Ecumenism: "Why Can't We Be Friends?"

[Fidei Defensor]

Ecumenism Theologian who belined right theology not politics, was key to unity: 

 

“Thomas Forsyth Torrance

Ecumenical Theologian

DANIEL J. CAMERON

 

“If we ourselves are in Christ we cannot fail to discern His Body in others whom he is pleased to call His own and whose Sacrament He is pleased to honour with His own real Presence and Spirit.”

Thomas Torrance recognized the true nature of the church as existing only in Christ and spent his life seeking the theological renewal of the church. In this process, his life and work has become known as one of the largest theological dynasties Great Britain has ever produced.

Missionary Kid to Pastor

From birth, he was destined for full-time ministry. He was born in Chengdu, China, on August 30, 1913, the second of six children to Rev. Thomas Torrance and Annie Elizabeth Torrance, who were missionaries with China Inland Mission. His parents began his theological training at a young age, and he fondly recalls his parents as his “first and best teachers in theology.” He went on to attend the universities of Edinburgh, Basel, and Oxford studying under theologians such as H. R. Mackintosh, Daniel Lamont, and Karl Barth. Mackintosh instilled in him the importance of theology as the foundation and center of every aspect of the Christian life, causing him to rethink his desire to be a missionary and instead enter into academic theology. Mackintosh’s influence led Torrance to see theology as a way to participate in the Great Commission and thus, mission work, by serving the church.

After serving a year as a professor at Auburn Theological Seminary in New York from 1938 to 1939, he returned to Scotland, accepting a position as the pastor of the parish in Alyth. During these first three years as a pastor, he pointed out that the church has a tendency to conform to human culture and civilization and thus lose its distinctive identity and mission. This resulted in many lectures and articles such as “The Place and Function of the Church in the World” which argues for the recovery of the church’s identity in Christ.

From 1943 to 1945 Torrance took a leave from his parish in Alyth to be a chaplain in the military during World War II. While he was never fighting combatants himself, war and death surrounded him. At one point his platoon came under heavy German fire and only he and one other soldier made it out alive. These experiences and questions from dying soldiers, such as “Is God really like Jesus?” made him realize the importance of the centrality of Jesus in Christian theology. He became convinced that it is this facet of Christian theology that is the driving force behind the recovery of the church’s identity and mission.

 

After the war ended, he returned to his church in Alyth where he continued working for the theological renewal of the church’s identity and mission. During this period of his pastorship, he founded the Scottish Church Theology Society in 1945 and then the Scottish Journal of Theology in 1948 to aid in that process. In 1946, he rekindled a relationship with Margaret Spear whom he had met at the University of Edinburgh. They were married in October 1946 and had three children: Thomas Spear, Iain Richard, and Alison Meta Elizabeth. The growth of the Torrance family made the stipend from his church in Alyth too small to care for his family. He was offered a position at Beechgrove Church in Aberdeen, and by November 1947 he accepted the position and the Torrance family moved to Aberdeen. As he continued to seek the recovery of the church’s identity, he realized that he did not have the time to research and write as he would have liked while at Beechgrove Church. So Torrance used his sermons as avenues for theology, producing When Christ Comes and Comes Again in 1957, his attempt to “bring the preaching of the Church to the bar of the Word of God.”

Pastor to Professor

T. F. Torrance’s long-term desire was to have an academic career in service of the church. In 1950, this began to be a reality when he accepted the position of chair of church history at the University of Edinburgh and came to full fruition when he became the chair of dogmatics by 1952. He used this position to make significant contributions to the movement to recover church unity that was taking place during this time. While interest in ecumenism emerged from the Edinburgh Missionary Movement in 1910, it gained traction after World War II ended when the World Council of Churches was formed in 1948. Torrance was appointed to represent the Church of Scotland in these conversations, but his main contribution did not lie so much in his participation in these conversations but his research into the foundational theological principles that made these conversations possible.

His work for the World Council of Churches, which met in Amsterdam in 1948, and the Third World Council on Faith and Order, which met in Lund in 1952, resulted in many articles such as “The Atonement and the Oneness of the Church” and “Where Do We Go From Lund.” It also resulted in the publication of works such as Conflict and Agreement in the Church, Vol. I & II. In response to the disunity that was present in the church at the time, he wrote his volume Royal Priesthood, which argued for a biblical understanding of church leadership.

 

For Torrance, disunity came from misunderstood identity. The church had lost its identity and was therefore “vulnerable to corruption and distortion through an improper immersion in the world—and immersion which could compromise its God-given mission.” He found that the church was placing its identity in the way that it did ministry, in its method for doing ministry. He argued that these “old ways and habits” must be set aside in order to recover the true identity of the church. If the identity of the church remains in its practice and not in its very nature as the body of Christ, then the church will remain in disunity. But if the church can recover its true identity as the body of Christ, then church unity is possible.

While he addressed many issues throughout his time as a professor, his main focus was the church and ministry, always arguing that proper church practice comes from a proper understanding of identity. He argues in Conflict and Agreement in the Church that the “great shame and disorder of the church is that she has collaborated with the disorder of the world and clothed herself with so many of its forms and fashions that so often she is too committed to the world and too compromised with it to be able to deliver the revolutionary Word of the Gospel with conviction and power.” To fix this issue, the church must be “prepared as part of her dying and rising with Christ to mortify the deeds of the body, to lay her worldly form upon the altar of the cross and in shedding of old ways and habits, in the refashioning of her order, to release the Gospel effectively to the world of today.”

During the 1950s and ’60s, his involvement in church unity primarily focused on conversations between the Church of England and the Church of Scotland and different aspects of the World Council of Churches. Thus, he was present at the Faith and Order conference at Lund in 1952, the Faith and Order Commission from 1952 to 1962, and the World Council of Churches in Evanston, Illinois, in 1954. He also served on the Reformed–Roman Catholic Study Commission on the Eucharist in the Netherlands.

Because of his heavy involvement in ecumenism, it is no wonder that he was invited to become the moderator of the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland in 1976, a one year position. Torrance did not squander this opportunity, but used this position to influence the church toward “serious theological reflection.” Convinced that pastoral ministry not informed by theology will inevitably lead to the church clothing itself in worldly ways, Torrance pushed the Church of Scotland to understand that theology was meant to enable and inform biblical pastoral ministry.

Retirement

Torrance retired from his position as University of Edinburgh’s chair of dogmatics in 1979, which is arguably when his most important work with the church began. A meeting concerning the Trinity with the ecumenical patriarch and other leaders of the Greek Orthodox Church on behalf of the World Alliance of Reformed Churches led to a series of meetings between 1979 and 1983 in Istanbul, Turkey. By 1986–1990, these meetings had expanded to Geneva, Leuenburg, and Minsk. These meetings resulted in the document “Agreed Statement on the Holy Trinity.” Torrance narrated the dialogue process and sought to popularize this statement in his work Theological Dialogue Between Orthodox and Reformed Churches, vol I & II.

According to theologian Alister McGrath, Torrance’s work in Christian theology and church unity not only “established Edinburgh as one of the most significant centres in the world for the study of Christian theology,” it also earned him the prestigious Templeton Prize for Progress in Religion in 1978. While retirement usually means the end of a career, for Torrance this was not the case. While he published 320 works during his time at the University of Edinburgh, he added over 260 additional publications after he retired, including two of his most significant: The Trinitarian Faith (1988) and The Christian Doctrine of God (1996). He passed away in Edinburgh in December 2007.

T. F. Torrance understood that Jesus loved the church so much that he died for it and, thus, the church must be fought for. Torrance used his position in the academy to do just that. He fought for the theological renewal of the church so that its witness in the world might not be tarnished, and through that witness, the world would come to know God in Christ.” (Church History, Christianity Today)

Daniel J. Cameron is adjunct professor of theology at the Moody Bible Institute in Chicago, Illinois. His most recent book is entitled Flesh and Blood: A Dogmatic Sketch Concerning the Fallen Nature View of Christ’s Human Nature (Wipf and Stock).

[Global Mission]

1 hour ago, Fidei Defensor said:

Ecumenism Theologian who belined right theology not politics, was key to unity: 

 

“Thomas Forsyth Torrance

Ecumenical Theologian

DANIEL J. CAMERON

 

“If we ourselves are in Christ we cannot fail to discern His Body in others whom he is pleased to call His own and whose Sacrament He is pleased to honour with His own real Presence and Spirit.”

Thomas Torrance recognized the true nature of the church as existing only in Christ and spent his life seeking the theological renewal of the church. In this process, his life and work has become known as one of the largest theological dynasties Great Britain has ever produced.

Missionary Kid to Pastor

From birth, he was destined for full-time ministry. He was born in Chengdu, China, on August 30, 1913, the second of six children to Rev. Thomas Torrance and Annie Elizabeth Torrance, who were missionaries with China Inland Mission. His parents began his theological training at a young age, and he fondly recalls his parents as his “first and best teachers in theology.” He went on to attend the universities of Edinburgh, Basel, and Oxford studying under theologians such as H. R. Mackintosh, Daniel Lamont, and Karl Barth. Mackintosh instilled in him the importance of theology as the foundation and center of every aspect of the Christian life, causing him to rethink his desire to be a missionary and instead enter into academic theology. Mackintosh’s influence led Torrance to see theology as a way to participate in the Great Commission and thus, mission work, by serving the church.

After serving a year as a professor at Auburn Theological Seminary in New York from 1938 to 1939, he returned to Scotland, accepting a position as the pastor of the parish in Alyth. During these first three years as a pastor, he pointed out that the church has a tendency to conform to human culture and civilization and thus lose its distinctive identity and mission. This resulted in many lectures and articles such as “The Place and Function of the Church in the World” which argues for the recovery of the church’s identity in Christ.

From 1943 to 1945 Torrance took a leave from his parish in Alyth to be a chaplain in the military during World War II. While he was never fighting combatants himself, war and death surrounded him. At one point his platoon came under heavy German fire and only he and one other soldier made it out alive. These experiences and questions from dying soldiers, such as “Is God really like Jesus?” made him realize the importance of the centrality of Jesus in Christian theology. He became convinced that it is this facet of Christian theology that is the driving force behind the recovery of the church’s identity and mission.

 

After the war ended, he returned to his church in Alyth where he continued working for the theological renewal of the church’s identity and mission. During this period of his pastorship, he founded the Scottish Church Theology Society in 1945 and then the Scottish Journal of Theology in 1948 to aid in that process. In 1946, he rekindled a relationship with Margaret Spear whom he had met at the University of Edinburgh. They were married in October 1946 and had three children: Thomas Spear, Iain Richard, and Alison Meta Elizabeth. The growth of the Torrance family made the stipend from his church in Alyth too small to care for his family. He was offered a position at Beechgrove Church in Aberdeen, and by November 1947 he accepted the position and the Torrance family moved to Aberdeen. As he continued to seek the recovery of the church’s identity, he realized that he did not have the time to research and write as he would have liked while at Beechgrove Church. So Torrance used his sermons as avenues for theology, producing When Christ Comes and Comes Again in 1957, his attempt to “bring the preaching of the Church to the bar of the Word of God.”

Pastor to Professor

T. F. Torrance’s long-term desire was to have an academic career in service of the church. In 1950, this began to be a reality when he accepted the position of chair of church history at the University of Edinburgh and came to full fruition when he became the chair of dogmatics by 1952. He used this position to make significant contributions to the movement to recover church unity that was taking place during this time. While interest in ecumenism emerged from the Edinburgh Missionary Movement in 1910, it gained traction after World War II ended when the World Council of Churches was formed in 1948. Torrance was appointed to represent the Church of Scotland in these conversations, but his main contribution did not lie so much in his participation in these conversations but his research into the foundational theological principles that made these conversations possible.

His work for the World Council of Churches, which met in Amsterdam in 1948, and the Third World Council on Faith and Order, which met in Lund in 1952, resulted in many articles such as “The Atonement and the Oneness of the Church” and “Where Do We Go From Lund.” It also resulted in the publication of works such as Conflict and Agreement in the Church, Vol. I & II. In response to the disunity that was present in the church at the time, he wrote his volume Royal Priesthood, which argued for a biblical understanding of church leadership.

 

For Torrance, disunity came from misunderstood identity. The church had lost its identity and was therefore “vulnerable to corruption and distortion through an improper immersion in the world—and immersion which could compromise its God-given mission.” He found that the church was placing its identity in the way that it did ministry, in its method for doing ministry. He argued that these “old ways and habits” must be set aside in order to recover the true identity of the church. If the identity of the church remains in its practice and not in its very nature as the body of Christ, then the church will remain in disunity. But if the church can recover its true identity as the body of Christ, then church unity is possible.

While he addressed many issues throughout his time as a professor, his main focus was the church and ministry, always arguing that proper church practice comes from a proper understanding of identity. He argues in Conflict and Agreement in the Church that the “great shame and disorder of the church is that she has collaborated with the disorder of the world and clothed herself with so many of its forms and fashions that so often she is too committed to the world and too compromised with it to be able to deliver the revolutionary Word of the Gospel with conviction and power.” To fix this issue, the church must be “prepared as part of her dying and rising with Christ to mortify the deeds of the body, to lay her worldly form upon the altar of the cross and in shedding of old ways and habits, in the refashioning of her order, to release the Gospel effectively to the world of today.”

During the 1950s and ’60s, his involvement in church unity primarily focused on conversations between the Church of England and the Church of Scotland and different aspects of the World Council of Churches. Thus, he was present at the Faith and Order conference at Lund in 1952, the Faith and Order Commission from 1952 to 1962, and the World Council of Churches in Evanston, Illinois, in 1954. He also served on the Reformed–Roman Catholic Study Commission on the Eucharist in the Netherlands.

Because of his heavy involvement in ecumenism, it is no wonder that he was invited to become the moderator of the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland in 1976, a one year position. Torrance did not squander this opportunity, but used this position to influence the church toward “serious theological reflection.” Convinced that pastoral ministry not informed by theology will inevitably lead to the church clothing itself in worldly ways, Torrance pushed the Church of Scotland to understand that theology was meant to enable and inform biblical pastoral ministry.

Retirement

Torrance retired from his position as University of Edinburgh’s chair of dogmatics in 1979, which is arguably when his most important work with the church began. A meeting concerning the Trinity with the ecumenical patriarch and other leaders of the Greek Orthodox Church on behalf of the World Alliance of Reformed Churches led to a series of meetings between 1979 and 1983 in Istanbul, Turkey. By 1986–1990, these meetings had expanded to Geneva, Leuenburg, and Minsk. These meetings resulted in the document “Agreed Statement on the Holy Trinity.” Torrance narrated the dialogue process and sought to popularize this statement in his work Theological Dialogue Between Orthodox and Reformed Churches, vol I & II.

According to theologian Alister McGrath, Torrance’s work in Christian theology and church unity not only “established Edinburgh as one of the most significant centres in the world for the study of Christian theology,” it also earned him the prestigious Templeton Prize for Progress in Religion in 1978. While retirement usually means the end of a career, for Torrance this was not the case. While he published 320 works during his time at the University of Edinburgh, he added over 260 additional publications after he retired, including two of his most significant: The Trinitarian Faith (1988) and The Christian Doctrine of God (1996). He passed away in Edinburgh in December 2007.

T. F. Torrance understood that Jesus loved the church so much that he died for it and, thus, the church must be fought for. Torrance used his position in the academy to do just that. He fought for the theological renewal of the church so that its witness in the world might not be tarnished, and through that witness, the world would come to know God in Christ.” (Church History, Christianity Today)

Daniel J. Cameron is adjunct professor of theology at the Moody Bible Institute in Chicago, Illinois. His most recent book is entitled Flesh and Blood: A Dogmatic Sketch Concerning the Fallen Nature View of Christ’s Human Nature (Wipf and Stock).

Alister McGrath ( mentioned in the article ) 

- Author of "Christianity's dangerous idea. - Protestant Revolution"

-  About "History of Reformation" - from 16th to 21st century.

- I enjoyed reading.. even though I did not agree with some things in the book.

-----

You wrote, "...right theology, not politics". - ( first line )

- It is inevitable that politics get involved.

----

When people hear the word "Ecumenism", they think of "modern ecumenical movement".

- I assume you knew.

As you mentioned, - introduction to this topic 

origin of "Ecumenism" goes back to early Christian History.

 

 

 

[Fidei Defensor]

3 minutes ago, Global Mission said:

Alister McGrath ( mentioned in the article ) 

- Author of "Christianity's dangerous idea. - Protestant Revolution"

-  About "History of Reformation" - from 16th to 21st century.

- I enjoyed reading.. even though I did not agree with some things in the book.

-----

You wrote, "...right theology, not politics". - ( first line )

- It is inevitable that politics get involved.

----

When people hear the word "Ecumenism", they think of "modern ecumenical movement".

- I assume you knew.

As you mentioned, - introduction to this topic 

origin of "Ecumenism" goes back to early Christian History.

 

 

 

I greatly appreciate you giving ecumenism  distinctions. There is indeed a very corrupt ecumenism that seeks to unify outside of right theology and sound doctrine; okieume politica. 

Then there is the Ecumenical councils that actually were the opposite of the modern political movement. At these councils as you already know they defended sound doctrine against Nestorianism, Arianism, and Origenism. 

Ecumenism/Ecumenicalism has had many different sects with vastly different goals on unity. When I started this topic I was surprised how the modern RCC-World Council -Emergent-Liberal (not in political sense but spiritually) movement was what people responded to, I however, advocate the ecumenical councils you mentioned and an ecumenism that Jesus desired (John 17:20-23) along with unity of at the most rudimentary level: friendship and understanding of where each of us is coming from. 

 

 

[Heleadethme]

On 8/30/2018 at 11:22 AM, seeking the lost said:

To go after a group with your personal bias is different than that.

 

Edited September 2, 2018 by Heleadethme

[Joshua-777]

On 5/10/2017 at 8:38 PM, Fidei Defensor said:

Ecumenism is about uniting the Body of Christ which. We do not pretend everyone will agree on every iota of doctrine and ideology. Its about creating dialogues, and respecting differences of opinion.

This is to be place for all Christians from their various denominations and churches. It is to be a place, a forum if you will for everyone to come and share. So please, I must respectfully ask you to refrain from calling Ecumenism not Gospel. It's goal is to get Christians of different denominations together, to share and listen. Its not the Apologetics thread.

We may have different understandings, interpretations, and traditions, but it is only through Christ we are saved, and only in Him we can find unity. in Him we all have the same Spirit and the same Father.

^{John 17:20} “I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word; ²¹ that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me

^{1 Corinthians 12:12} For as the body is one and has many members, but all the members of that one body, being many, are one body, so also is Christ. ¹³ For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit. ¹⁴ For in fact the body is not one member but many

^{Ephesians 4:2} with all lowliness and gentleness, with longsuffering, bearing with one another in love, ³ endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. ⁴ There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; ⁵ one Lord, one faith, one baptism; ⁶ one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Edited September 2, 2018 by Joshua-777

[Heleadethme]

On 8/30/2018 at 11:22 AM, seeking the lost said:

It is the role of the Holy Spirit to guide us into all truth.  All that are born again not of the flesh but of the Spirit will know the truth.  

John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;

10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;

11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

 

I do believe that we should contend earnestly for the faith that was once delivered.  Jude indicates that need.

Jude 1:1 Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called:

2 Mercy unto you, and peace, and love, be multiplied.

3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.

The primary concern that each should have is their own position in the truth.  The secondary is to help others by teaching them to observe all things commanded.  To go after a group with your personal bias is different than that.

Yes do not be moved from the simplicity of Christ. 

It's very easy to get the wrong impression on forums.....thinking that because someone is participating in a thread, that the subject they are discussing is the whole focus of their Christian life.  If someone truly believes that the things I and others are saying are merely reflecting personal bias, then I would worry much more about what that reveals about him/her.  I just know that we are to speak the truth to our neighbour, and the Holy Spirit is the one who gives the increase from those seeds of truth.  You see, a huge part of the battle is just in getting souls free to speak the truth in love and simplicity.  Clearly the Lord wouldn't have us all sit around together with duct tape over our mouths......especially in such perilous times.  We are to preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.  And watchmen are to report what they see and warn the brethren, that is their purpose.

May the Lord give us all eyes to see........any church or group or denomination naming Christ which claims to be the universal church of Christ, and teaches that outside the walls of their particular church or group there is no salvation......(and I'm afraid Catholicism is  by far the largest and most dangerous one, and that’s why she gets so much attention)......then that is very antichrist because it is a direct man-made counterfeit to the true church of Christ which has no walls built by hands of flesh and consists of true believers out of all groups/churches or of no group/church at all.  It exists to steal souls from the true body of Christ.   Here in scripture is a peek at her, if we read prayerfully and carefully:

Zec 5:1-4

Then I turned, and lifted up mine eyes, and looked, and behold a flying roll.

And he said unto me, What seest thou? And I answered, I see a flying roll; the length thereof is twenty cubits, and the breadth thereof ten cubits.  (scroll….words, lying words, counterfeit to the word of God)

Then said he unto me, This is the curse that goeth forth over the face of the whole earth: for every one that stealeth shall be cut off as on this side according to it; and every one that sweareth shall be cut off as on that side according to it.  (a picture of the strong delusion)

I will bring it forth, saith the LORD of hosts, and it shall enter into the house of the thief, and into the house of him that sweareth falsely by my name: and it shall remain in the midst of his house, and shall consume it with the timber thereof and the stones thereof.

 

Zec 5:5

Then the angel that talked with me went forth, and said unto me, Lift up now thine eyes, and see what is this that goeth forth.

And I said, What is it? And he said, This is an ephah that goeth forth. He said moreover, This is their resemblance through all the earth.

And, behold, there was lifted up a talent of lead: and this is a woman that sitteth in the midst of the ephah.

And he said, This is wickedness. (the mother of harlots, mystery Babylon) And he cast it into the midst of the ephah; and he cast the weight of lead upon the mouth thereof. (it weighs the people down and makes captives of souls instead of freeing them)

Then lifted I up mine eyes, and looked, and, behold, there came out two women, and the wind was in their wings; for they had wings like the wings of a stork: and they lifted up the ephah between the earth and the heaven.  (needed huge wings of storks to lift it because it is a HEAVY spirit)

Then said I to the angel that talked with me, Whither do these bear the ephah?

And he said unto me, To build it an house in the land of Shinar: and it shall be established, and set there upon her own base. (wrong foundation, her own foundation rather than Christ the cornerstone)

 

Gen 10:8-10

And Cush begat Nimrod: he began to be a mighty one in the earth.

He was a mighty hunter before the LORD: wherefore it is said, Even as Nimrod the mighty hunter before the LORD.

And the beginning of his kingdom was Babel, and Erech, and Accad, and Calneh, in the land of Shinar.

 

Gen 11:1-4

And the whole earth was of one language, and of one speech.

And it came to pass, as they journeyed from the east, that they found a plain in the land of Shinar; and they dwelt there.

And they said one to another, Go to, let us make brick, and burn them throughly. And they had brick for stone, and slime had they for morter.

And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth.

 

Dan 1:1-2

In the third year of the reign of Jehoiakim king of Judah came Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon unto Jerusalem, and besieged it. (when you see Jerusalem/church-in-type surrounded/beseiged by armies, about to be captured….. flee it!)

And the Lord gave Jehoiakim king of Judah into his hand, with part of the vessels of the house of God: which he carried into the land of Shinar to the house of his god; and he brought the vessels into the treasure house of his god.

 

 

Edited September 2, 2018 by Heleadethme

[Heleadethme]

And now what are these captive vessels of the Lord instructed to do when Babylon is conquered and falls into the hands of another….they are instructed to use the opportunity to flee Babylon and return to Jerusalem as it were (true church and body of Christ) in order to rebuild the fallen temple on its proper foundation:

Isa 52:10-12

The LORD hath made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God.

Depart ye, depart ye, go ye out from thence, touch no unclean thing; go ye out of the midst of her; be ye clean, that bear the vessels of the LORD.

For ye shall not go out with haste, nor go by flight: for the LORD will go before you; and the God of Israel will be your rereward.

[Fidei Defensor]

5 hours ago, Joshua-777 said:

We may have different understandings, interpretations, and traditions, but it is only through Christ we are saved, and only in Him we can find unity. in Him we all have the same Spirit and the same Father.

^{John 17:20} “I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word; ²¹ that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me

^{1 Corinthians 12:12} For as the body is one and has many members, but all the members of that one body, being many, are one body, so also is Christ. ¹³ For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit. ¹⁴ For in fact the body is not one member but many

^{Ephesians 4:2} with all lowliness and gentleness, with longsuffering, bearing with one another in love, ³ endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. ⁴ There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; ⁵ one Lord, one faith, one baptism; ⁶ one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Indeed Christology and Soteriology cannot be compromised. Nor the doctrine of the Trinity. The differences I reference pertain to personal tastes in worship, liturgy or no-liturgy, sermons, communion, and etc. 

[Fidei Defensor]

On 8/31/2018 at 12:55 AM, Christine said:

The Church which is the Body of Christ, is united in Christ.  There is no division there.  Each individual is known of God, if not to each other. Their fellowship is with the Father and with the Son by the Spirit, and with each other as His opportunity affords.  The unity that they 'keep' is that which the Holy Spirit has already instituted, which is seven-fold and found in Ephesians chapter four. 

There are no buildings, no creeds, just a oneness in Christ which unites them, in spirit.  When their lives cross, the love of Christ is manifest, and their mutual joy in Him edifies and builds them up.  Their  testimony is of being 'complete' in Christ, 'accepted in the beloved', and of having been 'made meet for the inheritance of the saints in light'.  

They carry on with the lives that they have, living for God's glory, testifying to the power of God which keeps them in His love. Following the ministry that has been allotted to them, in whatever field, even if it is simply to be a wife and mother, or a husband, father and bread winner.  Living for the glory of God where they are.  

All is of Christ and for Christ. Ecumenialism? What's that? Did God institute it? Then it doesn't exist.

In Christ Jesus

Chris

 

God did institute ecumenism in Himself and through Himself:

“do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word; 21 that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.22 The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one; 23 I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, so that the world may know that You sent Me, and loved them, even as You have loved Me.” (John 17:20-23)

[Fidei Defensor]

“The relevance of this today should be obvious. The differences between us, as twentieth-century Christians, all too often reflect cultural, philosophical and tribal divides, rather than anything that should keep us apart from full and glad eucharistic fellowship. I believe the church should recognize, as a matter of biblical and Christian obedience, that it is time to put the horse back before the cart, and that we are far, far more likely to reach doctrinal agreement between our different churches if we do so within the context of that common meal which belongs equally to us all because it is the meal of the Lord whom we all worship. Intercommunion, in other words, is not something we should regard as the prize to be gained at the end of the ecumenical road; it is the very paving of the road itself. If we wonder why we haven't been travelling very fast down the road of late, maybe it's because, without the proper paving, we've got stuck in the mud.”

N.T. Wright, For All God's Worth: True Worship and the Calling of the Church