The Tribulation?

[Dennis1209]

With a pre tribulation Rapture viewpoint, I could use some insight on my question?

In Revelation 14:4, we have the "firstfruits" of the tribulation, they are the 144,000 Jewish witnesses sealed by God. I take that to mean, they are the first peoples to be saved during the tribulation, thus firstfruits.

The timing of these 144,000 firstfruits, seems to be around mid-tribulation but that's open to speculation and debate. One thing seems very apparent though, the sealing of these 144,000 Saints are well after the pre-tribulation Rapture, so there seems to be a gap of time from the Rapture to the arrival of these Saints.

With the above in mind and a pre-tribulation viewpoint of scripture, here's the scenario and question.

You have millions and millions of pretend Christians, those that fully know the Gospel but didn't accept Jesus Christ as their personal Savior, to include many pastors and clergy. Those people are at church, out shopping, traveling with their saved spouse / family or whatever. BANG-POW-BOOM, all of a sudden their saved loved ones disappear right before their very eyes. These spouses and loved ones are left behind, knowing the Gospel and scripture, but they never committed to the Lord and/or only though they were saved. 

The natural reaction would seem to be to instantly drop to one's knees in shock, and accept the Lord Jesus Christ as your personal Savior right then and there? If I'm interpreting Revelation 14:4 hermeneutically correct, no one can be saved until at least the point of the 144,000 Jewish Saints. What am I missing or not seeing here?

[OneLight]

The 1444,000 will preach in Israel and are for the Jewish people as they come out of the 12 tribes.

As for who can be saved, God will not be done with His creation ever.  I am not of the belief of Pre-Trib, so I will leave my answer as is.

[missmuffet]

33 minutes ago, Dennis1209 said:

With a pre tribulation Rapture viewpoint, I could use some insight on my question?

In Revelation 14:4, we have the "firstfruits" of the tribulation, they are the 144,000 Jewish witnesses sealed by God. I take that to mean, they are the first peoples to be saved during the tribulation, thus firstfruits.

The timing of these 144,000 firstfruits, seems to be around mid-tribulation but that's open to speculation and debate. One thing seems very apparent though, the sealing of these 144,000 Saints are well after the pre-tribulation Rapture, so there seems to be a gap of time from the Rapture to the arrival of these Saints.

With the above in mind and a pre-tribulation viewpoint of scripture, here's the scenario and question.

You have millions and millions of pretend Christians, those that fully know the Gospel but didn't accept Jesus Christ as their personal Savior, to include many pastors and clergy. Those people are at church, out shopping, traveling with their saved spouse / family or whatever. BANG-POW-BOOM, all of a sudden their saved loved ones disappear right before their very eyes. These spouses and loved ones are left behind, knowing the Gospel and scripture, but they never committed to the Lord and/or only though they were saved. 

The natural reaction would seem to be to instantly drop to one's knees in shock, and accept the Lord Jesus Christ as your personal Savior right then and there? If I'm interpreting Revelation 14:4 hermeneutically correct, no one can be saved until at least the point of the 144,000 Jewish Saints. What am I missing or not seeing here?

The 144,000 are the Jews that are sealed during the tribulation which means they have a special protection from God. They are the first fruits and are the 12 tribes or Israel.They are the only ones who will have a protective seal on them. Those who are not born again Christians will not go in the rapture of the Church. They will stay on earth. They will have an opportunity to come to Christ. Yes, it will include Pastors. The rapture will be instant. In the twinkling of the eye the Bible tells us. That is 1/6 billionth of a second. I believe that is the speed of light. It will be chaos for those left behind and all of the tragedies of the judgments that will come upon the earth. Also the persecution of the Antichrist. Some will come to Christ and many will not even up to the very end.There will be very few Christians who will survive the tribulation. Most will be killed and martyred as Christian. Horrible and tragic deaths. Many will be tortured and experience horrible deaths such as in the WW 2 holocaust except much, much worse.  The Bible tells us that God's wrath is not for the born again believer. He will protect those who are very committed and faithful to Him.He will take them out of this earth before the seven year tribulation. And that includes all of the children up to the age of accountability. That age is debatable but could be around 12 or 13.

[missmuffet]

The twelve tribes of Israel.

The twelve tribes of Israel came from the twelve sons of Israel. “Israel” is the name that God gave Jacob (Genesis 32:28). His twelve sons are Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Judah, Dan, Naphtali, Gad, Asher, Issachar, Zebulun, Joseph, and Benjamin (Genesis 35:23-26; Exodus 1:1–4; 1 Chronicles 2:1–2).

[OneLight]

33 minutes ago, missmuffet said:

The twelve tribes of Israel.

The twelve tribes of Israel came from the twelve sons of Israel. “Israel” is the name that God gave Jacob (Genesis 32:28). His twelve sons are Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Judah, Dan, Naphtali, Gad, Asher, Issachar, Zebulun, Joseph, and Benjamin (Genesis 35:23-26; Exodus 1:1–4; 1 Chronicles 2:1–2).

Dan is not mentioned in Revelation, Manasseh is listed instead.

 

 ^{And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed:}

^{of the tribe of Judah twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Reuben twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Gad twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Asher twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Naphtali twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Manasseh twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Simeon twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Levi twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Issachar twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Zebulun twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Benjamin twelve thousand were sealed.}

[missmuffet]

1 hour ago, OneLight said:

Dan is not mentioned in Revelation, Manasseh is listed instead.

 

 ^{And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed:}

^{of the tribe of Judah twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Reuben twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Gad twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Asher twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Naphtali twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Manasseh twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Simeon twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Levi twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Issachar twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Zebulun twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Benjamin twelve thousand were sealed.}

I remember someone mentioning that in another message board and I forgot why he is not mentioned.

[OneLight]

17 minutes ago, missmuffet said:

I remember someone mentioning that in another message board and I forgot why he is not mentioned.

He became an idol worshiper, which is why his son Manasseh is mentioned instead.

[Revelation Man]

2 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

You have millions and millions of pretend Christians, those that fully know the Gospel but didn't accept Jesus Christ as their personal Savior, to include many pastors and clergy. Those people are at church, out shopping, traveling with their saved spouse / family or whatever. BANG-POW-BOOM, all of a sudden their saved loved ones disappear right before their very eyes

For starters, no one disappears, we die and our corrupt bodies stay on earth. 1 Corinthians 15 bears this out. As for he 144,000 I think everyone else has answered that.

[missmuffet]

9 minutes ago, OneLight said:

He became an idol worshiper, which is why his son Manasseh is mentioned instead.

Thanks, I just finished Genesis I thought it was something like that.

[angels4u]

1 hour ago, missmuffet said:

I remember someone mentioning that in another message board and I forgot why he is not mentioned.

I remember it was George  in this forum  ,we did talk about it before and forgot what he said, maybe we can find it back...