Ecumenism: "Why Can't We Be Friends?"

[Fidei Defensor]

27 minutes ago, Davida said:

No I really believe you are advocating The  Ecumenical movement of Rome-- period -- but are trying desperately to reframe it.   No thanks! It is snake oil you are peddling , it is the same as which is coming from Rome- to reverse the reformation. 

Are you me? I said I am not advocating Rome’s ecumenism, especially under this Pope Francis (see Christian News to see what I have said). 

The ecumenism I advocate is on page one, post one, and it is to foster relationships and understanding between denominations. And now I add pray for Jesus to come quickly so that the full unity may happen. 

[Fidei Defensor]

1 minute ago, Davida said:

I think you are misinterpreting scripture.  

Well that’s your view, I disagree. If you disagree then contend with what I say, with your arguments and source, but please refrain from telling me I advocating an ecumenism (Rome’s) I have tireless said is not the ecumenism I am for. 

To quote @listener24 there is “bad ecumenism tha conrpomises Truth, ans there is good ecumenism.” I am for the good, for building bridges and loving our brothers and sisters in Christ in their different circles, church’s, denominations, and etc (John 13:34-35). 

[Fidei Defensor]

7 minutes ago, Davida said:

All of the churches that are associated with my church are in unity & even more than that meet at yearly conferences , women's  & men's conferences.  Are we in unity with the Roman Catholic Church's dogama -  no , neither are we in agreement with the kingdom now people, or the ones that are enemies of Israel & think the church received Israels blessings, neither are we in agreement or unity with the New Apostolic Reformation, or with various Pastors & their mega churches etc.....  

You are misinterpreting scripture and taking it out of context. 

Show me how it’s out of context. Prove it with Scripture upon Scripture. “I am held captive to the word of God, unless I am convinced by Scripture and Plain Reason..” (Martin Luther). 

I disagree with Pre-Trin people, but I don’t say they are out of context, I know they understand the Scriptures in Revelation different than me. So I say, “I disagree, but understand where you are coming from.” 

There is much in Scripture that requires interpretation and people have many ideas. We all need the Holy Spirit’s help in discerning what it means (John 14:26, John 15:26). Ans often all the answers are right because what our Lord Jesus Christ says and his apostles say has layers like an onion: what was for that time only, to that specific church like Corinth, what is universal for all time and Christians (Romans 10:9-10), What is personal word and revelation for you from the Holy Spirit as you read the Scripture, and etc, 

[Fidei Defensor]

5 minutes ago, Davida said:

Didn't you infer in another thread that Bethel church are saved believers if they give lip service to the name of Jesus?  The Lord said by their fruit....and the fruit of bethel is not recognizable by the Bible. They practice grave sucking for eg. this group is acting nothing like saved holy spirit lead believers but they are behaving as a Cult & spiritualists. Families have lost members to this dangerous cult.  

The Bible says you can tell someone is Saved in these ways: 

“If you declare (confess) with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.” (Romans 10:9-10) 

“If anyone confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God lives in them and they in God.” (1 John 4:15)

”For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day." (John 6:40) 

“For God so loved the world,[a] that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.” (John 3:16-18) 

“God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you can’t take credit for this; it is a gift from God. 9 Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it.” (Ephesians 2:8-9)

“For God so loved the world,[a] that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.“ (Acts 4:10-12) 

“Peter got up and addressed them: “Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. 8God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. 9He did not discriminate between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. 10Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear? 11No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.” (Acts 15:7-11)

”8 Yes, everything else is worthless when compared with the infinite value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have discarded everything else, counting it all as garbage, so that I could gain Christ 9 and become one with him. I no longer count on my own righteousness through obeying the law; rather, I become righteous through faith in Christ.[c] For God’s way of making us right with himself depends on faith.” (Phillipians 3:8-10). 

[Fidei Defensor]

6 minutes ago, Cletus said:

 those that preach this and push for this unity are false teachers.  do some research and see.

unity and simply building friendships are as much night and day as the message in the bible and what these false teachers say when the preach. 

i say again... do not be lured into this deception.

I have done my homework and there are many kinds of ecumenism: 

“Ecumenism refers to efforts by Christians of different church traditions to develop closer relationships and better understandings.

The term is also often used to refer to efforts towards the visible and organic unity of different Christian churches in some form.

The terms ecumenism and ecumenical come from the Greek οἰκουμένη (oikoumene), which means "the whole inhabited world", and was historically used with specific reference to the Roman Empire.[2] The ecumenical vision comprises both the search for the visible unity of the Church (Ephesians 4:3) and the "whole inhabited earth" (Matthew 24:14) as the concern of all Christians.

In Christianity the qualification ecumenical is originally (and still) used in terms such as "ecumenical council" and "Ecumenical Patriarch" in the meaning of pertaining to the totality of the larger Church (such as the Catholic Church or the Orthodox Church) rather than being restricted to one of its constituent local churches or dioceses. Used in this original sense, the term carries no connotation of re-uniting the historically separated Christian denominations, but presumes a unity of local congregations in a worldwide communion.

Historically, the word was originally used in the context of large ecumenical councils that were organized under the auspices of Roman Emperors to clarify matters of Christian theology and doctrine. These "Ecumenical Councils" brought together bishops from around the inhabited world (such as, οἰκουμένη) as they knew it at the time. There were a total of seven ecumenical councils accepted by both Eastern Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism held before the Great Schism. Thus, the modern meaning of the world ecumenical and ecumenism derives from this pre-modern sense of Christian unity, and the impulse to recreate this unity again.

There are a variety of different expectations of what that Christian unity looks like, how it is brought about, what ecumenical methods ought to be engaged, and what both short- and long-term objectives of the ecumenical movement should be. Ecumenism and nondenominational or postdenominational movements are not necessarily the same thing. While some of these can be ecumenical in intent, normally nondenominationalism seeks no common organizing principle nor works toward the unity of Christians." (Wikipedia)

[Fidei Defensor]

12 minutes ago, Yowm said:

I would  add what Jesus said prefacing the passage you quoted...

Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world. (John 17:17-18)
 

This is the point where those who push for unity will sacrifice truth for the sake of unity. A Holy Hug does not comprise unity, it must be around agreement in God's Word, i.e. doctrine.

Indeed the Unitas must be in Spirit and Truth. However, Jesus does say to not hinder those who speak in His name, “John said to Jesus, "Teacher, we saw someone using your name to cast out demons, but we told him to stop because he wasn't in our group. Do not stop him," Jesus said. "For no one who does a miracle in my name can in the next moment say anything bad about me.For whoever is not against us is for us.” (Mark 9:38-40). 

[Small Fish]

10 hours ago, Fidei Defensor said:

Here is what I feel people arn’t hearing me. Unity must come from the Lord, but we can begin His work by building friendships and understanding with one another (though not agreeing on everything). If we respond to those we don’t agree with with words that their church and Way is heretical and deceived then unity is dead in water; would you like someone saying your Solae Scriptura and Spirit Filled way is heretical or call you “deceived” for using gifts of the spirit or shortsighted for trusting only Scripture? No, it would be insulting wouldn’t it?, it would shatter all hope of you having any friendship with a person who would say such cruel and unprovoked words, and yet should we be doing the same to them? Should we call others in Christ’s Church whom we don’t agree with names and labels when we can’t tolerate such treatment ourselves? 

“For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you” (Matthew 7:2)

The problem is not that we don't hear you. The problem is that we don't agree with you.

God has a provided way. And by the Word of God we are proving that denominations are not it.

Christ the Living Word Who shed His Blood is the provided way.

God said,"when I see the Blood, I'll pass". God wants to see us filled with the Holy Ghost.

Denominations work directly against that by putting man's laws, ideas, teachings, traditions ets. above what Scripture teaches us. Literary making the Word of God of none affect to the people and causing people to put their trust into a denomination rather than the Word of God. Denomination becomes a substitute. I see it time and time again.

Salvation comes by God above man. God's rightfull place. Man obeying God directly, like Israel as a nation following the Pillar of Fire out of Egypt and into the promised land.

Denominations are like political parties, man over man with their handbooks and traditions refusing the leading of the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit is what God gave man, denominations is what man gave man.

Edited August 30, 2018 by Small Fish

[Marilyn C]

15 hours ago, Fidei Defensor said:

Humbly, I beg to differ. 

Min those organizations are devout Christians of every denomination. They love Christ but have chosen which church they best learn and thrive in. In China there are many Christians in house churches of different denoms being forced right now by the govt. to apostasize (fall away) and yet they stand. In North Korea there of brothers in concentration camps, 300,000 souls who are suffering because they believe in Jesus Christ  and they come from different denoms. In Iran a million Muslims got saved and are part of different denoms. 

The denominations are divisions, but most of the time it’s due to preference in worship, how often communion is taken, the sermon and ultimately if the person feels their faith edified there. I argue it is possible to have unity without leaving your denomination; it has happened before. The Charismatic Catholics proved this by the fact that they remain Catholic but Spirit Filled and have abandoned Roman Catholic teaching on Mary and the saints.  

Hi Fidei Defensor,

Actually bro, your reply confirms what I said - that Denominations and people are two different things.

Denominations are rigid structures - a building, rules, legislations, & will pass away.

People, believers - are a spiritual organism set together by the Holy Spirit and built up and matured by the Spirit in the Lord, & they are eternal.

Go to any denomination and the structure will be rigid however the people will all hold different views as you well said. The Holy Spirit flows right over and through man`s rigid structures and brings truth to people. Those you mentioned received the infilling of the Holy Spirit, and in their daily lives they have the wonderful joy of learning to walk by the Spirit and become mature in the Lord. They may still go to a public meeting, but a meeting never changed anyone, never saved anyone, only the Lord does and that is not reliant on a meeting.

So, I believe it does not matter what rigid structure of man you want to go to for a public meeting, it is ONLY by the HOLY SPIRIT that believers wherever they are will come to maturity in the Lord, the unity of the faith.

regards, Marilyn.

 

[seeking the lost]

20 hours ago, Heleadethme said:

Can't really tell if you understood my post or not.....or whether you agreed with it or not.....or whether you somehow took it amiss when I had meant it kindly.....and/or whether you are diverting attention away from the point of my post, which is a very important one.

Yes, I consider that denominational names are contrivances of the flesh.......as is the concept of canonizing.  Actually, it really does seem you are not "hearing" what the scriptures are saying about the simplicity of Christ?

Does this mean you believe we should stop bringing correction and the word of God to bear ?  Stop pointing to Jesus and the things He taught, and the apostles?  Just let everyone go their own way and don't disturb anyone as they sleepwalk off cliffs, and don't try to remind and show what scripture teaches and what THE Way is?  That's the very reason we are in the falling away now.......because political correctness has invaded the churches the way it is trying to invade this forum as we speak.

It is the role of the Holy Spirit to guide us into all truth.  All that are born again not of the flesh but of the Spirit will know the truth.  

John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;

10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;

11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

 

I do believe that we should contend earnestly for the faith that was once delivered.  Jude indicates that need.

Jude 1:1 Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called:

2 Mercy unto you, and peace, and love, be multiplied.

3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.

The primary concern that each should have is their own position in the truth.  The secondary is to help others by teaching them to observe all things commanded.  To go after a group with your personal bias is different than that.

Yes do not be moved from the simplicity of Christ. 

[Fidei Defensor]

6 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Fidei Defensor,

Actually bro, your reply confirms what I said - that Denominations and people are two different things.

Denominations are rigid structures - a building, rules, legislations, & will pass away.

People, believers - are a spiritual organism set together by the Holy Spirit and built up and matured by the Spirit in the Lord, & they are eternal.

Go to any denomination and the structure will be rigid however the people will all hold different views as you well said. The Holy Spirit flows right over and through man`s rigid structures and brings truth to people. Those you mentioned received the infilling of the Holy Spirit, and in their daily lives they have the wonderful joy of learning to walk by the Spirit and become mature in the Lord. They may still go to a public meeting, but a meeting never changed anyone, never saved anyone, only the Lord does and that is not reliant on a meeting.

So, I believe it does not matter what rigid structure of man you want to go to for a public meeting, it is ONLY by the HOLY SPIRIT that believers wherever they are will come to maturity in the Lord, the unity of the faith.

regards, Marilyn.

 

I have seen what you describe, and all denominations where present and they instead all called themselves Christians and walked in Holy Spirit. 

While there is structure to denominations, I do believe denominations are like many different kinds of learning: oral, pictorial, visual, sight, experiential, and etc. There are those who are edified by seeing images, others by charisma and feeling God, others by stating the Scriptures in depth, others through evangelism and missions, and etc.