Angels are a popular topic these days and much has been written about them that isn't true.  How do we know what the author of Enoch wrote is?  The only way we can test things is to measure them against the Bible.  A long involved passage about fallen angels impregnating women on earth and people who were 450 feet tall and drank blood doesn't cut it with me.  And the majority of angels mentioned in the book aren't even mentioned in the Bible. 

Why bother with pseudepigrapha when we have the real thing in the Bible? 

Edited by daughterofGrace
clarification
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On ‎5‎/‎12‎/‎2017 at 11:53 AM, Saved.One.by.Grace said:

Christians are divided on the Book of Enoch.  It certainly clears up any confusion who the Nephilim were and why/how the Earth was first judged by God, the state of Earth being described in Genesis 1:2.  Some cannot accept the truth of these scriptures.  But our salvation does not depend on a perfect understanding of the Bible.  I would not include 1 Enoch in the Protestant Canon.  But that doesn't mean there's not truth to be gained from it.  The commentator of Enoch I am currently reading points out the contradictions or errors in the translation with respect to Biblical truth.  2 and 3 Enoch, in all likelihood, have been written by others or just corrupted.

I agree, SavedonebyGrace, that we can find truth in pseudepigrapha.  I would compare it to the Quran.  The Quran says that Jesus was born of a virgin and that he was a prophet.  Those things are true and I could quote them, using the Quran as my source, but that wouldn't make the book I took them from God-breathed or worthy of a place in the Bible.  But if I were engaged in a conversation with a Muslim, it would be a great place to start.

And I think that's why Jude referred to the Book of Enoch in his epistle.  It would have represented the popular literature of the day, something that was well-known.  Jude was writing about false prophets and the ungodly ones who, as he puts it, "follow their own desires" -- just like the fallen angels and their half-human, half-angelic offspring in the Book of Enoch.  He was using an example that the crowd would recognize to make his point.

I liken it to Paul quoting the poetry of pagans to the philosophers gathered at the agora in Acts 17.  He started a conversation with them by using something they were familiar with.  It was a springboard to further discussion -- discussion that would lead them to the truth of God.

Of course, I'm  not so sure that the Nephilim mentioned in the Bible were necessarily the offspring of fallen angels and humans -- which would certainly further discredit the Book of Enoch.  Jesus speaks of angels as not engaging in sex (Matt. 22:30).  I expect they were just a nasty race of overly-tall evil human beings.  But that's a topic for another thread.

 

 

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8 hours ago, daughterofGrace said:

Thanks for that thoughtful response, Sister.  I appreciate it.

My problem with the Book of Enoch is this:  It was written during the inter-testament period.  Therefore Enoch could not have been its author and nobody who actually knew Enoch could have written it either.  These are two of the reasons it could never have been considered as God-breathed Scripture.  Its author would have been no different than a "modern-day scribe" taking a character out of the Bible and writing something fanciful about him/her.  And that's done all the time today -- like Dan Brown's Da Vinci Code.

In fact, when Jerome was translating the Bible into Latin, he thought seriously about leaving the book of Jude out of the translation because Jude quoted a source outside of the Old Testament, that is, the Book of Enoch.  If nobody took it seriously in the first and second centuries and beyond, then I don't think we should take it seriously today. 

Angels are a popular topic these days and much has been written about them that isn't true.  How do we know what the author of Enoch wrote is?  The only way we can test things is to measure them against the Bible.  A long involved passage about fallen angels impregnating women on earth and people who were 450 feet tall and drank blood doesn't cut it with me.  And the majority of angels mentioned in the book aren't even mentioned in the Bible. 

Why bother with pseudepigrapha when we have the real thing in the Bible? 

You're welcome Daughter of Grace.

Enoch was written before the flood, as he testifies, and the translation, long after, so two different things there.  All one has to do is read how Enoch warns that a great deluge was coming upon the earth (flood), so he wrote it in that time period...in the old world.  All who listened to Enoch and repented died before the flood and his only remaining descendant who believed was Noah.  God could of given Moses an account of all the fine details, just like he did with Genesis, but who better than Enoch himself, to testify to men then, and us today what God has showed him.  We have something written that we can search into as additional information if we are hungry for more.

Just because no man in authority took Enoch's writings seriously before, or even man now, doesn't mean it's not true and didn't happen.  Enoch was provided for them then, so that Seth's descendants could return to God.  Every one has a chance, even those before the flood.  Enoch warned that they would all fall away from the living God, and his record kept testifies what God forewarned from the beginning.

I was not introduced to God through the book of Enoch, but through the Canon, and through my own personal experiences that lead me there.  The canon rules supreme, and provides our guide to salvation, but that doesn't make Enoch invalid, for those who want to add to their knowledge, or confirm it.

If you have not yet discovered from the Canon that there were fallen angels and that they mingled with the seed of men producing a half breed spirit/flesh type of children who started the nephlim race, then I suggest going back to the Canon, and searching with all your heart in Genesis 6, that these things really did occur.  Also go to other parts of the OT and read about the giants, and the measurements given.  Even David fought with a giant.  These giants did not come out of nowhere, as they go against nature, their beginnings must of started at a certain point. 

I see it that Satan started mingling with the seed of animals first..then man....not that he created anything out of nothing, but had the knowledge how to tamper with the genes like they do today in the lab.

 

 Genesis 6:4   There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

  Numbers 13:33   And there we saw the giants, the sons of Anak, which come of the giants: and we were in our own sight as grasshoppers, and so we were in their sight.

  Deuteronomy 2:11   Which also were accounted giants, as the Anakims; but the Moabites call them Emims.

  Deuteronomy 2:20   (That also was accounted a land of giants: giants dwelt therein in old time; and the Ammonites call them Zamzummims;

  Deuteronomy 3:11   For only Og king of Bashan remained of the remnant of giants; behold, his bedstead was a bedstead of iron; is it not in Rabbath of the children of Ammon? nine cubits was the length thereof, and four cubits the breadth of it, after the cubit of a man.

  Deuteronomy 3:13   And the rest of Gilead, and all Bashan, being the kingdom of Og, gave I unto the half tribe of Manasseh; all the region of Argob, with all Bashan, which was called the land of giants.

  Joshua 12:4   And the coast of Og king of Bashan, which was of the remnant of the giants, that dwelt at Ashtaroth and at Edrei,

  Joshua 13:12   All the kingdom of Og in Bashan, which reigned in Ashtaroth and in Edrei, who remained of the remnant of the giants: for these did Moses smite, and cast them out.

 

The only question this would raise is;   if all the giants were destroyed in the flood, then how did they re-appear after the flood?

The answer is quite simple if you put your mind to it.

 

 

 

 

 

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On 5/13/2017 at 0:14 PM, daughterofGrace said:

I agree, SavedonebyGrace, that we can find truth in pseudepigrapha.  I would compare it to the Quran.  The Quran says that Jesus was born of a virgin and that he was a prophet.  Those things are true and I could quote them, using the Quran as my source, but that wouldn't make the book I took them from God-breathed or worthy of a place in the Bible.  But if I were engaged in a co'nversation with a Muslim, it would be a great place to start.

And I think that's why Jude referred to the Book of Enoch in his epistle.  It would have represented the popular literature of the day, something that was well-known.  Jude was writing about false prophets and the ungodly ones who, as he puts it, "follow their own desires" -- just like the fallen angels and their half-human, half-angelic offspring in the Book of Enoch.  He was using an example that the crowd would recognize to make his point.

I liken it to Paul quoting the poetry of pagans to the philosophers gathered at the agora in Acts 17.  He started a conversation with them by using something they were familiar with.  It was a springboard to further discussion -- discussion that would lead them to the truth of God.

Of course, I'm  not so sure that the Nephilim mentioned in the Bible were necessarily the offspring of fallen angels and humans -- which would certainly further discredit the Book of Enoch.  Jesus speaks of angels as not engaging in sex (Matt. 22:30).  I expect they were just a nasty race of overly-tall evil human beings.  But that's a topic for another thread.

It is within the topic of the Book of Enoch on this thread.  The Nephilim were alive before and after Noah's Flood.  That's what Genesis says.  So what did Noah's Flood accomplish?  As to the reasons Peter, Jude and others quoted from Enoch, let's not try to second guess their writings.  It's in the New Testament so deal with it as we would with other scriptures.  As for what Jesus says about angels, He doesn't say they cannot have sex.  He says they are not married.  That could be because they were all masculine.  Angels then could breed with human females as the Bible states.  So the Book of Enoch helps in interpreting the OT.

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On 5/12/2017 at 11:21 AM, daughterofGrace said:

Thanks so much for providing all of that, SavedonebyGrace.  I appreciate the trouble you have taken to post it.

I have this to say in response:

The Book of Enoch was NEVER at any time part of Hebrew Scripture.  When Jesus quoted Hebrew Scripture, he always said, "It is written . . . . " to show clearly that he was quoting it.  Did he say that for any of the above quotations that would indicate he was quoting the Book of Enoch?  Given that it was never part of the Tanakh, I'm thinking he didn't, but, of course, I would have to look them all up to be sure.

Secondly, these verses from Enoch are taken out of context.  It's important to read them in context to see if they mean what Jesus meant when he said something of a similar nature.  I have read through Enoch and can't see any parallels with its content.

Lastly, it isn't the general, superficial similarities that are important.  It's the extreme differences that constitute the reason why Enoch was never considered the Word of God.  It's a fantastical book about angels/demons (the names given are not found in the Bible, see chapter 6 of Enoch, and supposedly gives an account of the Nephilim) with offspring who are 450 feet tall.  Then there's information about judgment.

I haven't sat down to pick out all the things in the Book of Enoch that don't line up with Scripture, something I would gladly do had I more time.  But I trust that those who decided what was God-breathed Scripture and what wasn't were led by the Holy Spirit to make their decisions.  And they rejected Enoch.

An interesting topic, that's for sure!  Thanks for starting it, allroses.

So it was only after 200 years or so that the Book of Enoch was removed from the Canon.  Shall we strike out the Book of Jude too?

Quote

The Book of Enoch was considered as scripture in the Epistle of Barnabas (16:4)[24] and by many of the early Church Fathers, such as Athenagoras,[25] Clement of Alexandria,[26] Irenaeus[27] and Tertullian,[28] who wrote c. 200 that the Book of Enoch had been rejected by the Jews because it contained prophecies pertaining to Christ.[29] However, later Fathers denied the canonicity of the book, and some even considered the Epistle of Jude uncanonical because it refers to an "apocryphal" work.[30]

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Enoch

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if you have some serious time to invest you might do a youtube search for REVERSING HERMON - 1 Enoch, the NT, Watchers, Nephilim & Antichrist - Dr. Michael S. Heiser

it's about an hour and a half and you will want to view two others for base input to this one.

It's a very interesting take on 1 Enoch

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