Identifying signs and symbols and their placement in scripture

[Sister]

On 12/05/2017 at 0:52 PM, Revelation Man said:

I think you place verses 7 and 8 here when verse 6 should be the dividing line here between What Jesus is speaking of happening to Jerusalem and the Temple and the overall 2000 year time frame between 70 AD and the coming Rapture. You see, when Jesus says BUT the end is not yet, he is telling them about the first event to unfold,

Hi Revelation Man

Many think Jesus is speaking of the destruction in 70AD, but Wingnut demonstrated that the answer "was in the question" privately asked by his disciples, concerning his 2nd Coming.  I don't see how this can be refuted, and separated.  It's all speaking about the end for "the world", and not the end for Jerusalem. 

 

 

 

[Revelation Man]

13 minutes ago, Sister said:

Hi Revelation Man

Many think Jesus is speaking of the destruction in 70AD, but Wingnut demonstrated that the answer "was in the question" privately asked by his disciples, concerning his 2nd Coming.  I don't see how this can be refuted, and separated.  It's all speaking about the end for "the world", and not the end for Jerusalem. 

 

 

 

Instead of rehashing what I posted to Wingnut I will post my Exegesis on Matthew 24 and the three questions. Most people don't see the Temples Destruction question answered, but it's there.

Matthew 24 Revealed: Understanding The Timeline: The Three Questions:

Matthew 24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. 2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. 3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, (1)Tell us, when shall these things be? and (2)what shall be the sign of thy coming, AND (3) of the end of the world? 

The first question was about what Jesus had just said, the Temple being DESTROYED (When shall these things be?) The second question was what will be the Sign of your Coming......And the Third question was and what will be the SIGN (because they used AND) of the End of the World. So they wanted to know about the Temples destruction, and the Sign of Jesus' coming and the sign of the End of the World.

If Jesus is going to give them a sign/understanding of these events, wouldn't he walk them through the whole 2000 year period? I think he would, and clearly does. Lets go through a few of the verses to see why I believe as I do. And we know its a 2000 year period, its 2017 SMILE. Well Almost 2000.

Onward...... Matthew 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, take heed that no man deceive you. 5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

{{ Jesus here is warning the Disciples not to be deceived, it is well known that the Rabbis/Pharisees in order to put down the "Jesus movement" and because they thought the Roman occupation was the END TIMES and figured the Messiah would come and save them, put forth various Messiahs just before the Temple and Jerusalem's destruction, which was caused by their rebellion against Rome. Jesus is telling his Disciples not to fall for lies, many will come in my name, saying I am the Messiah, but they will not be me Returning, it is not that time he tells them, do not fall for the lies for the End is not yet. }}

Matthew 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 

{{ Jesus here is informing his Disciples that they will hear of Wars and Rumors of wars, no doubt Jesus knew many of the Disciples would venture afar taking the Gospel unto all the world, thus they would not see this destruction of the Temple, some would, but many would just HEAR OF IT, Jesus tells them, THIS IS NOT THE END !! Meaning that even though the Pharisees and Rabbis were looking for the Messiah to Save them, (from Rome) this was not the time of Jesus' Second Coming, thus he says, the END IS NOT YET !! }}

7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

{{ Then Jesus seems to shift past the lives of the Disciples and into a futuristic, 2000 year period of time from AD 70 to the Rapture. He speaks about Nations against Nations, Kingdoms against Kingdoms, famines, pestilences and earthquakes, and he says these are the Beginnings of Sorrows !! The Greek word used for sorrows implies BIRTH PANGS, this is Jesus telling the Disciples that all of these things Must happen first, and that will be the Sign (BIRTH PANG) that the end is Near. The next few verses are also covering the full 2000 year period, speaking at times about the Disciples, and at other times about the whole 2000 year period, until the Rapture. }}

Matthew 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. 10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

{{ I think this is mainly Jesus telling his Disciples their coming fate. Many people would betray them, and most all of the Disciples would become Martyrs, save John and a couple of others. They don't kill you if they don't hate you right? And no doubt, many betrayed them, like Judas betrayed Jesus. }}

11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

{{ I think this is speaking of the overall period from Jesus until the Rapture. Jesus throws this in to let everyone know, there will be many False Prophets (Jonestown, and cults like it have risen over the 2000 year period since Jesus' death) and because of Sin or the acceptance thereof, (at the End Times or Birth Pangs) the love of Many shall wax Cold.....Abortion, Murder, Homosexuality being pushed as normal etc. Then Jesus says, BUT..... out of all of these things I have described unto you all, (Matthew 24:4-13) he that endures all things that might come upon him, he that KEEPS THE FAITH until the End (of his life) the same shall be SAVED. In other words if we turn from God/Jesus and return unto the world, we will be Cast out of Jesus' mouth as Lukewarm. We must overcome Satan by the Blood of the Lamb, we can not turn back to living a sinful life, we must endure all of our temptations. It doesn't mean we will not Sin..........It just means we can not turn back unto a sinful lifestyle. WE MUST ENDURE IN CHRIST until the end. Amen }}

This above is Jesus answering the first of the three questions, "When shall these things be"? He walks them through the full 2000 year period between when he was alive, until he calls the Church home at the Rapture. The destruction of the Temple is spoken of but Jesus says, the end is not yet ! Then Jesus finishes the 2000 year period. The Rapture scriptures of Matthew 24:32-51 should actually be next, verses 32-51 should come after verse 13 or 14. But Mathew did not have a clue about the Rapture, so he (correctly) placed it with the Second Coming verses 27-31, at least in his thinking it was correct.

On to the 70th Week of Daniel now. The 3 1/2 years of Peace/Security followed by the 3 1/2 years of Gods Wrath. The Rapture happens after verse 13. In my honest opinion Matthew 24:34-51, belongs right here.....................

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Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. 15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, {whoso readeth, let him understand} 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

{{ Verse 14 kind of belongs with verses 4-13, but it can also go on this side of the 2000 year divide. It straddles the gap so to speak. The Gospel must be preached unto all the World, then the END WILL COME !! This is very clear, once the Church has preached the Gospel unto all the world for a witness to Jesus' saving Grace, then and only then can the End Times come upon us. Jesus then goes on to tell us/disciples about this End Time Period. He warns the Jewish peoples that when they see the Abomination of Desolation, spoken of by Daniel the Prophet, they should Flee Jerusalem. THIS IS AN END TIME EVENT.........There is no doubt about that at all. Now Jesus must answer the next two questions, what will be the Sign of thy coming, and what will be the end (of the age) of time. }}

Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. 23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

25 Behold, I have told you before. 26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. 27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

{{ Jesus is telling his Disciples, and thus warning the Jewish peoples of the coming Tribulation Period what to look for. He is warning them not to fall for the Anti-Christ and False Prophets tricks when they try to entice Israel to come out of their safe space, where God says in Revelation 12 that he will protect them for 1260 days, from the Dragon (Satan). Israel have accepted Jesus as their Messiah by this time. (Malachi 4:5-6) So of course the Anti-Christ and False Prophet wants to deceive them into thinking Jesus has RETURNED (because they want to kill them, of course) and is in the Desert or Secret Chambers !! But Jesus says do not fall for their lies, I will not be in the Desert or in a Secret Chambers....I will be coming from the Eastern Skies for all to see. Amen }}

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn (Vial 6 & 7), and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

{{ So, Jesus tells the Jewish peoples the Signs of his Coming and when the end shall be. This is the End of the Age, no doubt. IMMEDIATELY AFTER the Tribulation of those days (Troubles/Jacobs Trouble), these signs will be in the sky and then you will see me coming in the clouds from the East, and all the tribes and nations will see the Glory of my Coming. And the Angels will gather THE ELECT from the Four Corners of Heaven, [where the Church has been for SEVEN YEARS, Marrying the Lamb] and we will Return on White Horses with Jesus Christ just as Rev. 19 says. Amen. }} 

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Now Jesus has covered the largest base of the Jewish peoples because 85-95 percent of them will not receive the Lord Jesus Christ before the Rapture that Paul has spoken about in many places, including 1 Corinthians 15. So now Jesus must cover the few Messianic Jews plight. What will happen to them at the End Times? Well they will be Raptured, along with all the dead in Christ, and those of us who are alive when Jesus calls us home to Heaven, so we can Marry the Lamb (Rev. 19) and then return with him to destroy the Anti-Christ and his Minions.

So Matthew 34-44 tells about the coming Rapture of the Church, but I will only post verses 38-42, for it emphasizes everything that needs to be said, Jesus tells the Messianic Jews about their destiny : (This should come just after Matthew 24:13)

Matthew 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

{{ This of course happens right before the Tribulation, or Jacobs Troubles. If this actually happened during the Tribulation period would they be Drinking/Marrying and having a grand ole time? No, of course not, that makes no sense, the Jewish nation will be in hiding in the Wilderness, (Rev. 12) and the wicked men of earth will be dodging the plagues of Gods Wrath, there will be no one who will be having fun just before Jesus' SECOND COMING, that I can assure you !! So this is the Rapture here, we are expectant, but Surprised.

Jesus then illustrates what can only be the Rapture, it can not be the Second Coming. He says Two will be in the field and One will be taken and the other shall be left [Behind]. The same thing is spoken about with the women grinding at the mill, One will be taken and One left.

Then Jesus says WATCH, for you know not what hour when your Lord comes. Just like the Bride knew not what hour the Bridegroom was to come !! We know when Jesus' Second Coming will be. Exactly 42 Months after the Anti-Christ commits the Abomination of Desolation, AND.......everyone on earth will all see Jesus (with us at his side) splitting the Eastern skies, no one will be left behind, believe me, the Wicked will be DESTROYED, not left behind. Amen. }}

Matthew 24:1-6 is the questions and Jesus revealing when the City and Temple will be destroyed.

Matthew 24:7-13 is the 2000 year period from 70 AD to the Rapture.

Matthew 24:32-51 is the Rapture/Matthew thought it should be with the Second Coming.

Matthew 24:14-26 is the Abomination/Time of Troubles/False Prophet and Anti-Christ time.

Matthew 24:27-31 is the Second Coming of Jesus Christ. The Church will come back from Heaven with Jesus Christ on White Horses (Rev. 19) Amen, Glory to God.

Matthew 24:32-33 is about the Signs being Near.

Matthew 24:34-44 is the Rapture.

[Sister]

10 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Onward...... Matthew 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, take heed that no man deceive you. 5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

{{ Jesus here is warning the Disciples not to be deceived, it is well known that the Rabbis/Pharisees in order to put down the "Jesus movement" and because they thought the Roman occupation was the END TIMES and figured the Messiah would come and save them, put forth various Messiahs just before the Temple and Jerusalem's destruction, which was caused by their rebellion against Rome. Jesus is telling his Disciples not to fall for lies, many will come in my name, saying I am the Messiah, but they will not be me Returning, it is not that time he tells them, do not fall for the lies for the End is not yet. }}

Thank you Revelation Man for taking the time to explain all that for me.  I hear what you are saying and it makes sense in a sense.  But please consider, not every single little thing that Jesus spoke to his disciples are recorded.  We get snippets, and we get alot, but there there are some conversations that are left out.  Jesus expounded everything to his disciples, and he called many, but the ones he handpicked, are the ones he sent to deliver his doctrine after his departure, and made them our teachers for today.  So THEY were shown and told everything, only understanding didn't come until Christ rose.  And we don't have access to every single private conversation between Christ and his chosen ones. 

 

I am just wondering,  have you ever thought about this?

Matthew 24:4   And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

Matthew 24:5   For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

After Jesus' departure, a flood was sent to persecute all Christians, forcing them to flee Jerusalem.  It wouldn't of been a good time for false prophets to invite attention and persecution on themselves, so in my opinion, there would only of been maybe a few, not "many".

What is a false prophet?  A false prophet is someone who claims to be speaking and acting on behalf of God, preaching "spiritual things", and demonstrating with some form of power but his spirit is not of God.

False Prophets usually gain a following, they start a movement preaching their doctrine, and they have followers.  Their doctrines become their law, and they form churches. 

  Matthew 24:11   And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
 

Lets compare this;

There were only 7 churches around 70AD that God addressed.  All except for one were corrupted, but God still warns the sheep that truth has been taken from them and they need to wake up.

Today there are around 350 Christian churches, not 7.  All are preaching Christ's name, and declaring him. How many individuals have claimed they are Christ displaying miraculous wonders?  not many, and usually with only a handful following.  How many preachers have established new churches with a following of multitudes?  Many.  These are the false prophets and the many that come in Christ name in my opinion.  They are preaching Christ,...admitting Christ is who he says he is, and they are performing miracles like tongues, healings, casting out of spirits etc.  The outside looks good for the eyes, but their doctrines need to be checked.

So it started with a few, then grew to "many" coming in Christ's name.  Yes, of course it started back then, but the "many" is concerning the end times, and not a sign in my opinion that the temple will be destroyed in 70ad.  The "many" that come "in his name" are now. 

They should be warning the sheep that the Son of Perdition is coming soon, and prepare their flock that persecutions are coming, and to stay strong in the faith, regardless of what they do.  They should be warning against the Mark of the Beast, but instead prefer to tickle the ears of the their sheep and tell them how wonderful they are, and that they are saved no matter what, putting them into false security while lulling them to sleep.  I think this is the real danger of the false prophets, .....not preparing their flock, and in turn deceive the many.  Because once the Mark is out, that's it.  Take it and there's no turning back.  All our hard work and labour in the Lord will be turned to sin.  There will be a great chasm between the Lords children, and those whom the devil tempted at the last hour.  Too late to jump sides.

 

What do you think?

 

 

 

[Revelation Man]

On 5/14/2017 at 9:40 PM, Sister said:

Thank you Revelation Man for taking the time to explain all that for me.  I hear what you are saying and it makes sense in a sense.  But please consider, not every single little thing that Jesus spoke to his disciples are recorded.  We get snippets, and we get alot, but there there are some conversations that are left out.  Jesus expounded everything to his disciples, and he called many, but the ones he handpicked, are the ones he sent to deliver his doctrine after his departure, and made them our teachers for today.  So THEY were shown and told everything, only understanding didn't come until Christ rose.  And we don't have access to every single private conversation between Christ and his chosen ones. 

 

That was an Exegesis on Matthew I had saved and since it fit here I posted it. C&P edition. I also studied Luke 21 but used Matthew 24. Of course after they ask Jesus when shall these things shall be in Luke 21 Jesus said you will hear of wars and commotions, don't be terrified, for these things must come to pass FIRST, but the end is not by and by. 

THEN...Said he unto them, Nation shall rise against Nation and K vs. K.....etc. etc. Its pretty much the same, however if you read Luke it seems to separate the two instances a little more with the by and by....and with Jesus saying THEN.......Like in afterwards. 

It is true that the way they wrote the KJV in old English presents challenges, but that is why I go through each verse, pray about it and ask God for perception, then I use logic to boot. It is just natural that Jesus would tell them about the City and the Temples Destruction first, since that was what he was prophesying originally about to them before they asked him the other questions also. So Jesus wanted them to know Jerusalem's destruction was not the end. That is how I put that together. Its logical to boot. Of course if Jesus is going to tell them about the END he has to expand from his original talking points which were about the Temple and City being destroyed. That is why he says....THEN....and moves forward. 

On 5/14/2017 at 9:40 PM, Sister said:

I am just wondering,  have you ever thought about this?

Matthew 24:4   And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

Matthew 24:5   For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

After Jesus' departure, a flood was sent to persecute all Christians, forcing them to flee Jerusalem.  It wouldn't of been a good time for false prophets to invite attention and persecution on themselves, so in my opinion, there would only of been maybe a few, not "many".

What is a false prophet?  A false prophet is someone who claims to be speaking and acting on behalf of God, preaching "spiritual things", and demonstrating with some form of power but his spirit is not of God.

False Prophets usually gain a following, they start a movement preaching their doctrine, and they have followers.  Their doctrines become their law, and they form churches. 

  Matthew 24:11   And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
 

I think I covered this in the Exegesis, but I might not have hit on it in depth. You see, since verse 6 is the last verse that covers the Temple and Jerusalem's destruction, verses 4 and 5 are speaking about Messiahs forced to the fore by the religious peoples, Scribes/Pharisees of the day, they felt Rome was the Fourth Beast of Daniel 7 and a Little Horn was one of the soon to come Roman Rulers . Thus they thought the TRUE MESSIAH (Not Jesus in their minds) was due to come forth as a King of Kings and save them. But alas, of course they was wrong, but they kept bringing Messiahs forth.....thus Jesus' prophesy was fulfilled John 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

But the false prophets spoken of in Matthew 24:11 is AFTER the Temples destruction, it is in the overall 2000 years of tribulation all Christians must go/have gone through. For we are tried every day by Satan. Resist the Devil and he will flee from you. You see, Jesus isn't telling us the same thing twice.........the First is about the Temple and Jerusalem being destroyed, the Second warning is about 2000 years worth of false prophets coming and going in everyday life.

On 5/14/2017 at 9:40 PM, Sister said:

Lets compare this;

There were only 7 churches around 70AD that God addressed.  All except for one were corrupted, but God still warns the sheep that truth has been taken from them and they need to wake up.

Today there are around 350 Christian churches, not 7.  All are preaching Christ's name, and declaring him. How many individuals have claimed they are Christ displaying miraculous wonders?  not many, and usually with only a handful following.  How many preachers have established new churches with a following of multitudes?  Many.  These are the false prophets and the many that come in Christ name in my opinion.  They are preaching Christ,...admitting Christ is who he says he is, and they are performing miracles like tongues, healings, casting out of spirits etc.  The outside looks good for the eyes, but their doctrines need to be checked.

I think you are missing the main thrust of my argument which I pointed out. Bear with me here. This is why I separated these verses in sections. 1-6, 7-13, 14-26, 27-31....{32 and 33}.and 34-44 .......NOTICE THIS........BELOW. The last one is different then the first two.

Matthew 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. (Before 70 AD)

Mathew 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.  (From 70 AD to the Rapture)

Matthew 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

(Above is during the TRIBULATION, this is the False Prophet and the actual BEAST/Anti-Christ)

I agree you see, the first two are people deceiving others, in the first instance the Pharisees brought forth men they thought fit the Messiah, they were seeking desperately for someone to save them from Rome, the Fourth Beast of Daniel, but the Little Horn arises 2000 years later, they didn't understand that. 

The second instance is indeed all the false preachers and teachers DECEIVING MANY !!

BUT....The third instance is the true False Prophet and Anti-Christ, during the Tribulation period. You see, only the ones in the Tribulation period preforms wonders and miracles. The others just deceive the masses, these preform Miracles.

On 5/14/2017 at 9:40 PM, Sister said:

So it started with a few, then grew to "many" coming in Christ's name.  Yes, of course it started back then, but the "many" is concerning the end times, and not a sign in my opinion that the temple will be destroyed in 70ad.  The "many" that come "in his name" are now. 

They should be warning the sheep that the Son of Perdition is coming soon, and prepare their flock that persecutions are coming, and to stay strong in the faith, regardless of what they do.  They should be warning against the Mark of the Beast, but instead prefer to tickle the ears of the their sheep and tell them how wonderful they are, and that they are saved no matter what, putting them into false security while lulling them to sleep.  I think this is the real danger of the false prophets, .....not preparing their flock, and in turn deceive the many.  Because once the Mark is out, that's it.  Take it and there's no turning back.  All our hard work and labour in the Lord will be turned to sin.  There will be a great chasm between the Lords children, and those whom the devil tempted at the last hour.  Too late to jump sides.

 

What do you think?

"The many" reference, is Jesus warning the disciples not to come to Jerusalem when they hear of these things. Remember, they know Jesus is supposed to return on the Mt. of Olives, this is Jesus telling them......Don't fall for a lie, when you hear, from afar I have returned, STAY AWAY, for the End is NOT YET !! Then he goes further to explain MANY OTHER THINGS that comes after the 70 AD event....Nations will rise against Nations/Earthquakes/Famine/Pestilence. Jesus did not want them coming back to Jerusalem when all of these things were going down, they would have been killed, and with no John, we might have no Revelation? maybe not. It would have stifled the Churches growth for all the Disciples to have been killed at once. Jesus by saying the END IS NOT YET is saying what Sister? Don't come back to Jerusalem, it will not be me and/or the Second Coming..........that........will be by and by. Then he paints a picture of 2000 years of activity of the Church which will have some Jews in it at all times of course.

You see my timeline, that the Holy Spirit laid on my heart for Matthew 24 is very relevant imho. 

God bless.

Matthew 24:1-6 The questions and the Temple/Jerusalem being destroyed.

Matthew 24:7-13 is the 2000 year panoramic view from AD 70 until the Rapture.

Matthew 24:34-44 is the Rapture

Matthew 24:14-26 is the Times of Troubles/Jacobs Troubles/Tribulation/Abomination of Desolation.

Matthew 24:27-31 is the Second Coming

 

Edited May 16, 2017 by Revelation Man

[wingnut-]

On 5/13/2017 at 10:48 PM, Revelation Man said:

It is fairly clear, I am saying you have them grouped, so your groupings seem incorrect, imho. You mention 24:8 and ALL THESE are the beginning of Sorrows which mean BIRTH PANGS....Surly you don't think 2000 years ago were birth pangs (meaning the end is very near) do you? 

Its very clear to me, Jesus is speaking about Jerusalem and the Sanctuary's destruction in verse 6 and then says BUT THE END IS NOT YET !!

 

Hello Rev Man,

Thanks for clarifying for me what you meant there, and I agree with you.  Prior to their private discussion on the Mt. of Olives Jesus had told them about the destruction of the temple, and through verse 6 could easily be taken as the answer to the first part of their question, "when will these things be?"

Before I address the rest of your post, I would like you to clarify a few more things for me.  You keep making the claim that the disciples did not know about His coming and end time events, and you also seem to think that they didn't or couldn't have remembered what was said to them by Jesus.  I refuted this with scripture, and you failed to address it, so for now let's clear this up before we go any further.

 

26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.

 

This is Jesus speaking to the disciples, can you explain to me what this verse means to you?

 

II Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 

 

Also, can you please explain what the first part of the passage (highlighted in red) above means to you?

 

God bless

[wingnut-]

On 5/13/2017 at 7:46 PM, Marilyn C said:

Hi wingnut,

I would love to discuss this with you bro, but do not want to derail your thread.

 

Hello Marilyn,

I am more than willing to discuss anything in regards to end times in this thread, but first I would like to know what these verses mean to you, just the underlined section in the first verse will suffice.

 

II Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 

 

John 14:26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.

 

God bless

[Revelation Man]

12 hours ago, wingnut- said:

Before I address the rest of your post, I would like you to clarify a few more things for me.  You keep making the claim that the disciples did not know about His coming and end time events, and you also seem to think that they didn't or couldn't have remembered what was said to them by Jesus.  I refuted this with scripture, and you failed to address it, so for now let's clear this up before we go any further.

 

26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.

 

This is Jesus speaking to the disciples, can you explain to me what this verse means to you?

 

II Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 

 

Also, can you please explain what the first part of the passage (highlighted in red) above means to you?

 

I didn't address it because you keep making the same argument that I have already addressed, or at least thought I had. No one knows when the Rapture is as per the Day nor the Hour. And for some reason you assume God gives freely to all the same, this is just not factual. God wouldn't give Daniel information which Daniel kept trying to get God to give him, but the Angel told Daniel to seal it up, and that it would be known in the End Times. John ate a book, but was told not to reveal some things in Revelation. 

Likewise, God told Paul about the Rapture, he never mentioned it for the most part in the Old Testament. It's there vaguely in Daniel 12:2. But you seem to be implying that God wanted Matthew/Luke and all the Disciples to know about the Rapture, thus them not understanding it makes those scriptures you posted seem contradictory to what I am saying, but it isn't contradictory at all, because God gave the Rapture Message to the Disciple of the Gentiles, Paul. He is the one who brought it forth unto us, that's just how God works, its not my ways, it's Gods ways. He decides to do as He pleases. 

So just because Matthew did not know/understand about the Rapture doesn't mean the Scriptures you cite are not true. God does teach us all things......THAT HE WANTS TO......But just like Daniel there are things at certain times He doesn't want us to know, and thatdoesn't mean those scriptures you cited are wrong, it just means God works in various and mysterious ways at times. 

So I agree, verse 26 is true....But if God didn't want Matthew understanding about the Rapture, but instead intended Paul to give that unto us, then He couldn't tell him HEY MATTHEW.....That doesn't belong there....Move it up between verses 13 and 14, that's where those verses belong !! Then MATTHEW ASKS........Why?  God would have to explain then, well, the Rapture and the Second Coming are two different events, Matthew. YOU SEE MY POINT? You assume God wanted Matthew to know, I assume He gave the Rapture Doctrine to Paul. 

The same would go for the 2 Timothy scriptures, of Course.

By the way, I enjoy bouncing things off the wall with you. We learn from each other, and ultimately from God. 

Edited May 15, 2017 by Revelation Man

[wingnut-]

4 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

 

By the way, I enjoy bouncing things off the wall with you. We learn from each other, and ultimately from God. 

 

Hello Rev Man,

I enjoy discussing scripture as well, it is one of the things I enjoy most regarding my time on this site.  I am still not clear on your responses to my questions, so I am going to present them in another way.  Forget the subject matter that we are discussing and set it aside if you will.  I want to present a hypothetical situation to you in regards to these passages, and would appreciate a direct and honest response.

Let's say I am a newly converted Christian, and you are my pastor.  I come to you for clarification on something in scripture I don't understand.

I don't understand what Timothy is saying here, can you explain this part to me?

 

II Timothy 3:16  16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God

 

[Marilyn C]

13 hours ago, wingnut- said:

Hello Marilyn,

I am more than willing to discuss anything in regards to end times in this thread, but first I would like to know what these verses mean to you, just the underlined section in the first verse will suffice.

II Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 

John 14:26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.

God bless

Hi wingnut,

`All scripture is given by inspiration of God,` meaning God wrote it through others. All scripture is given by God to reveal Christ. Many think it is all about us. However we can read God`s word and learn of Christ and His purposes for - the Body of Christ, Israel and the nations. Many mix them up and make it all about us again.

As to the Holy Spirit teaching the disciples all things Jesus said to them ....Jesus never told the 12 disciples concerning the Body of Christ, as their purpose was in regard to Israel.

regards Marilyn.

[wingnut-]

4 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi wingnut,

`All scripture is given by inspiration of God,` meaning God wrote it through others. All scripture is given by God to reveal Christ. Many think it is all about us. However we can read God`s word and learn of Christ and His purposes for - the Body of Christ, Israel and the nations. Many mix them up and make it all about us again.

As to the Holy Spirit teaching the disciples all things Jesus said to them ....Jesus never told the 12 disciples concerning the Body of Christ, as their purpose was in regard to Israel.

regards Marilyn.

 

Hello Marilyn,

Thank you for the response, I am very much interested in discussing this in more detail, but don't want to get too far off topic here.  I will most likely start a thread on this in a more appropriate area of the forum and look forward to delving into this with you.  When I post it I will pm you with the title and section so you know where it is.

God bless