daughterofGrace Posted May 20, 2017 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 136 Content Per Day: 0.05 Reputation: 145 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/20/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted May 20, 2017 12 minutes ago, other one said: Just a note..... Matheusala lived about three hundred years with Enoch until God took Enoch away. Noah lived at the time of Matheusala for nearly 600 years before Matheusala died. Shem, Noah's son lived at the same time as Matheusala for about a hundred years. So the first two generations after Matheusala died (the same year as the flood) would have first hand information from the son of Enoch. Now we come to Abraham. Abraham was about 58 years old when Noah died, and Shem lived longer than did Abraham by about 35 years. Then Issaic and on to Jacob.... Jacob was about 50 years old when Shem died. Enochian teachings through Matheusala would have been first hand knowledge through the lives of all the patriarchs to Jacob. Did they have written language the time of Noah.... Sumerian tablets do go back that far, so we know that there was writing at the time of Nimrod and the tower of Babel. That happened during the time of Peleg which was during the time of Noah. There is no real reason to believe that there was not written language prior to the flood and there is no reason to think that Enoch could not have left his son the book of 1Enoch. At the very least first hand knowledge given to Noah by Matheusala which could easily have been penned from that time period. I see no reason to believe that these transcripts that we have of 1Enoch could not be copies of those brought through the flood by Noah.... at the very least the knowledge contained within the teachings of Enoch himself. Well, other one, you can't prove that there were transcripts written by Enoch himself that made it to the second century B.C. and I can't prove that there weren't. So I guess we're at a stand still! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
other one Posted May 20, 2017 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 29 Topic Count: 595 Topics Per Day: 0.08 Content Count: 56,031 Content Per Day: 7.56 Reputation: 27,775 Days Won: 271 Joined: 12/29/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted May 20, 2017 1 hour ago, daughterofGrace said: Well, other one, you can't prove that there were transcripts written by Enoch himself that made it to the second century B.C. and I can't prove that there weren't. So I guess we're at a stand still! there isn't proof of anything in the world really. Anything could be a fabrication of someone.... but when you start putting the pieces of things together to for a mosaic picture, things blend together and it's just easier to accept some things than others. And sometimes it's just the perspective of the person looking on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted May 20, 2017 Share Posted May 20, 2017 2 hours ago, daughterofGrace said: We don't always know the writers of the literature produced down through the centuries. We don't know the authors of the Gospel of Thomas or the Gospel of Judas or Mary, etc. and they were written a couple of centuries after Christ. We don't have copies of these things with the name of their authors on them. We DO know that the writer of Enoch wasn't Enoch because he wasn't alive to write it. Secondly, I did NOT say that we couldn't get something true out of a non-Biblical ancient text. In fact, I stated the opposite in a couple of my posts. The statement that Jude made in reference to Enoch was true. But that doesn't mean that everything in the book is true. I don't buy into the whole fallen-angel having sex with women, etc. I don't find most of the names of the angels listed in it in the Bible, etc. I am not familiar with the work of Hiser so I can't comment on that. The biggest problem for people who buy into these pseudographical texts is that they don't have the same textual witness, historically, that the books of Scripture do. The Bible, both OT and NT are preserved in multiple ways throughout the ages and there are tens of thousands of manuscripts and parts of manuscripts to compare. The book of Enoch has no such means by which test it, to compare it against other "books of Enoch" to make sure what is being read today is really the book of Enoch. Stuff like the book of Enoch is a way of getting people's eyes off of the Word of God and off of the Lord, Himself. Satan likes to get us distracted. He is not out to turn us into thieves or adulterers. He just gets us off course by 1 degree, by getting us to focus on something else other than the Bible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
other one Posted May 20, 2017 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 29 Topic Count: 595 Topics Per Day: 0.08 Content Count: 56,031 Content Per Day: 7.56 Reputation: 27,775 Days Won: 271 Joined: 12/29/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted May 20, 2017 1 hour ago, shiloh357 said: The biggest problem for people who buy into these pseudographical texts is that they don't have the same textual witness, historically, that the books of Scripture do. The Bible, both OT and NT are preserved in multiple ways throughout the ages and there are tens of thousands of manuscripts and parts of manuscripts to compare. The book of Enoch has no such means by which test it, to compare it against other "books of Enoch" to make sure what is being read today is really the book of Enoch. Stuff like the book of Enoch is a way of getting people's eyes off of the Word of God and off of the Lord, Himself. Satan likes to get us distracted. He is not out to turn us into thieves or adulterers. He just gets us off course by 1 degree, by getting us to focus on something else other than the Bible. i don't see the gist of the book of 1 Enoch as conflicting with the Bible. It actually gives a context to it that makes a lot of things more clear. I would agree it's not on the same level as the Bible, but it's not false either and that is what a lot of people who read that 1Enoch is not part of the Bible think. Those unaware are thinking that one should pay no attention to it at all.... and I don't think that's wise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daughterofGrace Posted May 20, 2017 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 136 Content Per Day: 0.05 Reputation: 145 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/20/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted May 20, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, other one said: there isn't proof of anything in the world really. Anything could be a fabrication of someone.... but when you start putting the pieces of things together to for a mosaic picture, things blend together and it's just easier to accept some things than others. And sometimes it's just the perspective of the person looking on. That is a truly post-modern response, one I disagree with. There are things we can know with certainty. Truth isn't simply a matter of perspective. I realize that there are those who say it's relative, but relativism is an untenable stance, one that nobody can live by successfully. It only leads to chaos. Edited May 20, 2017 by daughterofGrace Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daughterofGrace Posted May 20, 2017 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 136 Content Per Day: 0.05 Reputation: 145 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/20/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted May 20, 2017 39 minutes ago, shiloh357 said: The biggest problem for people who buy into these pseudographical texts is that they don't have the same textual witness, historically, that the books of Scripture do. The Bible, both OT and NT are preserved in multiple ways throughout the ages and there are tens of thousands of manuscripts and parts of manuscripts to compare. The book of Enoch has no such means by which test it, to compare it against other "books of Enoch" to make sure what is being read today is really the book of Enoch. Stuff like the book of Enoch is a way of getting people's eyes off of the Word of God and off of the Lord, Himself. Satan likes to get us distracted. He is not out to turn us into thieves or adulterers. He just gets us off course by 1 degree, by getting us to focus on something else other than the Bible. Excellent post, Shiloh. I agree with you whole-heartedly. Thanks for your input. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sister Posted May 20, 2017 Group: Royal Member Followers: 17 Topic Count: 50 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,727 Content Per Day: 1.04 Reputation: 2,305 Days Won: 5 Joined: 06/29/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted May 20, 2017 7 hours ago, daughterofGrace said: The book of Enoch was not just discovered in the second century. It was written in the second century. That is why it could not have been written by Enoch or anybody who knew him. Most scholars are in agreement about this. People down through the centuries have written books and ascribed them to recognizable authors rather than put their own name on them. This is true of the Gospel of Thomas, the Gospel of Judas, the gospel of Mary, etc. They put other people's names on them to give them a bogus credibility and to get people to read them. As for believing the word of scholars -- yes, I believe it when scholars who have studied these matters tell me these things. That's what history is all about -- studying things from the past. And I believe that God expects us to use the information we are given to make intelligent decisions about those things under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. I am leery of people who ignore scholarship and say they only listen to the Holy Spirit as it frees them from having to base anything they say in reality. The Book of Enoch comes to us through the Ethiopian church which is the ONLY church to consider it God-breathed. Yes, the New Testament speaks of Enoch based on what it says about him in Genesis, not based on the Book of Enoch. Here is a very lengthy discussion of the book which confirms the date of its writing: http://www.earlyjewishwritings.com/1enoch.html Here is a comment from another scholar in an article on canonization: Pseudepigrapha These are religious books written under the assumed name of a biblical character such as Moses, Enoch and others. These books were written in times of national emergencies, as in the persecution of the Jews by Antiochus. Their purpose was to encourage the morale of the people. The four types of literature found in this category were apocalyptic, legendary, political and didactic. They were never recognized as canonical. In Jude 14-16, the pseudepigrapha book of Enoch is quoted. This book of Enoch never claimed canonicity. It is, however, quoted as a true statement. The apostle recognizes truth in this writing as we today would recognize it in a poem by Robert Frost or in the writing of C. S. Lewis. As this truth may be quoted in a sermon, so Jude found truth in the Book of Enoch and quoted it. https://bible.org/seriespage/part-va-canonization-chapter-six-collection-begins The book of Enoch did not meet any of the criteria for inclusion in the canon. Its unknown authorship and late date combined with the fact that it was never included in the Hebrew canon or the Christian one (outside of Ethiopia) and it wasn't in common use by the church (only quoted by a few individuals) make me dismiss it as what it is -- a fanciful writing not meant to be in the Biblical canon. Its purpose may have been to entertain or to discourage sexual sin and warn of judgment because of sin, but that doesn't make it Scripture -- and I'm not going to take it as such. DaughterofGrace We are not talking about the gospel of Thomas, Judas or Mary. I don't defend them. We are talking about Enoch. This is what God has to say about your scholars who are the shepherds you follow; Jeremiah 25:30 Therefore prophesy thou against them all these words, and say unto them, The LORD shall roar from on high, and utter his voice from his holy habitation; he shall mightily roar upon his habitation; he shall give a shout, as they that tread the grapes, against all the inhabitants of the earth. Jeremiah 25:31 A noise shall come even to the ends of the earth; for the LORD hath a controversy with the nations, he will plead with all flesh; he will give them that are wicked to the sword, saith the LORD. Jeremiah 25:32 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, Behold, evil shall go forth from nation to nation, and a great whirlwind shall be raised up from the coasts of the earth. Jeremiah 25:33 And the slain of the LORD shall be at that day from one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth: they shall not be lamented, neither gathered, nor buried; they shall be dung upon the ground. Jeremiah 25:34 Howl, ye shepherds, and cry; and wallow yourselves in the ashes, ye principal of the flock: for the days of your slaughter and of your dispersions are accomplished; and ye shall fall like a pleasant vessel. Jeremiah 25:35 And the shepherds shall have no way to flee, nor the principal of the flock to escape. Jeremiah 25:36 A voice of the cry of the shepherds, and an howling of the principal of the flock, shall be heard: for the LORD hath spoiled their pasture. Jeremiah 25:37 And the peaceable habitations are cut down because of the fierce anger of the LORD. Jeremiah 25:38 He hath forsaken his covert, as the lion: for their land is desolate because of the fierceness of the oppressor, and because of his fierce anger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sister Posted May 20, 2017 Group: Royal Member Followers: 17 Topic Count: 50 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,727 Content Per Day: 1.04 Reputation: 2,305 Days Won: 5 Joined: 06/29/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted May 20, 2017 Ezekiel 34:2 Son of man, prophesy against the shepherds of Israel, prophesy, and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD unto the shepherds; Woe be to the shepherds of Israel that do feed themselves! should not the shepherds feed the flocks? Ezekiel 34:3 Ye eat the fat, and ye clothe you with the wool, ye kill them that are fed: but ye feed not the flock. Ezekiel 34:4 The diseased have ye not strengthened, neither have ye healed that which was sick, neither have ye bound up that which was broken, neither have ye brought again that which was driven away, neither have ye sought that which was lost; but with force and with cruelty have ye ruled them. Ezekiel 34:5 And they were scattered, because there is no shepherd: and they became meat to all the beasts of the field, when they were scattered. Ezekiel 34:6 My sheep wandered through all the mountains, and upon every high hill: yea, my flock was scattered upon all the face of the earth, and none did search or seek after them. Ezekiel 34:7 Therefore, ye shepherds, hear the word of the LORD; Ezekiel 34:8 As I live, saith the Lord GOD, surely because my flock became a prey, and my flock became meat to every beast of the field, because there was no shepherd, neither did my shepherds search for my flock, but the shepherds fed themselves, and fed not my flock; Ezekiel 34:9 Therefore, O ye shepherds, hear the word of the LORD; Ezekiel 34:10 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against the shepherds; and I will require my flock at their hand, and cause them to cease from feeding the flock; neither shall the shepherds feed themselves any more; for I will deliver my flock from their mouth, that they may not be meat for them. Ezekiel 34:11 For thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I, even I, will both search my sheep, and seek them out. Ezekiel 34:12 As a shepherd seeketh out his flock in the day that he is among his sheep that are scattered; so will I seek out my sheep, and will deliver them out of all places where they have been scattered in the cloudy and dark day. Ezekiel 34:13 And I will bring them out from the people, and gather them from the countries, and will bring them to their own land, and feed them upon the mountains of Israel by the rivers, and in all the inhabited places of the country. Ezekiel 34:14 I will feed them in a good pasture, and upon the high mountains of Israel shall their fold be: there shall they lie in a good fold, and in a fat pasture shall they feed upon the mountains of Israel. Ezekiel 34:15 I will feed my flock, and I will cause them to lie down, saith the Lord GOD. Ezekiel 34:16 I will seek that which was lost, and bring again that which was driven away, and will bind up that which was broken, and will strengthen that which was sick: but I will destroy the fat and the strong; I will feed them with judgment. Ezekiel 34:17 And as for you, O my flock, thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I judge between cattle and cattle, between the rams and the he goats. Ezekiel 34:18 Seemeth it a small thing unto you to have eaten up the good pasture, but ye must tread down with your feet the residue of your pastures? and to have drunk of the deep waters, but ye must foul the residue with your feet? Ezekiel 34:19 And as for my flock, they eat that which ye have trodden with your feet; and they drink that which ye have fouled with your feet. Ezekiel 34:20 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD unto them; Behold, I, even I, will judge between the fat cattle and between the lean cattle. Ezekiel 34:21 Because ye have thrust with side and with shoulder, and pushed all the diseased with your horns, till ye have scattered them abroad; Ezekiel 34:22 Therefore will I save my flock, and they shall no more be a prey; and I will judge between cattle and cattle. Ezekiel 34:23 And I will set up one shepherd over them, and he shall feed them, even my servant David; he shall feed them, and he shall be their shepherd. Ezekiel 34:24 And I the LORD will be their God, and my servant David a prince among them; I the LORD have spoken it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted May 21, 2017 Share Posted May 21, 2017 51 minutes ago, Sister said: DaughterofGrace We are not talking about the gospel of Thomas, Judas or Mary. I don't defend them. We are talking about Enoch. This is what God has to say about your scholars who are the shepherds you follow; The book of Enoch is just as indefensible as the Gospel of Thomas or any other false gospel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sister Posted May 21, 2017 Group: Royal Member Followers: 17 Topic Count: 50 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,727 Content Per Day: 1.04 Reputation: 2,305 Days Won: 5 Joined: 06/29/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted May 21, 2017 5 minutes ago, shiloh357 said: The book of Enoch is just as indefensible as the Gospel of Thomas or any other false gospel. reason? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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