wingnut-

Identifying signs and symbols and their placement in scripture

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There are many different positions in regards to end times events.  I believe it is important that we follow scripture to draw our conclusions in regards to what is to come.  So I am starting this thread to discuss the events of the end times in general, and to identify and show where and when these events take place.  Matthew 24 is the starting point, as this entire chapter as well as into chapter 25 is Jesus telling us Himself about these events and when they will take place.  It is Jesus that provides us with the symbols that ultimately tell the story and unscramble the book of Revelation that would come later.  In my view it is the only chronological telling that we have.

 

Matthew 24:3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?

 

It begins with a private discussion between Jesus and the disciples, the very group He chose to begin His church.  They ask him several questions, and He answers them in the same order they are asked.

 

Matthew 24:4 And Jesus answered and said to them: “Take heed that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many. 6 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

 

This is the beginning of the answer to the first question, when will these things be?  As we read this, it should be clear that we have seen all of these things in the world today.  Numerous people have claimed to be Jesus or the Son of God in my lifetime, many follow false teachings.  We have seen war, and rumors of war are on the news every day, particularly in the middle east.  We have also seen famines, pestilences and earthquakes in various places.  So far what we are seeing are signs, straightforward things, no symbols yet.  Jesus also makes it clear that this is just the beginning of sorrows.

 

Matthew 24:9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. 10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

 

In this segment we see that things begin to heat up a bit.  Some believe that this section of the gospel is somehow intended for Israel, even though they don't touch the NT or read it.  Jesus tells that believers will be delivered up to tribulation, and be killed for His name's sake.  Clearly this cannot apply to the Jews (not counting Messianic Jews of course) considering that they do not believe in Jesus.  They are still waiting for the Messiah.  Jesus also tells us that many will walk away from the truth and betray those who do not.  Paul also speaks of this in his writings to the  church, he refers to this as "falling away".  Jesus also says that the gospel will be preached in all the world, which it has been for the most part, the only exception possibly being some remote tribes.  Below is a reference to what Paul wrote about the falling away.

 

II Thessalonians 2:3  Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,

 

Paul tells us two things in that passage, that Day will not come until the falling away, and the anti-christ are revealed.

 

Matthew 24:15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

 

In this segment Jesus tells us that when the anti-christ desecrates the temple that those in Judea are to flee to the mountains.  He refers us to the OT prophet Daniel, and the prophecies of Daniel are well known to Jews.  The OT prophets have prophesied about these events, and when the remnant of Jews that are His see the abomination of desolation they will know where to go.  When you read the section in parentheses, understand that this means you.  Messianic Jews will understand from both the OT and NT teachings, but unbelieving Jews will only know by the OT prophets.  Jesus also says that from this point there will be great tribulation.

 

Matthew 24:23 “Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it. 24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you beforehand.

26 “Therefore if they say to you, ‘Look, He is in the desert!’ do not go out; or ‘Look, He is in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it. 27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 28 For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.

 

This concludes Jesus' answer to the first question asked, when will these things be?  Absolutely no mention of anyone going anywhere other than those in Judea fleeing to the mountains, and yet believers are already being persecuted and killed, and the anti-christ has already desecrated the temple.  Here is where that occurs in the book of Revelation.

 

Revelation 13:5 And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue for forty-two months. 6 Then he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, His tabernacle, and those who dwell in heaven. 7 It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation. 8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

9 If anyone has an ear, let him hear. 10 He who leads into captivity shall go into captivity; he who kills with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

 

42 months or 3 1/2 years is the time limit, he will make war with the saints during this time, saints are believers.  During this final 3 1/2 years Israel (the remnant) is taken out of the way and protected by the Lord.  This can be found in Revelation 12, and it excludes the saints mentioned as being anything other than believers.  That's what a saint is after all, and the last sentence says that patience and faith are required of them.  As we continue in Matthew 24, we see Jesus addresses the next question asked by the disciples, what will be the sign of your Coming?

 

Matthew 24:29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

 

So the sun goes dark, the moon goes dark, and the stars fall from heaven.  Then His sign will appear, and all the people on earth will see Him coming.  His angels will sound a trumpet and gather His children.  The gathering in the clouds is always found hand in hand with His Coming, no matter who the writer is.  We see the signs that happen in the sky here in Revelation.  

 

Revelation 6:12 I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood. 13 And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind. 14 Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place.

 

Sun goes dark, moon goes dark, and the stars fall from heaven.  Following that we see a reference to the fig tree, which is an important symbol to recognize as we continue in Matthew 24.

 

Matthew 24:32 “Now learn this parable from the fig tree: When its branch has already become tender and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near.33 So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near—at the doors!

 

This symbol is given by Jesus in the form of a parable, and directly linked with the signs involving the sun, moon, and stars.  They are all linked to His coming and the gathering together in the clouds, one event.

 

Matthew 24:36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only. 37 But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 40 Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left. 42 Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming. 43 But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into. 44 Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.

 

Jesus ties these events to a specific day, and a specific hour that only God the Father knows.  He also connects a very familiar concept that many refer to as the rapture to the symbol of the thief.  The concept of one being taken and one being left is commonly referred to as being left behind.  This is the gathering together in the clouds of believers.  The thief symbol goes with this and also to a specific hour, below is where you can find the thief symbol in Revelation.

 

Revelation 16:12 Then the sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up, so that the way of the kings from the east might be prepared. 13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs coming out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14 For they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go out to the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

15 “Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he who watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame.”

16 And they gathered them together to the place called in Hebrew, Armageddon.

 

The sixth seal and the sixth bowl are linked by these events, though the bowl comes first based on the placement of where Jesus tells us that He is coming as a thief.  Note that verse 15 is in quotations and we all know who is coming.  He comes just prior to Armageddon, in the last hour.  Below are some more examples of places this day and hour are spoken of in Revelation.

 

Revelation 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven saying, “Come out of her, my people, lest you share in her sins, and lest you receive of her plagues. 5 For her sins have reached to heaven, and God has remembered her iniquities. 6 Render to her just as she rendered to you, and repay her double according to her works; in the cup which she has mixed, mix double for her. 7 In the measure that she glorified herself and lived luxuriously, in the same measure give her torment and sorrow; for she says in her heart, ‘I sit as queen, and am no widow, and will not see sorrow.’ 8 Therefore her plagues will come in one day—death and mourning and famine. And she will be utterly burned with fire, for strong is the Lord God who judges her.

 

First we see the gathering where a voice from heaven calls out His children.  Another symbol found here is the reference to the cup.  And finally we see the reference to this happening in one day.  Continuing on....

 

Revelation 18:9 “The kings of the earth who committed fornication and lived luxuriously with her will weep and lament for her, when they see the smoke of her burning, 10 standing at a distance for fear of her torment, saying, ‘Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! For in one hour your judgment has come.’

 

Revelation 18:17 For in one hour such great riches came to nothing.’ Every shipmaster, all who travel by ship, sailors, and as many as trade on the sea, stood at a distance 18 and cried out when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, ‘What is like this great city?’

19 “They threw dust on their heads and cried out, weeping and wailing, and saying, ‘Alas, alas, that great city, in which all who had ships on the sea became rich by her wealth! For in one hour she is made desolate.’

20 “Rejoice over her, O heaven, and you holy apostles and prophets, for God has avenged you on her!”

 

This is that hour, on that day Jesus spoke of, and below is the conclusion of this event with more evidence that these things are linked.

 

Revelation 18:23 The light of a lamp shall not shine in you anymore, and the voice of bridegroom and bride shall not be heard in you anymore. For your merchants were the great men of the earth, for by your sorcery all the nations were deceived. 24 And in her was found the blood of prophets and saints, and of all who were slain on the earth.”

 

The voice of the bridegroom and bride have been removed, no more light, only darkness left, only the wicked, and only the battle of Armageddon left to come.  This concludes Jesus' answer to the disciples second question, what will be the sign of His Coming, and what follows in Matthew 24 is the first of 3 parables which leads into the end of the age.  I will share a few pieces from the parables which display that they are setting up the answer to the final question.

 

Matthew 24:48 But if that evil servant says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying his coming,’ 49 and begins to beat his fellow servants, and to eat and drink with the drunkards, 50 the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him and at an hour that he is not aware of,51 and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

 

Matthew 25:13 “Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour in which the Son of Man is coming.

 

Matthew 25:29 ‘For to everyone who has, more will be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who does not have, even what he has will be taken away. 30 And cast the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

 

The first two parables point again that His Coming is attached to a certain day and a certain hour, and all three reference His coming and how believers need to be prepared, and that all will give an account for their deeds.  The reference to the weeping and gnashing of teeth is pointing us to the end of the age, which ends following the Great White Throne Judgement which is made clear as we continue on.

 

Matthew 25:31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’

37 “Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? 38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’

41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’

44 “Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.

 

This concludes Jesus' answer to the disciples final question as to when the end of the age would be.  We see this take place here in Revelation.

 

Revelation 21:6 And He said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts. 7 He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son. 8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

 

Once the judgement is done we see all things are new, this is the beginning of the new age.  When "It is done", the age has ended and the new has entered.

God bless

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Posted (edited)

On 5/10/2017 at 0:39 PM, wingnut- said:

Matthew 24:3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?

 

It begins with a private discussion between Jesus and the disciples, the very group He chose to begin His church.  They ask him several questions, and He answers them in the same order they are asked.

 

Matthew 24:4 And Jesus answered and said to them: “Take heed that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many. 6 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

I think you place verses 7 and 8 here when verse 6 should be the dividing line here between What Jesus is speaking of happening to Jerusalem and the Temple and the overall 2000 year time frame between 70 AD and the coming Rapture. You see, when Jesus says BUT the end is not yet, he is telling them about the first event to unfold, the Romans destroying Jerusalem and the Temple, and Jesus warns the Disciples not to believe the tales of the Christ/Messiah having come again. He knew the Jewish leaders were going to try and FORCE a Messiah into place because they believed Rome was bringing forth the Little Horn. Thus the prophecy Jesus spoke came true John 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive. ANYWAY...Jesus tells them, the END IS NOT YET !! Then he moves past the Wars and Rumors of wars the Disciples would hear about and on to the 2000 year overall/panoramic view of the Church Age. Jesus basically warned his disciples not to return to Jerusalem when they heard of these things nor to think that the end times had come.

Then verses 7 and 8 should go along with  Verses 9-13 so I will skip down but include those two verses below in that grouping.

On 5/10/2017 at 0:39 PM, wingnut- said:

Matthew 24:9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. 10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

 

In this segment we see that things begin to heat up a bit.  Some believe that this section of the gospel is somehow intended for Israel, even though they don't touch the NT or read it.  Jesus tells that believers will be delivered up to tribulation, and be killed for His name's sake.  Clearly this cannot apply to the Jews (not counting Messianic Jews of course) considering that they do not believe in Jesus.  They are still waiting for the Messiah.  Jesus also tells us that many will walk away from the truth and betray those who do not.  Paul also speaks of this in his writings to the  church, he refers to this as "falling away".  Jesus also says that the gospel will be preached in all the world, which it has been for the most part, the only exception possibly being some remote tribes.  Below is a reference to what Paul wrote about the falling away.

Here Jesus was telling his Disciples about the coming 2000 year period between AD 70 and the Rapture. He Says Nation will rise against Nation and Kingdom against Kingdom and there will be Famines/Pestilences/Earthquakes....THE BEGGING Of Sorrows. 

Jesus warns the disciples they will be betrayed and face death, most died the Martyrs death. Then Jesus speaks about his followers in general, being persecuted for his names sake, but says he that endures to the End (of his life) shall be saved, you have to run the Marathon. Many false prophets will arise, of course we have seen many Jonestown types in these 2000 years. But lawlessness will abound, look around you, 100 Million murdered in the 20th Century by Fascism, Marxism Socialism, etc. etc. we are becoming a very coarse world. 

Then Jesus says AND...The Gospel must be preached unto all the World, then the end (END-TIME) will come. NOT UNTIL !!

 

I think Matthew 24:34-44 goes here, I think it is speaking about the coming Rapture, the Church of which there would be SOME Messianic Jews that also will be Raptured. So Jesus is obligated to speak of this also.

On 5/10/2017 at 0:39 PM, wingnut- said:

II Thessalonians 2:3  Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,

 

Paul tells us two things in that passage, that Day will not come until the falling away, and the anti-christ are revealed.

This is the DEPARTING of the Church, there is nothing in this passage that points towards the FAITH. The Church must be gone before the Beast comes forth.

 

On 5/10/2017 at 0:39 PM, wingnut- said:

Matthew 24:15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

 

In this segment Jesus tells us that when the anti-christ desecrates the temple that those in Judea are to flee to the mountains.  He refers us to the OT prophet Daniel, and the prophecies of Daniel are well known to Jews.  The OT prophets have prophesied about these events, and when the remnant of Jews that are His see the abomination of desolation they will know where to go.  When you read the section in parentheses, understand that this means you.  Messianic Jews will understand from both the OT and NT teachings, but unbelieving Jews will only know by the OT prophets.  Jesus also says that from this point there will be great tribulation.

If we read Malachi 4:5-6, we see that Israel repents before the Great and Terrible Day of the Lord which starts with the Seals being broken, which is when the Anti-Christ conquers Jerusalem and defiles the Temple and becomes The LAST BEAST which will reign only 42 Months. So, many Israeli peoples will indeed understand what is happening, because Israel as a Nation has already repented by this time, sure, there will be some Jewish peoples who refuse to accept Jesus as their Messiah and will be killed or serve the BEAST. And you are correct, this will be the GREATEST TRIBULATION EVER from this moment forward, because Jesus Wrath is now being released. But Jacobs Troubles is, imho, the full 7 years. Even the PEACE is forced upon Israel. 

On 5/10/2017 at 0:39 PM, wingnut- said:

Matthew 24:23 “Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it. 24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you beforehand.

26 “Therefore if they say to you, ‘Look, He is in the desert!’ do not go out; or ‘Look, He is in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it. 27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 28 For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.

 

This concludes Jesus' answer to the first question asked, when will these things be?  Absolutely no mention of anyone going anywhere other than those in Judea fleeing to the mountains, and yet believers are already being persecuted and killed, and the anti-christ has already desecrated the temple.  Here is where that occurs in the book of Revelation.

Like I stated, the Church has already been Raptured by this time. So what and who is Jesus warning here? He is warning the children of Israel who God is protecting in the Wilderness NOT TO COME OUT of their protected Zone where ever that is, where God is protecting them for 1260 Days (Rev. 12). He says false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders (Miracles) so that if it were possible they would deceive the VERY ELECT (Israel in the Wilderness) but that can not happen, because I have TOLD YOU or WARNED YOU. This is no doubt the Anti-Christ and False Prophet, this is not the ones mentioned in verses 7-13, these want to draw Israel out of their Safe Zone and KILL THEM !!! But Jesus says..............basically..............Don't go unto them, do not go unto the Desert or unto their Secret Chambers to find me, it will not be me, for I WILL COME IN THE EASTERN SKIES !! Boom

I usually place verses 27 and 28 with 29-31 but it fits here just as well, maybe better.....

On 5/10/2017 at 0:39 PM, wingnut- said:

Revelation 13:5 And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue for forty-two months. 6 Then he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, His tabernacle, and those who dwell in heaven. 7 It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation. 8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

9 If anyone has an ear, let him hear. 10 He who leads into captivity shall go into captivity; he who kills with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

 

42 months or 3 1/2 years is the time limit, he will make war with the saints during this time, saints are believers.  During this final 3 1/2 years Israel (the remnant) is taken out of the way and protected by the Lord.  This can be found in Revelation 12, and it excludes the saints mentioned as being anything other than believers.  That's what a saint is after all, and the last sentence says that patience and faith are required of them.  As we continue in Matthew 24, we see Jesus addresses the next question asked by the disciples, what will be the sign of your Coming?

Saints are Believers and also Israel are seen as Saints in Daniel and in most of the Old Testament. So John would have seen the same thing. Remember this, the Harlot has the Blood of the Saints AND the Martyrs of Jesus....we can't just assume something to be true brother. I think John referring to Saints is speaking about Israel in places and the Church in places when they are IN HEAVEN, but when he speaks of Both in the same passages, NOTICE, he speaks of Saints/WOMAN(Israel) or the Martyrs/REMNANT....He always differentiates the two when he mentions them in the same place. If the Church is mentioned in Heaven, he calls them Saints. By this time most of Israel are BELIEVERS anyway.

On 5/10/2017 at 0:39 PM, wingnut- said:

Matthew 24:29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

 

So the sun goes dark, the moon goes dark, and the stars fall from heaven.  Then His sign will appear, and all the people on earth will see Him coming.  His angels will sound a trumpet and gather His children.  The gathering in the clouds is always found hand in hand with His Coming, no matter who the writer is.  We see the signs that happen in the sky here in Revelation.  

The Church who has been in Heaven for 7 Years, comes back with Jesus here, after the TRIBULATION, we are Gathered from the FOUR CORNERS of Heaven, from one end of heaven to the other. The Sun, Moon and Stars are Seal 6, but the Wrath is 3.5 Years. And REMEMBER...We are gathered from HEAVEN.....Not Earth. The Wheat is Israel, they grow with the TARES until the END, the Church doesn't.

On 5/10/2017 at 0:39 PM, wingnut- said:

Revelation 6:12 I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood. 13 And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind. 14 Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place.

 

Sun goes dark, moon goes dark, and the stars fall from heaven.  Following that we see a reference to the fig tree, which is an important symbol to recognize as we continue in Matthew 24.

 

Matthew 24:32 “Now learn this parable from the fig tree: When its branch has already become tender and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near.33 So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near—at the doors!

 

This symbol is given by Jesus in the form of a parable, and directly linked with the signs involving the sun, moon, and stars.  They are all linked to His coming and the gathering together in the clouds, one event.

 

The Fig tree reference is only telling us when we see all of these things SUMMER is Near. So when Israel sees all of these things, since the Church is in Heaven, these signs are for Israel, and the Remnant if they can hide and survive.....when you see all of these things, UNDERSTAND that my Second Coming is Near. As per the stars falling I think that represents a sign also, of meteors hitting the earth or of Satan and his Angels being cast down to earth, I don't think because a Fig reference is used in two places it has to be the same thing, maybe John is speaking of a sign about the Angels being cast down to Heaven at the midway point, or a little after, but I am not sweating it. It is what it is..............

They are not linked with his coming PER SE, but they are.....its just TWO of the Events that happen during the 3.5 years of the Day of the Lord. But unto Israel/Jewish peoples, it is a Sign in Joel also, so this Darkness and blood moon is mentioned above all others, and that's OK with me.

On 5/10/2017 at 0:39 PM, wingnut- said:

Matthew 24:36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only. 37 But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 40 Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left. 42 Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming. 43 But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into. 44 Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.

 

Jesus ties these events to a specific day, and a specific hour that only God the Father knows.  He also connects a very familiar concept that many refer to as the rapture to the symbol of the thief.  The concept of one being taken and one being left is commonly referred to as being left behind.  This is the gathering together in the clouds of believers.  The thief symbol goes with this and also to a specific hour, below is where you can find the thief symbol in Revelation.

This is the Rapture.....People in Noah's time weren't living in fear. People before the rapture will be just like that, NOT LIVING IN FEAR of the Lord.....People living in the 70th Week WILL BE LIVING IN FEAR of the Lord.....Not marrying and living in gay ole times. As per the THIEF, like I have said in other places, different mentions in different places don't have to mean the same thing. Jesus used it first....Did john even understand the Rapture of the CHURCH? We know Paul did, John seeing this as the Second Coming might have thought what Matthew spoke of (John probably has to remember Jesus Words from 60 Years before) in the verses you mentioned was the Second Coming, so maybe he places the same reference here.....Either way, Jesus is coming to get us in the Rapture, then we are coming back with him in the Second Coming.

On 5/10/2017 at 0:39 PM, wingnut- said:

Revelation 16:12 Then the sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up, so that the way of the kings from the east might be prepared. 13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs coming out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14 For they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go out to the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

15 “Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he who watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame.”

16 And they gathered them together to the place called in Hebrew, Armageddon.

 

The sixth seal and the sixth bowl are linked by these events, though the bowl comes first based on the placement of where Jesus tells us that He is coming as a thief.  Note that verse 15 is in quotations and we all know who is coming.  He comes just prior to Armageddon, in the last hour.  Below are some more examples of places this day and hour are spoken of in Revelation.

The Sixth Seal and the Sixth Vial/Bowl are not linked events. The Bowls come last.

On 5/10/2017 at 0:39 PM, wingnut- said:

Revelation 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven saying, “Come out of her, my people, lest you share in her sins, and lest you receive of her plagues. 5 For her sins have reached to heaven, and God has remembered her iniquities. 6 Render to her just as she rendered to you, and repay her double according to her works; in the cup which she has mixed, mix double for her. 7 In the measure that she glorified herself and lived luxuriously, in the same measure give her torment and sorrow; for she says in her heart, ‘I sit as queen, and am no widow, and will not see sorrow.’ 8 Therefore her plagues will come in one day—death and mourning and famine. And she will be utterly burned with fire, for strong is the Lord God who judges her.

 

First we see the gathering where a voice from heaven calls out His children.  Another symbol found here is the reference to the cup.  And finally we see the reference to this happening in one day.  Continuing on....

This is about BABYLON.........Which is hit with plagues over a 3.5 year period, and Babylon is WORLD GOVERNMENT/The Statue, she will not be destroyed in ONE DAY just like the Kings that give their power unto the Anti-Christ don't rule with him for ONLY ONE HOUR......And the Day of the Lord is not ONE DAY.........But a Day when Gods Wrath Starts !! Babylon is World Government, or the Anti-Christ/BEAST who Conquers and Demands to be worshiped by all. He of course destroys Islam and all Religions, that is what happens to the Harlot (False Religion) the Kings in League with the Beast kills her off. 

IMHO, Jesus saying Come out of her is him telling Israel to Flee to the Wilderness.

On 5/10/2017 at 0:39 PM, wingnut- said:

Revelation 18:9 “The kings of the earth who committed fornication and lived luxuriously with her will weep and lament for her, when they see the smoke of her burning, 10 standing at a distance for fear of her torment, saying, ‘Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! For in one hour your judgment has come.’

 

Revelation 18:17 For in one hour such great riches came to nothing.’ Every shipmaster, all who travel by ship, sailors, and as many as trade on the sea, stood at a distance 18 and cried out when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, ‘What is like this great city?’

19 “They threw dust on their heads and cried out, weeping and wailing, and saying, ‘Alas, alas, that great city, in which all who had ships on the sea became rich by her wealth! For in one hour she is made desolate.’

20 “Rejoice over her, O heaven, and you holy apostles and prophets, for God has avenged you on her!”

 

This is that hour, on that day Jesus spoke of, and below is the conclusion of this event with more evidence that these things are linked.

Again, the Kings only RULE ONE HOUR with the BEAST....You have to understand that these things mean a SHORT TIME but not an Hour....As a matter of Fact the Kings rule with the Anti-Christ for ONE HOUR is probably for 3.5 years also, so this destruction is also possibly 3.5 Years, but it is not ONE HOUR.

On 5/10/2017 at 0:39 PM, wingnut- said:

Revelation 18:23 The light of a lamp shall not shine in you anymore, and the voice of bridegroom and bride shall not be heard in you anymore. For your merchants were the great men of the earth, for by your sorcery all the nations were deceived. 24 And in her was found the blood of prophets and saints, and of all who were slain on the earth.”

 

The voice of the bridegroom and bride have been removed, no more light, only darkness left, only the wicked, and only the battle of Armageddon left to come.  This concludes Jesus' answer to the disciples second question, what will be the sign of His Coming, and what follows in Matthew 24 is the first of 3 parables which leads into the end of the age.  I will share a few pieces from the parables which display that they are setting up the answer to the final question.

The Bridegroom was taken away a long time ago and the Church was Raptured before the 70th Week started. Of course this could be Israel having fled to the Wilderness, they are the Bride also.

 

Edited by Revelation Man
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On ‎11‎/‎05‎/‎2017 at 3:39 AM, wingnut- said:

 

Hi wingnut,

Everything that Jesus said there was to Israel. He spoke to them and it was their future He was talking about. As to the 12 disciples they did not know of the Body of Christ revelation, as it was given to the Apostle Paul. The 12 disciples were sent to the people of Israel to tell them as a nation to repent. They never heard of the Body of Christ till the Apostle Paul told them many years later.

Thus all you are looking at refers to Israel in the end-times.

regards, Marilyn. 

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On 5/12/2017 at 0:52 AM, Revelation Man said:

I think you place verses 7 and 8 here when verse 6 should be the dividing line here between What Jesus is speaking of happening to Jerusalem and the Temple and the overall 2000 year time frame between 70 AD and the coming Rapture.

 

Hello Rev Man,

I'm not sure what to make of your above statement.  If you are suggesting I wrote the gospel of Matthew you are mistaken, and if you are suggesting I spoke what was written you are also mistaken.  I didn't place anything anywhere, I am merely posting the scripture.  You claim that the dividing line should be elsewhere, and yet verse 8, which follows verses 4-7 specifically says....

 

Matthew 24:8  All these are the beginning of sorrows.

 

So clearly Jesus is saying that verses 4-7 are the very things He is speaking about in verse 8.  Sorry, but Jesus knows more about this than you, so I will just take scripture as it is written.

 

On 5/12/2017 at 0:52 AM, Revelation Man said:

The verses 7 and 8 should along with  Verses 9-13 so I will skip down but include those two below.

 

Again, your entire dialogue is based on a faulty premise, deciding for oneself what belongs where is sloppy exegesis.

 

Proverbs 3:5-6  Trust in the Lord with all your heart, And lean not on your own understanding; In all your ways acknowledge Him, And He shall direct your paths.

 

On 5/12/2017 at 0:52 AM, Revelation Man said:

I think Matthew 24:34-44 goes here, I think it is speaking about the coming Rapture, the Church of which there would be SOME Messianic Jews that also will be Raptured. So Jesus is obligated to speak of this also.

 

Again, if it belonged there then Jesus would have said it there, but He didn't, He said it much later.  What you or I think is meaningless, particularly if it opposes God's Word.  When it opposes the Word, what we think is clearly incorrect.

 

On 5/12/2017 at 0:52 AM, Revelation Man said:

Like I stated, the Church has already been Raptured by this time. So what and who is Jesus warning here? He is warning the children of Israel who God is protecting in the Wilderness NOT TO COME OUT of their protected Zone where ever that is, where God is protecting them for 1260 Days (Rev. 12). He says false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders (Miracles) so that if it were possible they would deceive the VERY ELECT (Israel in the Wilderness) but that can not happen, because I have TOLD YOU or WARNED YOU. This is no doubt the Anti-Christ and False Prophet, this is not the ones mentioned in verses 7-13, these want to draw Israel out of their Safe Zone and KILL THEM !!! But Jesus says..............basically..............Don't go unto them, do not go unto the Desert or unto their Secret Chambers to find me, it will not be me, for I WILL COME IN THE EASTERN SKIES !!

 

This entire section is a contradiction unto itself.  First you say the church has already been removed, but this is remarkably absent from the scripture to this point.  Second you say Israel is protected in the wilderness by God, but they have to be warned not to leave God to go out looking for God?  Why would they go out to look for Him when they are with Him?  Considering that they are with Him points to the fact that the individuals being warned are not Israel.  Here is the evidence that Israel is with God, and in no need to go looking for Him.

 

Hosea 2:14 “Therefore, behold, I will allure her,
Will bring her into the wilderness,
And speak comfort to her.

15 I will give her her vineyards from there,
And the Valley of Achor as a door of hope;
She shall sing there,
As in the days of her youth,
As in the day when she came up from the land of Egypt.

 

This is also confirmed by Isaiah...

 

Isaiah 65:8 Thus says the Lord:

“As the new wine is found in the cluster,
And one says, ‘Do not destroy it,
For a blessing is in it,’
So will I do for My servants’ sake,
That I may not destroy them all.
9 I will bring forth descendants from Jacob,
And from Judah an heir of My mountains;
My elect shall inherit it,
And My servants shall dwell there.
10 Sharon shall be a fold of flocks,
And the Valley of Achor a place for herds to lie down,
For My people who have sought Me.

 

 

On 5/12/2017 at 0:52 AM, Revelation Man said:

Saints are Believers and also Israel are seen as Saints in Daniel and in most of the Old Testament.

 

I agree, saints are believers, ethnicity is irrelevant when this term is used.  So let's take a look at how and when Daniel used the term saints and what he references.  Every single time Daniel uses this term all appear in a single chapter.

 

Daniel 7:18 But the saints of the Most High shall receive the kingdom, and possess the kingdom forever, even forever and ever.’

 

Daniel 7:21 “I was watching; and the same horn was making war against the saints, and prevailing against them, 22 until the Ancient of Days came, and a judgment was made in favor of the saints of the Most High, and the time came for the saints to possess the kingdom.

 

Daniel 7:25 He shall speak pompous words against the Most High,
Shall persecute the saints of the Most High,
And shall intend to change times and law.
Then the saints shall be given into his hand
For a time and times and half a time
.

26 ‘But the court shall be seated,
And they shall take away his dominion,
To consume and destroy it forever.
27 Then the kingdom and dominion,
And the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven,
Shall be given to the people, the saints of the Most High.
His kingdom is an everlasting kingdom,
And all dominions shall serve and obey Him.’

 

Pay particularly close attention to verses 25.  A time, times and half a time is 3 1/2 years.  That is 3 1/2 years that the beast will make war against the saints and prevail against the saints.  The same time that Israel is safe and protected in the wilderness by God, so who does that leave?  

The term saints appears in the OT 33 times, 21 of those are found in the Psalms, 2 in Deuteronomy, 5 in Daniel, and 1 time in I Samuel, II Chronicles, Job, Proverbs, and Zechariah.  In the Psalms the references are all to praise and worship, the others are all in regards to the end times or to the coming kingdom.

 

On 5/12/2017 at 0:52 AM, Revelation Man said:

By this time most of Israel are BELIEVERS anyway.

 

This is speculative and not really relevant anyway.  The fact is this, Israel is protected in the wilderness for the entire period of 3 1/2 years, the same period of time that the beast is waging war against the saints.  Israel cannot be touched, so attempting to include them in the persecution is faulty at its premise, it cannot happen and will not happen.

 

On 5/12/2017 at 0:52 AM, Revelation Man said:

As per the THIEF, like I have said in other places, different mentions in different places don't have to mean the same thing. Jesus used it first....Did john even understand the Rapture of the CHURCH?

 

First, what is the point of symbolism?  If the Lord gives you a sign, what is the point of the sign if it does not mean the same thing?  A sign is by definition used to point one in a direction, so for example, when you see a sign that says "one way" when driving a car do you get to decide when it means "one way" and when it does not?  When you see a rainbow in the sky what does that sign mean to you?  Does it change from one rainbow to the next?

As to your question about whether John understood or not, here is the scriptural answer.

 

John 14:26  But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.

 

Does that clarify for you what Matthew or John or any of the disciples knew?

 

On 5/12/2017 at 0:52 AM, Revelation Man said:

Fig tree reference is only telling us when we see all of these things SUMMER is Near. So when Israel sees all of these things, since the Church is in Heaven, these signs are for Israel, and the Remnant if they can hide and survive.

 

How could these signs be for Israel when they are found in the New Testament?  Israel rejects the New Testament as a false teaching, just as they rejected Jesus and handed him over to the Romans for crucifixion.  The important detail you are overlooking is that the fig tree signifies summer is coming, and that when the Lord comes it will be a dark, cold world.  Summer is near because once He has come, there will be light.

 

On 5/12/2017 at 0:52 AM, Revelation Man said:

As per the stars falling I think that represents a sign also, of meteors hitting the earth or of Satan and his Angels being cast down to earth, I don't think because a Fig reference is used in two places it has to be the same thing, maybe John is speaking of a sign about the Angels being cast down to Heaven at the midway point, or a little after, but I am not sweating it. It is what it is.

 

The meaning is two-fold, I agree that the stars falling is a reference to angels, another symbol consistent throughout the bible, but it is also literal.  The prophets Joel and Zechariah both prophecy about this day with no light, a day of darkness.  Also keep in mind that only a third of the angels follow the enemy, so when they are cast out of heaven once and for all this doesn't represent all the stars.  That separates the two events in my opinion, the halfway point is when the enemy is cast down, Jesus comes at the end.  When Jesus comes there will be no light except for Him, which is why it is said that every eye will see Him coming.  They will see Him coming because He will be the only source of light in the sky.

The quote below is what you said in response to this passage...

 

Matthew 24:36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only. 37 But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 40 Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left. 42 Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming. 43 But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into. 44 Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.

 

On 5/12/2017 at 0:52 AM, Revelation Man said:

This is the Rapture.....People in Noah's time weren't living in fear. People before the rapture will be just like that, NOT LIVING IN FEAR of the Lord.....People living in the 70th Week WILL BE LIVING IN FEAR of the Lord.....Not marrying and living in gay ole times.

 

Yes, this is what you refer to as the rapture, in scripture it is referred to as a gathering/ catching away.  It is attached to the symbol of the thief, and it appears in the same sequence in Matthew that it appears in Revelation 16, right at the end, just prior to Armageddon.

 

On 5/12/2017 at 0:52 AM, Revelation Man said:

The Sixth Seal and the Sixth Vial/Bowl are not linked events.

 

And yet the symbols we are given in scripture say otherwise.

You said the below in response to what I posted from Revelation 18.....

 

On 5/12/2017 at 0:52 AM, Revelation Man said:

IMHO, Jesus saying Come out of her is him telling Israel to Flee to the Wilderness.

 

Israel is told to flee when they see the abomination of desolation, they will recognize when to leave based on the writing of Daniel.  They will know which direction based on the instructions from Isaiah, Hosea, and Zechariah.  The messianic Jews will know based on all of the above and the instructions in Matthew 24.  The 2/3 of Israel that will be cut off and die happens because they do not know, and do not flee because they are not His people.  They are trampled under when Jerusalem falls just after the abomination of desolation takes place.

 

Revelation 11: 2 But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it has been given to the Gentiles. And they will tread the holy city underfoot for forty-two months.

 

Again, 42 months, or 3 1/2 years, or a time, times and half a time.  All the same time period, all taking place within that period.

 

On 5/12/2017 at 0:52 AM, Revelation Man said:

This is about BABYLON.........Which is hit with plagues over a 3.5 year period, and Babylon is WORLD GOVERNMENT/The Statue, she will not be destroyed in ONE DAY just like the Kings that give their power unto the Anti-Christ don't rule with him for ONLY ONE HOUR.

 

There are two battles, prophesied about by Ezekiel and confirmed in Revelation as well.  The fall of Mystery Babylon happens in just one hour, just like scripture says it will, and the kings will only have their kingdoms for that one hour.  This will be a slaughter, compare the evidence from Revelation.

 

Revelation 19:17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, “Come and gather together for the supper of the great God, 18 that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, both small and great.”19 And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army. 20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21 And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh. 

 

This is the end of the beast (anti-christ) and the false prophet, into the lake of fire they go.  Satan is bound, and when he is unbound there is a final battle.  The kings who have their kingdom for an hour fight and die here.  The final battle comes later, and the beast and false prophet are already in the lake of fire.  Confirmed in the passage below.

 

Revelation 20  Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; 3 and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while.

 

And now confirmation from the final battle....

 

Revelation 20:7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. 10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

 

The beast and false prophet are already in the lake of fire, indicated by the tense used in the passage, the devil joins them following the final battle.  Two battles, the final battle involving Gog and Magog which comes from Ezekiel's prophecy, we have come to know it as Armageddon.

 

On 5/12/2017 at 0:52 AM, Revelation Man said:

Again, the Kings only RULE ONE HOUR with the BEAST....You have to understand that these things mean a SHORT TIME but not an Hour....As a matter of Fact the Kings rule with the Anti-Christ for ONE HOUR is probably for 3.5 years also, so this destruction is also possibly 3.5 Years, but it is not ONE HOUR.

 

Again, here is a closer look at what takes place at that battle.  One must ask themselves how long this would take.

 

Revelation 19:15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written:

KING OF KINGS AND
LORD OF LORDS.

 

The OT prophets speak of fire coming from heaven, and the Lord speaking His enemies dead, or merely moving His hand to destroy them.  They don't stand a chance, this is the fury and wrath of God Almighty, it will be over quickly.  Whoever these kings are, they are merely pawns chosen to fight in this battle.  Also, this was written in Greek, where a day means a day and an hour means an hour.

 

On 5/12/2017 at 0:52 AM, Revelation Man said:

The Bridegroom was taken away a long time ago

 

The bridegroom is taken out right where scripture says it will be, so once again, I am going with what scripture says.

 

Revelation 16:15 “Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he who watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame.”

16 And they gathered them together to the place called in Hebrew, Armageddon.

 

God bless

 

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On 5/12/2017 at 1:40 AM, Marilyn C said:

Hi wingnut,

Everything that Jesus said there was to Israel. He spoke to them and it was their future He was talking about. 

 

 

Hello Marilyn,

Every time I see this claim it disturbs me more than the time before.  Jesus was speaking privately to His disciples, the people He chose to start the church.  The gospel according to Matthew is the first book of the New Testament, not the last book of the Old Testament.  The church was given the gospel message, then entrusted to deliver it.

 

Mark 16:15  And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature."

 

The great commission goes to the very heart of Christianity, it is our calling to deliver it, not Israel's.  Israel rejects the gospel, they rejected Jesus and handed Him over to be crucified.  Dismissing parts of the gospel is a dangerous precedent to see members of the church doing.

 

On 5/12/2017 at 1:40 AM, Marilyn C said:

As to the 12 disciples they did not know of the Body of Christ revelation, as it was given to the Apostle Paul. The 12 disciples were sent to the people of Israel to tell them as a nation to repent. They never heard of the Body of Christ till the Apostle Paul told them many years later.

 

That is not what scripture says at all.

 

John 14:26  But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.

 

A direct quote from Jesus to His disciples, long before Paul joined the right side.

God bless

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3 hours ago, wingnut- said:

 

Hello Marilyn,

Every time I see this claim it disturbs me more than the time before.  Jesus was speaking privately to His disciples, the people He chose to start the church.  The gospel according to Matthew is the first book of the New Testament, not the last book of the Old Testament.  The church was given the gospel message, then entrusted to deliver it.

Mark 16:15  And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature."

The great commission goes to the very heart of Christianity, it is our calling to deliver it, not Israel's.  Israel rejects the gospel, they rejected Jesus and handed Him over to be crucified.  Dismissing parts of the gospel is a dangerous precedent to see members of the church doing.

That is not what scripture says at all.

John 14:26  But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.

A direct quote from Jesus to His disciples, long before Paul joined the right side.

God bless

Hi wingnut,

I would love to discuss this with you bro, but do not want to derail your thread. I will wait for a thread on this topic.

Meanwhile you may like to look at Matt. 19: 28.

Also consider why the 12 apostles were different from the later apostles.

And..what actually did the 12 apostles teach. What good news did they bring and what good news did the apostle Paul teach.

regards, Marilyn.

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3 hours ago, wingnut- said:

Hello Rev Man,

I'm not sure what to make of your above statement.  If you are suggesting I wrote the gospel of Matthew you are mistaken, and if you are suggesting I spoke what was written you are also mistaken.  I didn't place anything anywhere, I am merely posting the scripture.  You claim that the dividing line should be elsewhere, and yet verse 8, which follows verses 4-7 specifically says....

Matthew 24:8  All these are the beginning of sorrows.

So clearly Jesus is saying that verses 4-7 are the very things He is speaking about in verse 8.  Sorry, but Jesus knows more about this than you, so I will just take scripture as it is written.

It is fairly clear, I am saying you have them grouped, so your groupings seem incorrect, imho. You mention 24:8 and ALL THESE are the beginning of Sorrows which mean BIRTH PANGS....Surly you don't think 2000 years ago were birth pangs (meaning the end is very near) do you? 

Its very clear to me, Jesus is speaking about Jerusalem and the Sanctuary's destruction in verse 6 and then says BUT THE END IS NOT YET !! Do you not get the difference? Its subtle, but there, the END is not Yet vs. These mean the END IS NEAR !! Catch that?

So lets divide it like I suggest and see if they make more sense......

5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. 6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. {{ The END IS NOT YET...Why would Jesus say this? He wanted his disciples to know this is not his Second Coming, just because Jerusalem/Temple are being destroyed, THAT WILL HAPPEN, I have forewarned you, but the END IS NOT NOW.....

 

7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows. {{ Here Jesus is saying just the opposite, when ye see these signs here, the END IS NEAR....Birth pangs are upon the world. Th former is about Israel only, this one is about many nations and many kingdoms. This is about the end of a 2000 year period, WW1, WW2 Famines/earthquake/pestilences. 100-150 million were murdered in the 20th Century by despots. These things means what verse 7 describes......not what verse 6 described. }}

3 hours ago, wingnut- said:

Again, your entire dialogue is based on a faulty premise, deciding for oneself what belongs where is sloppy exegesis.

 

Proverbs 3:5-6  Trust in the Lord with all your heart, And lean not on your own understanding; In all your ways acknowledge Him, And He shall direct your paths.

So your grouping them was OK, but me grouping them is wrong...you catch your own contradiction there. If I am correct, and I am because the Holy Spirit showed this to me, then verse 6 ends with Jerusalem and the Temple being destroyed. Then verses 7 to 13 was the rest of the time until the coming Rapture, and we are Raptured. The one mentions in strong terms, the END IS NOT YET, the other suggests when you see these Great Wars he END IS NEAR. Birth pans mean its on the way, but Jesus warns then, the Gospel has to b preached unto all the world first, so we nee to combine these things, what point in time to these things converge? NOW of course, the Gospel has been preached unto all the world with TV and Missionaries and we have had to GREAT WARS and much Famines/Earthquakes etc. etc. 

Posting those scriptures like that amuse me........The same people who post them don't understand they are making their argument, that they think CAN'T BE WRONG......I never trust in my understandings, I always trust in the Holy Spirit.

3 hours ago, wingnut- said:

Again, if it belonged there then Jesus would have said it there, but He didn't, He said it much later.  What you or I think is meaningless, particularly if it opposes God's Word.  When it opposes the Word, what we think is clearly incorrect.

 

Again, you don't know when Jesus said it, and Jesus also spoke Revelation out of order. Its amusing to me also to think you know when Jesus spoke things, no one was writing his words down when they were uttered, they went back, collected everyone's memories and wrote Jesus' saying down, then orchestrated them in a manner they thought was correct. If Jesus never taught his disciples about the Rapture, then those verses would sound like they belonged with verses 27-31, or just around that time. 

Again, you never try to debate my points, because you can't. In Noah's days they were drinking/marrying/no worries, just like pre tribulation Rapture. BUT....During Gods Wrath, they will not be doing these things, they will be in fear of the Lord Gods Wrath. All you can every come up with is this, which to me is nonsensical, Matthew of course placed these words here, he thought they went with the Second Coming. You suggesting that someone wrote down Jesus words in order is just nor a credible theory since the Gospels came forth 20-30 years after Jesus' death. You want to argue points that mean nothing in stead of the facts, people in Noah's days will not be acting like people in the Wrath of Gods days of Wrath. So this is about the PRE-RAPTURE People, acting as in the Days of Noah....one is taken and one is left. 

4 hours ago, wingnut- said:

This entire section is a contradiction unto itself.  First you say the church has already been removed, but this is remarkably absent from the scripture to this point.  Second you say Israel is protected in the wilderness by God, but they have to be warned not to leave God to go out looking for God?  Why would they go out to look for Him when they are with Him?  Considering that they are with Him points to the fact that the individuals being warned are not Israel.  Here is the evidence that Israel is with God, and in no need to go looking for Him.

 

Is it? That is for starters because Jesus only told/taught Paul about the Rapture and because you insist you know where Matt. 24:34-44 goes, even though you don't nor did Matthew, because he was not taught it. The Church is Raptured, and not believing or understanding that throws ones whole understandings, imho, out of whack. And it should be easy for all to see. Again, you act like Atheist who peddle double speak with that quip. Israel will be gathered int the Barn at some point right? Jesus will return at some point right?  So should Israel freeze in time and stay in the Wilderness forever? NO...They should and will com to Jesus when he returns, but Jesus only warned them, don't be deceived by someone claiming to be the Messiah who also preforms GREAT MIRACLES. So you quip makes no sense, of Course Satan can appear as an Angel of Light and deceive Israel. BUT...Jesus has told them where he will be coming from, out of the EASTERN SKIES.........So now they Can not be deceived, CAN THEY? Unless they are dumb, they will stay until they see Jesus coming in the EASTERN SKIES hence the Warning. God protects them with the EARTH like in Moses' time, after Satan can't get at them he gives up, that doesn't mean a wall of fire wall remain, up forever or what ever God uses, it just means God will not allow he Anti-Christ to get at Israel, then he understands this and moves on.  People are with God today, He lives in us and protects us....no one sees Him and many betray His call each day. You don't understand the passage it seems. God Himself his not sitting there on a Rock saying I am your protector. You also forget, God was with Israel when they came out of Egypt and they what? MURMURED AGAINST GOD.....And made themselves a Golden Calf.....but of course if GOD IS WITH THEM....They won'y go searching for other gods !! Come on man, remember you bible. You have preconceived ideas and then seem to seek to support them.........

4 hours ago, wingnut- said:

I agree, saints are believers, ethnicity is irrelevant when this term is used.  So let's take a look at how and when Daniel used the term saints and what he references.  Every single time Daniel uses this term all appear in a single chapter.

 

You left off what I stated in full....wherever Israel and the Church is mentioned in the same passage the Church is mentioned as Martyrs and Israel is mentioned as the Saints, or Israel is called the Woman and the Church is called the Remnant. At the Marriage to the Lamb all who make that are called Saints.

 

4 hours ago, wingnut- said:

Pay particularly close attention to verses 25.  A time, times and half a time is 3 1/2 years.  That is 3 1/2 years that the beast will make war against the saints and prevail against the saints.  The same time that Israel is safe and protected in the wilderness by God, so who does that leave?  

The term saints appears in the OT 33 times, 21 of those are found in the Psalms, 2 in Deuteronomy, 5 in Daniel, and 1 time in I Samuel, II Chronicles, Job, Proverbs, and Zechariah.  In the Psalms the references are all to praise and worship, the others are all in regards to the end times or to the coming kingdom.

This is not what you suggest, you seem to think all Israel heeds Jesus words, they don't, you will have many liberal Jewish people who scoff at any religious mention, and just because Israel as a whole turns to Jesus, you will also have some Pharisee types who will still cling to the Laws of Moses. Israel flees but not all Israel. The Saints will be persecuted and killed and trampled under foot 42 Months. The BEAST is Making War with Israel/Saints by Conquering them and killing many. 

IT ISN'T THE CHURCH who is in Heaven, this was one of the main scriptures that brought you down the road you are on. 

4 hours ago, wingnut- said:

This is speculative and not really relevant anyway.  The fact is this, Israel is protected in the wilderness for the entire period of 3 1/2 years, the same period of time that the beast is waging war against the saints.  Israel cannot be touched, so attempting to include them in the persecution is faulty at its premise, it cannot happen and will not happen.

 

The Church is in Heaven, the Saints are Israel, the only place in Revelation that John calls Christians Saints is where we see them mentioned in Heaven marrying the Lamb. Everywhere else they are Martyrs of Jesus or the Remnant of Christ. It is very relevant. Only the Jewish People who FLEE to the Wilderness are protected. Why do you think they FLEE? The Anti-Christ makes War with them !! 

5 hours ago, wingnut- said:

First, what is the point of symbolism?  If the Lord gives you a sign, what is the point of the sign if it does not mean the same thing?  A sign is by definition used to point one in a direction, so for example, when you see a sign that says "one way" when driving a car do you get to decide when it means "one way" and when it does not?  When you see a rainbow in the sky what does that sign mean to you?  Does it change from one rainbow to the next?

As to your question about whether John understood or not, here is the scriptural answer.

 

John 14:26  But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.

 

Does that clarify for you what Matthew or John or any of the disciples knew?

It can mean different things at different times. You might have TWO EVENTS where things happen in like manner. The Fig tree is a great example over not applying the scriptures correctly. In the Matthew verse it said SUMMER WAS NEAR when you see the Fruits getting ripe know these events are near. In the Rev. verse its speaking about Stars falling out of the skies like fruit AFTER they are Ripened. The two are clearly different subjects altogether. In one summer is near in the latter they are falling off the vines and summer is HERE.............And/or they are speaking about something falling out of the sky. 

5 hours ago, wingnut- said:

How could these signs be for Israel when they are found in the New Testament?  Israel rejects the New Testament as a false teaching, just as they rejected Jesus and handed him over to the Romans for crucifixion.  The important detail you are overlooking is that the fig tree signifies summer is coming, and that when the Lord comes it will be a dark, cold world.  Summer is near because once He has come, there will be light.

 

Everything Jesus did was to the Jewish peoples, even when he speaks about future events of the Church, which is seldom, he is doing so because Jews are involved. Jesus said I am come unto the Lost Sheep of Israel. I don't get how you guys do not grasp this. We are living in that time now, very soon Jesus is coming. Everything Jesus did involved Jews. 

5 hours ago, wingnut- said:

The meaning is two-fold, I agree that the stars falling is a reference to angels, another symbol consistent throughout the bible, but it is also literal.  The prophets Joel and Zechariah both prophecy about this day with no light, a day of darkness.  Also keep in mind that only a third of the angels follow the enemy, so when they are cast out of heaven once and for all this doesn't represent all the stars.  That separates the two events in my opinion, the halfway point is when the enemy is cast down, Jesus comes at the end.  When Jesus comes there will be no light except for Him, which is why it is said that every eye will see Him coming.  They will see Him coming because He will be the only source of light in the sky.

The quote below is what you said in response to this passage...

 

Matthew 24:36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only. 37 But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 40 Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left. 42 Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming. 43 But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into. 44 Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.

Again, you do the same thing as with the FIG....And try to insist both are the same, even though they aren't. Maybe John used a bad inference here. The Matthew 24:34-44 is the Rapture, again you want to ignore the Days of Noah, but no one will be marrying and partying in the Wrath of God. Its bad policy to allow ONE VERSE to dictate all of your understanding and what I see is you take one verse and over emphasize it instead of putting all the verses together like a Mosaic. Jesus s going to come like a thief on those at Armageddon, OK.....So the masses re going to be destroyed SUDDENLY.........That sounds about right to me. The facts are Revelation chapter 19 can't even be a chapter without a Rapture. Every thing you believe has to form to your NO RAPTURE Hypothesis, even though the Rapture is very clear.

5 hours ago, wingnut- said:

Yes, this is what you refer to as the rapture, in scripture it is referred to as a gathering/ catching away.  It is attached to the symbol of the thief, and it appears in the same sequence in Matthew that it appears in Revelation 16, right at the end, just prior to Armageddon.

 

Rev. 16 and 19 is the Second Coming, not the Rapture.  

5 hours ago, wingnut- said:

And yet the symbols we are given in scripture say otherwise.

You said the below in response to what I posted from Revelation 18.....

The Seals/Trumpets and Vials are events unto themselves. They all together last 3 1/2 years The Seals stars the Day of the Lords Wrath and the Seventh Vial ends it. How you get the Vials in front of the Seals is mind boggling to me.

5 hours ago, wingnut- said:

Israel is told to flee when they see the abomination of desolation, they will recognize when to leave based on the writing of Daniel.  They will know which direction based on the instructions from Isaiah, Hosea, and Zechariah.  The messianic Jews will know based on all of the above and the instructions in Matthew 24.  The 2/3 of Israel that will be cut off and die happens because they do not know, and do not flee because they are not His people.  They are trampled under when Jerusalem falls just after the abomination of desolation takes place.

 

Revelation 11: 2 But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it has been given to the Gentiles. And they will tread the holy city underfoot for forty-two months.

 

Again, 42 months, or 3 1/2 years, or a time, times and half a time.  All the same time period, all taking place within that period.

 

Revelation 17 comes AFTER THE END in Rev. 16:9 and the Angel says IT OS DONE. Thee is no Rev. 17 or 18. Revelation 17 is the Harlot or False Religion being destroyed, and that happens during the Rev. 6 Chapter, the Seals bring forth the Anti-Christ who destroys Islam and all Religions so as to become the ONLY GOD........Rev. 18 is Babylon being pummeled by the Seals/Trumpets and Vials of God. Rev. 16:9 IS BABYLON being Destroyed. The Nations that Gather at Armageddon is seen by God as Babylon, God SAYS SO.

Israel REPENTS before the Abomination of Desolation, Malachi 4:5-6 says they do. God is protecting an Israel who has repented. The Two-Witnesses come Before the Abomination of Desolation, that is why they die before the Anti-Christ, their timelines don't math exactly.

6 hours ago, wingnut- said:

There are two battles, prophesied about by Ezekiel and confirmed in Revelation as well.  The fall of Mystery Babylon happens in just one hour, just like scripture says it will, and the kings will only have their kingdoms for that one hour.  This will be a slaughter, compare the evidence from Revelation.

 

Revelation 19:17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, “Come and gather together for the supper of the great God, 18 that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, both small and great.”19 And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army. 20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21 And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh. 

 

This is the end of the beast (anti-christ) and the false prophet, into the lake of fire they go.  Satan is bound, and when he is unbound there is a final battle.  The kings who have their kingdom for an hour fight and die here.  The final battle comes later, and the beast and false prophet are already in the lake of fire.  Confirmed in the passage below.

 

Revelation 20  Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; 3 and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while.

 

And now confirmation from the final battle....

 

Revelation 20:7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. 10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

 

The beast and false prophet are already in the lake of fire, indicated by the tense used in the passage, the devil joins them following the final battle.  Two battles, the final battle involving Gog and Magog which comes from Ezekiel's prophecy, we have come to know it as Armageddon.

 

SURE.........Its one hour.......no one thinks the Kings reign for one hour. You want to take a book where everything in it is  allegorical and demand that the Kings are kings only one hour, just so Babylon can fall in one hour, even though both mean no such thing. 

Yea, everyone knows about Satan being bound a 1000 years, I don't know anyone who argues against that. And we don't know if the last war is truly Gog and Magog or John just used that Old Testament passage to describe this event.

6 hours ago, wingnut- said:

 

Revelation 16:15 “Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he who watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame.”

16 And they gathered them together to the place called in Hebrew, Armageddon.

 

God bless

The Bridegroom is Jesus, he went to sit on the throne a long time ago.

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On 5/12/2017 at 0:40 AM, Marilyn C said:

Hi wingnut,

Everything that Jesus said there was to Israel. He spoke to them and it was their future He was talking about. As to the 12 disciples they did not know of the Body of Christ revelation, as it was given to the Apostle Paul. The 12 disciples were sent to the people of Israel to tell them as a nation to repent. They never heard of the Body of Christ till the Apostle Paul told them many years later.

Thus all you are looking at refers to Israel in the end-times.

regards, Marilyn. 

You are CORRECT....But some Jewish peoples are always a PART of the Church. So some things are spoken of, like the Rapture in verses 24:34-44, because some Jews will be in the Rapture. And some of the Jewish people in the CHURCH no doubt, will be killed for Christ names sake. So you are right, but the Church is also spoken of, because he was speaking about future MESSIANIC JEWS also.

Does that make sense?

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26 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

You are CORRECT....But some Jewish peoples are always a PART of the Church. So some things are spoken of, like the Rapture in verses 24:34-44, because some Jews will be in the Rapture. And some of the Jewish people in the CHURCH no doubt, will be killed for Christ names sake. So you are right, but the Church is also spoken of, because he was speaking about future MESSIANIC JEWS also.

Does that make sense?

Hi Revelation Man,

I understand what you are trying to say, however I believe God`s word tells us that He has purposes for - the Body of Christ, Israel and the nations. Thus when Jesus is speaking to Israel, we can read about it, but it is Israel`s future He is talking about.

regards, Marilyn.

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On 11/05/2017 at 1:39 AM, wingnut- said:

There are many different positions in regards to end times events.  I believe it is important that we follow scripture to draw our conclusions in regards to what is to come.  So I am starting this thread to discuss the events of the end times in general, and to identify and show where and when these events take place.  Matthew 24 is the starting point, as this entire chapter as well as into chapter 25 is Jesus telling us Himself about these events and when they will take place.  It is Jesus that provides us with the symbols that ultimately tell the story and unscramble the book of Revelation that would come later.  In my view it is the only chronological telling that we have.

 

Matthew 24:3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?

 

It begins with a private discussion between Jesus and the disciples, the very group He chose to begin His church.  They ask him several questions, and He answers them in the same order they are asked.

 

Matthew 24:4 And Jesus answered and said to them: “Take heed that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many. 6 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

 

This is the beginning of the answer to the first question, when will these things be?  As we read this, it should be clear that we have seen all of these things in the world today.  Numerous people have claimed to be Jesus or the Son of God in my lifetime, many follow false teachings.  We have seen war, and rumors of war are on the news every day, particularly in the middle east.  We have also seen famines, pestilences and earthquakes in various places.  So far what we are seeing are signs, straightforward things, no symbols yet.  Jesus also makes it clear that this is just the beginning of sorrows.

 

Matthew 24:9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. 10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

 

In this segment we see that things begin to heat up a bit.  Some believe that this section of the gospel is somehow intended for Israel, even though they don't touch the NT or read it.  Jesus tells that believers will be delivered up to tribulation, and be killed for His name's sake.  Clearly this cannot apply to the Jews (not counting Messianic Jews of course) considering that they do not believe in Jesus.  They are still waiting for the Messiah.  Jesus also tells us that many will walk away from the truth and betray those who do not.  Paul also speaks of this in his writings to the  church, he refers to this as "falling away".  Jesus also says that the gospel will be preached in all the world, which it has been for the most part, the only exception possibly being some remote tribes.  Below is a reference to what Paul wrote about the falling away.

 

II Thessalonians 2:3  Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,

 

Paul tells us two things in that passage, that Day will not come until the falling away, and the anti-christ are revealed.

 

Matthew 24:15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

 

In this segment Jesus tells us that when the anti-christ desecrates the temple that those in Judea are to flee to the mountains.  He refers us to the OT prophet Daniel, and the prophecies of Daniel are well known to Jews.  The OT prophets have prophesied about these events, and when the remnant of Jews that are His see the abomination of desolation they will know where to go.  When you read the section in parentheses, understand that this means you.  Messianic Jews will understand from both the OT and NT teachings, but unbelieving Jews will only know by the OT prophets.  Jesus also says that from this point there will be great tribulation.

 

Matthew 24:23 “Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it. 24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you beforehand.

26 “Therefore if they say to you, ‘Look, He is in the desert!’ do not go out; or ‘Look, He is in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it. 27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 28 For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.

 

This concludes Jesus' answer to the first question asked, when will these things be?  Absolutely no mention of anyone going anywhere other than those in Judea fleeing to the mountains, and yet believers are already being persecuted and killed, and the anti-christ has already desecrated the temple.  Here is where that occurs in the book of Revelation.

 

Revelation 13:5 And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue for forty-two months. 6 Then he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, His tabernacle, and those who dwell in heaven. 7 It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation. 8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

9 If anyone has an ear, let him hear. 10 He who leads into captivity shall go into captivity; he who kills with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

 

42 months or 3 1/2 years is the time limit, he will make war with the saints during this time, saints are believers.  During this final 3 1/2 years Israel (the remnant) is taken out of the way and protected by the Lord.  This can be found in Revelation 12, and it excludes the saints mentioned as being anything other than believers.  That's what a saint is after all, and the last sentence says that patience and faith are required of them.  As we continue in Matthew 24, we see Jesus addresses the next question asked by the disciples, what will be the sign of your Coming?

 

Matthew 24:29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

 

So the sun goes dark, the moon goes dark, and the stars fall from heaven.  Then His sign will appear, and all the people on earth will see Him coming.  His angels will sound a trumpet and gather His children.  The gathering in the clouds is always found hand in hand with His Coming, no matter who the writer is.  We see the signs that happen in the sky here in Revelation.  

 

Revelation 6:12 I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood. 13 And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind. 14 Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place.

 

Sun goes dark, moon goes dark, and the stars fall from heaven.  Following that we see a reference to the fig tree, which is an important symbol to recognize as we continue in Matthew 24.

 

Matthew 24:32 “Now learn this parable from the fig tree: When its branch has already become tender and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near.33 So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near—at the doors!

 

This symbol is given by Jesus in the form of a parable, and directly linked with the signs involving the sun, moon, and stars.  They are all linked to His coming and the gathering together in the clouds, one event.

 

Matthew 24:36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only. 37 But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 40 Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left. 42 Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming. 43 But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into. 44 Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.

 

Jesus ties these events to a specific day, and a specific hour that only God the Father knows.  He also connects a very familiar concept that many refer to as the rapture to the symbol of the thief.  The concept of one being taken and one being left is commonly referred to as being left behind.  This is the gathering together in the clouds of believers.  The thief symbol goes with this and also to a specific hour, below is where you can find the thief symbol in Revelation.

 

Revelation 16:12 Then the sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up, so that the way of the kings from the east might be prepared. 13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs coming out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14 For they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go out to the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

15 “Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he who watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame.”

16 And they gathered them together to the place called in Hebrew, Armageddon.

 

The sixth seal and the sixth bowl are linked by these events, though the bowl comes first based on the placement of where Jesus tells us that He is coming as a thief.  Note that verse 15 is in quotations and we all know who is coming.  He comes just prior to Armageddon, in the last hour.  Below are some more examples of places this day and hour are spoken of in Revelation.

 

Revelation 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven saying, “Come out of her, my people, lest you share in her sins, and lest you receive of her plagues. 5 For her sins have reached to heaven, and God has remembered her iniquities. 6 Render to her just as she rendered to you, and repay her double according to her works; in the cup which she has mixed, mix double for her. 7 In the measure that she glorified herself and lived luxuriously, in the same measure give her torment and sorrow; for she says in her heart, ‘I sit as queen, and am no widow, and will not see sorrow.’ 8 Therefore her plagues will come in one day—death and mourning and famine. And she will be utterly burned with fire, for strong is the Lord God who judges her.

 

First we see the gathering where a voice from heaven calls out His children.  Another symbol found here is the reference to the cup.  And finally we see the reference to this happening in one day.  Continuing on....

 

Revelation 18:9 “The kings of the earth who committed fornication and lived luxuriously with her will weep and lament for her, when they see the smoke of her burning, 10 standing at a distance for fear of her torment, saying, ‘Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! For in one hour your judgment has come.’

 

Revelation 18:17 For in one hour such great riches came to nothing.’ Every shipmaster, all who travel by ship, sailors, and as many as trade on the sea, stood at a distance 18 and cried out when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, ‘What is like this great city?’

19 “They threw dust on their heads and cried out, weeping and wailing, and saying, ‘Alas, alas, that great city, in which all who had ships on the sea became rich by her wealth! For in one hour she is made desolate.’

20 “Rejoice over her, O heaven, and you holy apostles and prophets, for God has avenged you on her!”

 

This is that hour, on that day Jesus spoke of, and below is the conclusion of this event with more evidence that these things are linked.

 

Revelation 18:23 The light of a lamp shall not shine in you anymore, and the voice of bridegroom and bride shall not be heard in you anymore. For your merchants were the great men of the earth, for by your sorcery all the nations were deceived. 24 And in her was found the blood of prophets and saints, and of all who were slain on the earth.”

 

The voice of the bridegroom and bride have been removed, no more light, only darkness left, only the wicked, and only the battle of Armageddon left to come.  This concludes Jesus' answer to the disciples second question, what will be the sign of His Coming, and what follows in Matthew 24 is the first of 3 parables which leads into the end of the age.  I will share a few pieces from the parables which display that they are setting up the answer to the final question.

 

Matthew 24:48 But if that evil servant says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying his coming,’ 49 and begins to beat his fellow servants, and to eat and drink with the drunkards, 50 the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him and at an hour that he is not aware of,51 and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

 

Matthew 25:13 “Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour in which the Son of Man is coming.

 

Matthew 25:29 ‘For to everyone who has, more will be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who does not have, even what he has will be taken away. 30 And cast the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

 

The first two parables point again that His Coming is attached to a certain day and a certain hour, and all three reference His coming and how believers need to be prepared, and that all will give an account for their deeds.  The reference to the weeping and gnashing of teeth is pointing us to the end of the age, which ends following the Great White Throne Judgement which is made clear as we continue on.

 

Matthew 25:31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’

37 “Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? 38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’

41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’

44 “Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.

 

This concludes Jesus' answer to the disciples final question as to when the end of the age would be.  We see this take place here in Revelation.

 

Revelation 21:6 And He said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts. 7 He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son. 8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

 

Once the judgement is done we see all things are new, this is the beginning of the new age.  When "It is done", the age has ended and the new has entered.

God bless

Hi Wingnut, how did I miss this!  You nailed this, and I couldn't of explained it better. 

You got no likes on thurs, but I would like to give you 9 if I could.

.....Ok, it agrees to 99% of my view.  The 1 % we can talk about later.  A well presented argument stating the facts.  I enjoyed this.

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