fixerupper Posted June 22, 2017 Group: Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service Followers: 1 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 430 Content Per Day: 0.17 Reputation: 131 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/20/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted June 22, 2017 On 6/19/2017 at 3:02 PM, Jaydog1976 said: Wingnut can I ask you why figuring out when the rapture is going to occur is so vitally important to you? All three views Pre, Mid an Post all have very valid points and that is why we have 3 distinct opinions on when it will happen. Are we to so focus on these issues instead of going out and serving the Lord waiting for His return? While I respect your viewpoint it isn't the correct one for sure. Neither is Pre or Mid. Bottom line we don't quite know when the rapture will happen. We do know that it will. So let's look at it this way if Pre-trib (which I know you don't hold to and that is ok neither do I) happens then great we will be pleasantly surprised. If it is Mid-trib(which I hold a little more closely to and I still respect your opinion) God will give us the grace to go through whatever we have to go through. If it is Post-trib (which your view is closest to) then again God will give us what we need to go through whatever we as believers will have to go through. Bottom line is this no one, not even you wing-nut knows when the rapture will occur but yet we can all agree that it will happen because scriptures says it will. To me knowing when that will happen is not an issue since I know it will happen and that I will be a part of it. From reading this thread I do not really see much of a discussion more than I see some arguing about points that godlier men than you and I disagree on. I would prefer to go out and be serving God and pray that when that rapture happens I am in the middle of living for Him. Wouldn't you agree? Yes we do know when the rapture occurs. Jesus said after the tribulation, Paul said the parousia and the gathering happen together after the man of sin is revealed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fixerupper Posted June 22, 2017 Group: Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service Followers: 1 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 430 Content Per Day: 0.17 Reputation: 131 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/20/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted June 22, 2017 (edited) On 6/19/2017 at 3:21 PM, angels4u said: Agree,it's not something to be concerned about ,the key is are we ready to meet the Lord at ANY time:) Is it well with our souls? Well it is something to be concerned about. We have been warned of the coming tribulation and all the bad in it. We have been given signs that precede it so that we can physically and spiritually prepare for it. Edited June 23, 2017 by fixerupper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wingnut- Posted June 23, 2017 Group: Royal Member Followers: 39 Topic Count: 101 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 7,673 Content Per Day: 1.31 Reputation: 7,358 Days Won: 67 Joined: 04/22/2008 Status: Offline Author Share Posted June 23, 2017 5 minutes ago, Davida said: fixeruppper hello, please give what is that scripture that you claim Jesus said "after" the tribulation? I can help with that, it is the only place in all of scripture where we see Him announce He comes. Revelation 16:15 “Behold, I am coming like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake, keeping his garments on, that he may not go about naked and be seen exposed!” 16 And they assembled them at the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon. This is why I am certain of the timing, because it is given in scripture. God bless Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wingnut- Posted June 23, 2017 Group: Royal Member Followers: 39 Topic Count: 101 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 7,673 Content Per Day: 1.31 Reputation: 7,358 Days Won: 67 Joined: 04/22/2008 Status: Offline Author Share Posted June 23, 2017 50 minutes ago, Davida said: Hi Wingnut, pardon but I do not see it that way. The Bible says the Believers are not appointed unto wrath. Hello Davida, I agree believers are not appointed to suffer His wrath, nor will we, to me this is covered going back to Exodus. Exodus 12:23 For the Lord will pass through to strike the Egyptians, and when he sees the blood on the lintel and on the two doorposts, the Lord will pass over the door and will not allow the destroyer to enter your houses to strike you. 24 You shall observe this rite as a statute for you and for your sons forever. Believers are covered by the blood of Jesus, the seal of the Holy Spirit. This is also why we only see the seal being applied to the remnant of unbelieving Israel in Revelation. 12 minutes ago, Davida said: In the Rapture the Lord Jesus only comes half way - HE meets His bride in the air and takes us to be with HIM. Well, there really is no scripture to support that He only comes halfway, or that there is more than a Second Coming. The passages that are used for this belief all specifically mention His coming. I Corinthians 15:20 But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. Paul gives the order of resurrection in I Corinthians 15, Christ the firstfruits having already occurred at His resurrection, the next will be at His coming, and what immediately follows in verse 24 indicates what immediately follows which doesn't allow for the tribulation in between. I Corinthians 15:24 Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. This points to what follows the millennium, His reign on earth and death being done away with. The passage from I Thessalonians is no different. I Thessalonians 4:14 For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. 15 For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. This passage tells us that He brings those who have previously died with Him, and that it is also at His coming. Those who are alive and remain meet them in the air, but all of these speak of His coming. 35 minutes ago, Davida said: The True Church, the Bride, the Believers will be taken out of here before the LORD's Day - which is when HE will pour out HIS wrath upon the earth. We agree on this, the difference is in what we view as the day of the Lord or the Lord's day as you referred to it. This is where the difference is, and it takes us back to the reference of the thief, which keep in mind is what He proclaims when He comes, as the passage states, I come as a thief. I Thessalonians 5:2 For you yourselves are fully aware that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 While people are saying, “There is peace and security,” then sudden destruction will come upon them as labor pains come upon a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. Paul and John are both referring to the same event, the day of the Lord. It brings sudden destruction, and when the Lord says destruction He means it, which is why they will not escape. Peter writes of the same thing and clarifies how the sudden destruction comes about. II Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed. 11 Since all these things are thus to be dissolved, what sort of people ought you to be in lives of holiness and godliness, 12 waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be set on fire and dissolved, and the heavenly bodies will melt as they burn! When this occurs the gathering will have already taken place, the gathering will be at the outset of this day as I see it. This is why I suppose people refer to the position as pre-wrath, although the difference in timing with post-trib is minimal as I see it. Anyway, just something to consider, at the very least hopefully it helps you understand what I believe. God bless Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wingnut- Posted June 23, 2017 Group: Royal Member Followers: 39 Topic Count: 101 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 7,673 Content Per Day: 1.31 Reputation: 7,358 Days Won: 67 Joined: 04/22/2008 Status: Offline Author Share Posted June 23, 2017 17 minutes ago, Davida said: 1 Thess 4:17 " After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever." He meets us in the clouds - that is half- way. He does not come to the earth at this coming. He brings us up to meet Him in the air & takes us to be with HIM in heaven , then the Bride later returns to earth with HIM. Wingnut I will have to read it and respond later, I have too busy a day , but I will respond later to your post, Brother. No problem davida, take your time, I'm in no hurry. God bless Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fixerupper Posted June 23, 2017 Group: Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service Followers: 1 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 430 Content Per Day: 0.17 Reputation: 131 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/20/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted June 23, 2017 (edited) Quote The Bible says the Believers are not appointed unto wrath. And that THAT wrath is attributed to salvation and averted by Christ through repentance. NOT a rapture. Quote In the Rapture the Lord Jesus only comes half way - HE meets His bride in the air and takes us to be with HIM. Jesus returns in the clouds in Mathew 24:30, and says the gathering occurs AFTER the tribulation. In 1 Thes. 4 we are caught up into the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. So what's the problem? "Immediately after the tribulation of those days...And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven...And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." In Mathew 24:30 Jesus returns in the clouds to gather his elect, in 1 Thes. 4:17 we are caught up into the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. First Thessalonians 4:17 “Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. Therefore encourage one another with these words.” Christ just pauses in the clouds as he comes to earth, you guys don't have to fabricate another rapture and another return of Christ over it. In Revelation 14, the Son of Man sits upon a cloud harvesting souls, that's the rapture. It really isn't that difficult or complicated to figure out. The pre-trib rendition of Revelation 14 is loaded with internal contradictions that you guys completely disregard. Quote We are with Him in heaven and will return with HIM and His army of angels. The True Church, the Bride, the Believers will be taken out of here before the LORD's Day - which is when HE will pour out HIS wrath upon the earth. The Lord's Day isn't the tribulation period. That day comes at the end of it. Quote The wrath of GOD is going to be poured out on the world in during the Tribulation. Quote The wrath of God comes when the vials are poured out. What is the first thing that happens before a Nation declares war upon another Nation? They remove all their Diplomats , they remove all their Representatives. This is exactly what the Kingdom of GOD does HE removes the BELIEVERS from this earth before HE DECLARES WAR upon the Wicked World. Christ doesn't do battle until he returns at the end of tribulation to destroy them who destroy the earth. He removes his own at that time to prevent friendly fire. Removing them sooner would be contradictory to Jesus words in Mathew 24, and Pauls words in 1 and 2 Thes. To remove them before the tribulation isn't implied anywhere is the NT and completely contradicts 1 Thes. 3:3-13. But pre-tribbers don't care about contradiction because they've accepted all the fabrications that counter those contradictions. "We are told to suffer tribulation up to the time when Christ shall come to be glorified in His saints. This passage alone thoroughly debunks pre-tribulationism. 1 Thes. 3:3-13 That no man should be moved by these afflictions; for yourselves know that we are appointed thereunto. For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know. So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure: [Which is] a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer: Seeing [it is] a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels. In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day. Quote The Day of the Lord is God's Wrath being poured out upon the earth. This will not happen until the Restrainer is removed. The Restrainer is the Holy Spirit that is present in the True Believers. I don't think you realize just how contradictory that statement is. This isn't the holy spirit. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. The mystery of iniquity is already at work and the one who lets it work will be taken out of the way? So the Holy Spirit is present in true believers and lets the Mystery of iniquity (Lawlessness) work in them? And then the Holy Spirit is removed during the tribulation? It just impresses me what people fall for. Jesus said, "I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee. Edited June 24, 2017 by fixerupper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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