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Identifying signs and symbols and their placement in scripture


wingnut-

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22 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

I think I covered this in the Exegesis, but I might not have hit on it in depth. You see, since verse 6 is the last verse that covers the Temple and Jerusalem's destruction, verses 4 and 5 are speaking about Messiahs forced to the fore by the religious peoples, Scribes/Pharisees of the day, they felt Rome was the Fourth Beast of Daniel 7 and a Little Horn was one of the soon to come Roman Rulers . Thus they thought the TRUE MESSIAH (Not Jesus in their minds) was due to come forth as a King of Kings and save them. But alas, of course they was wrong, but they kept bringing Messiahs forth.....thus Jesus' prophesy was fulfilled John 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

But the false prophets spoken of in Matthew 24:11 is AFTER the Temples destruction, it is in the overall 2000 years of tribulation all Christians must go/have gone through. For we are tried every day by Satan. Resist the Devil and he will flee from you. You see, Jesus isn't telling us the same thing twice.........the First is about the Temple and Jerusalem being destroyed, the Second warning is about 2000 years worth of false prophets coming and going in everyday life.

Thank you Revelation Man, I read your whole reply, and it's good brother, not to put you down, but there's a few things that I see differently.  I've written my answer to your last reply about 3 times then deleted it.  My post was too long, because so many points to cover, and I just don't enjoy the back and forth thing too much anymore!, but thank you non the less.  The problem is not with you, but with me, I just don't have the patience today brother, to sit on here for hours.

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, wingnut- said:

 

Hello Marilyn,

Thank you for the response, I am very much interested in discussing this in more detail, but don't want to get too far off topic here.  I will most likely start a thread on this in a more appropriate area of the forum and look forward to delving into this with you.  When I post it I will pm you with the title and section so you know where it is.

God bless

Look forward to that, wingnut, when you are able.

Marilyn.

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12 hours ago, wingnut- said:

 

Hello Rev Man,

I enjoy discussing scripture as well, it is one of the things I enjoy most regarding my time on this site.  I am still not clear on your responses to my questions, so I am going to present them in another way.  Forget the subject matter that we are discussing and set it aside if you will.  I want to present a hypothetical situation to you in regards to these passages, and would appreciate a direct and honest response.

Let's say I am a newly converted Christian, and you are my pastor.  I come to you for clarification on something in scripture I don't understand.

I don't understand what Timothy is saying here, can you explain this part to me?

 

II Timothy 3:16  16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God

 

The Greek word used for Inspiration is theopneustos which means Divinely Inspired or God Breathed.  I understand the point you are trying to make, but you don't seem to be grasping my point. 

If God wanted Paul to understand the Rapture and he did, that doesn't mean God can't have different plans with other people. God doesn't have to reveal things he revealed to Paul to others. God revealed things to Daniel he never revealed to other prophets. And things to Ezekiel he never revealed to Daniel. I don't even understand your point. Just because God doesn't choose to reveal certain things to Matthew, doesn't mean what He did reveal to him wasn't divinely inspired. The two are not mutually exclusive. 

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7 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

The Greek word used for Inspiration is theopneustos which means Divinely Inspired or God Breathed.  I understand the point you are trying to make, but you don't seem to be grasping my point. 

If God wanted Paul to understand the Rapture and he did, that doesn't mean God can't have different plans with other people. God doesn't have to reveal things he revealed to Paul to others. God revealed things to Daniel he never revealed to other prophets. And things to Ezekiel he never revealed to Daniel. I don't even understand your point. Just because God doesn't choose to reveal certain things to Matthew, doesn't mean what He did reveal to him wasn't divinely inspired. The two are not mutually exclusive. 

 

:th_frusty:

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9 hours ago, wingnut- said:

 

:th_frusty:

You might need to take a break. 

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12 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

You might need to take a break. 

 

You think so?  Or perhaps it is simply a reflection of how frustrating it is when confronted with double talk.  Where do I see double talk?..... well, right here in the same post that led to my response.

 

10 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

 I understand the point you are trying to make, but you don't seem to be grasping my point. 

 

10 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

I don't even understand your point.

 

So which is it?  You understand my point or you do not?

You are completely capable of answering the question I asked, but are unwilling to do so.  Why?  Is it pride?  Could it be because the point you want me to grasp crumbles under the weight of an admission that scripture is the inerrant Word of God?  Your entire argument hinges on your belief that the gospel of Matthew was not inspired, because this admission confirms my point that God Himself wrote it, not Matthew.  This is why I wanted to address this before we continued.

 

You have basically answered your own question in regards to why it will be the same as it was in the days of Noah, people eating and drinking and giving themselves in marriage.  If people who are part of the Body of Christ are now questioning the divine inspiration of scripture, and trying to diminish the writers of it and chip away at biblical truths to support a theory, of course they will not recognize the time when it arrives.  They will just be going about their business as usual, most likely convinced that the plagues coming down on them are from some alien enemy that has not yet revealed itself.  Whatever the deception of that day will be, I believe Paul refers to it as "a strong delusion."

 

How can we have an honest discussion about the topic if you cannot give me an honest answer to a simple question?

God bless

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49 minutes ago, wingnut- said:

So which is it?  You understand my point or you do not?

 

This is nonsensical.........I said I understand the point you are TRYING to make, that all Scripture is of God. Then I stated you don't grasp my point which is God doesn't give the same information to ALL PEOPLES !! 

Thereby, adding the two above together, it is perfectly clear to me, and should be to you, that God doesn't give the same to all. Thus some have varied gifts and some are called to reveal different things. THUS....I don't understand why you would keep posting the same scripture, TRYING to make a point that is invalid. GOD DOESN'T GIVE TO EACH MAN THE SAME THINGS......That should be a fast and true fact that we all understand. So why even post the scripture? I know all scripture is God breathered, but just because you post that scripture doesn't change the facts.....Matthew was NOT GIVEN a Rapture understanding and Paul WAS given the Rapture understanding and that was ON PURPOSE..........So now tell me how Matthew was supposed to know if he wasn't given the understanding? That is why I stated in understand what you are TRYING to say with that scripture........BUT it doesn't fit, and that SHOULD BE EVIDENT to you, thus I don't understand the question, because I have explained it 3 times. In other words I understood your original thinking, but I have already answered it, CLEARLY imho, so I don't understand why the question keeps coming back. Instead of double speak, think double questioning on the same point.

1 Corinthians 12:4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all. 7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; 9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit. 10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

49 minutes ago, wingnut- said:

You are completely capable of answering the question I asked, but are unwilling to do so.  Why?  Is it pride?  Could it be because the point you want me to grasp crumbles under the weight of an admission that scripture is the inerrant Word of God?  Your entire argument hinges on your belief that the gospel of Matthew was not inspired, because this admission confirms my point that God Himself wrote it, not Matthew.  This is why I wanted to address this before we continued.

Seems you just didn't understand the answer, I GUESS. Speaking of pride, it seems your post above is dripping with it. And you are fibbing, or else you just can't comprehend the Gospel, I think you know exactly what I am saying but it just proves your theory wrong. Either you don't read in full and reply or you are just obtuse. Just because Matthew was not Given the Rapture understanding DOESN'T MEAN WHAT HE WAS GIVEN WAS NOT INSPIRED. But it proved your theory wrong so you have to play juvenile games. I don't play games.

 

Edited by Revelation Man
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6 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

This is nonsensical.........I said I understand the point you are TRYING to make, that all Scripture is of God. Then I stated you don't grasp my point which is God doesn't give the same information to ALL PEOPLES !! 

 

 

We're not talking about ALL PEOPLES, we are talking about 11 men that Jesus hand-picked and said this to.

 

John 14:25 “These things I have spoken to you while being present with you.26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.

 

This is God-breathed as well, is it true or is it false?  These 11 men would be taught ALL THINGS, and REMEMBER ALL THINGS HE SAID TO THEM.  You are aware that these 11 men received all gifts of the Spirit aren't you?  And that they were actually able to pass this special gift down to others?

 

What did Jesus say to the disciples?

 

Mark 16:15  And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature."

 

And what did He say in regards to Paul?

 

Acts 9:15 But the Lord said to him, “Go, for he is a chosen vessel of Mine to bear My name before Gentiles, kings, and the children of Israel."

 

Same thing, all the world includes Gentiles, kings, AND the children of Israel.  In short, everyone.  Same instruction given to the disciples.  They were all chosen vessels of His, period.

God bless

 

 

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44 minutes ago, wingnut- said:

We're not talking about ALL PEOPLES, we are talking about 11 men that Jesus hand-picked and said this to.

 

God gave the Rapture doctrine to, the Apostle to the Gentile. Don't even try to say God gave it to anyone else. Point out the scriptures that say so. You are losing credibility on the subject tbf. You seem too invested. Why didn't God reveal the Beasts to Isaiah instead of Daniel? 

The scripture you posted doesn't even back up your reasoning once again. Yes the Holy Spirit bring them unto memory of all things Jesus taught them, but he didn't teach them about the Rapture DID HE?  So that can't be brought back to their Remembrance. 

I could tell you about an event but not teach you what it was about and all you could remember was the DESCRIBED EVENT. If the event was a meeting of Preachers who were advocating the abolishment of the Death Penalty and all I told you was a bunch of Preachers gathered and drank coffee in a coffee shop, you could describe that in a book, but would have NO CLUE what the event was about. You are just using semantics. Jesus DID NOT TEACH Matthew about the Rapture, Jesus told Matthew about the Rapture Events, but he did not teach him about what it meant. I know the scriptures and exactly what they mean. 

I am finished with this conversation. It seems you can't ever move past a point that's made, I don't like going over the same thing 20 times. 

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6 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

God gave the Rapture doctrine to, the Apostle to the Gentile. Don't even try to say God gave it to anyone else. Point out the scriptures that say so.  

 

John 14:25 “These things I have spoken to you while being present with you.26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you."

 

There it is again.  I have posted it numerous times, and I have asked you to explain to me what it means to you.  You won't do it.  You accuse me of pride when I admitted to error and conceded your point as to where the first question the disciples asked took place.  Does that strike you as one too proud to admit error?  Or is the truth that the one who dodges easy questions to cling to an obvious error in their entire argument has the issue with pride?

 

 

14 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

Yes the Holy Spirit bring them unto memory of all things Jesus taught them, but he didn't teach them about the Rapture DID HE?

 

The gathering is found in the gospel of Matthew, chapter 24.  The entire premise of the left behind theology is found there as well, and you yourself have repeatedly stated that it is indeed what you call the rapture.

 

Matthew 24:31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

 

Matthew 24:40 Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left. 42 Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming.

 

And again, since your entire argument is based on what Matthew knew or did not know, completely denies the God-breathed words that were written and tries to paint this biblical truth as though Matthew were the author.  Pay particularly close attention to verse 42, "what hour your Lord is coming."  It is right there, hand in hand with the very event you agree is the rapture.  I offer you scripture, you reject it, all you offer in your posts is your opinion and insults.  It is a common tactic used when one cannot support their opinion with scripture, attack the other guy and try to discredit them.

 

24 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

I know the scriptures and exactly what they mean. 

 

If this is true, then it wouldn't be so difficult for you to answer simple questions.  And if it were true, then you could actually support what you are saying with scripture.  Here is one for you, how about you show me one time in scripture where the gathering/ catching away is spoken of and does not include His coming.

 

28 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

You are losing credibility on the subject

 

I am not the one who won't answer simple questions.  I am not the one who doesn't support what they are saying with scripture and doesn't acknowledge the scripture presented in return.  I am not the one who rejects biblical truths to build a comfortable theory around.  If you think all the eyes that read over this thread don't know when someone is dodging a simple question, you are mistaken.  Most probably agree with your position, but not your argument.  Did you notice how when I asked Marilyn the same questions she answered them?  Straight up direct answers, not some two paragraph diatribe that requires an interpreter.  And to put it bluntly, I am not seeking the approval of people anyway.

God bless

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