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Post trib?


kenny2212

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4 hours ago, BobRyan said:

No Bible text says that.

No text says the great tribulation is 7 years. Or that Israel will be forced into a "peace and security" deal in the future.

I just named the text for you, but again you couldn't see before so I didn't know if you would see it now. I just stated the facts. I have done the Hard work for you on the other question, the only question is, do you want to understand. When I say thins, I am not just talking without understanding.

4 hours ago, BobRyan said:

No parable of Christ said that there will be a 7 year tribulation period.

Quote

Yes it does, he tells you about the the Jewish Bride, and the people he told it to,  the JEWS/His Disciples understood what he was saying because it was their Culture, you just have to study a little to get it. Its not going to hit you over the head, you have to fig it out. 

First, the Lord chose a people (Israel) that would be His bride, His wife. Several times in the Old Testament the Lord describes Israel as His wife. It all began when the Lord chose Abraham and promised him that his descendants would be a great and numerous people. But at Mount Sinai the chosen wife became adulterous and worshipped the Golden Calf. Time and again, through the prophets, the Lord called for Israel to return to Him.

Finally, the Lord told Israel,

"I am sought of [them that] asked not [for me]; I am found of [them that] sought me not: I said, Behold me, behold me, unto a nation [that] was not called by my name.” - Isaiah 65:1

The Lord turned to the Gentiles. In the New Testament the Church, composed of Gentiles and Jews, is also described as the Bride of the Lord Jesus, the second bride of Scripture. The Bible shows us these two brides in the same manner and pattern as the Jewish wedding, and the Jewish wedding fits the themes of the seven appointed times given by the Lord.

The Lord gave the Children of Israel three Spring Feasts in Leviticus 23:4-14, Passover, Unleavened Bread and Firstfruits. Here is how they were fulfilled:

Passover - Jesus paid the price for our sins when He died on the Cross. Jesus was the Lamb of God. (John 1:29) Jesus was the Passover Lamb.

Firstfruits - The day we recognize as Resurrection Sunday is the Jewish Feast of Firstfruits. Jesus was the Firstfruits of the grave. (First Corinthians 15:20)

Unleavened Bread - According to Scripture, “Passover Week” is the Feast of Unleavened Bread. Leavening is figurative of sin; Jesus was “unleavened,” without sin. Jesus paid the price at the Feast of Unleavened Bread.

There is a thread of continuity that flows through the seven feasts, or appointed times, first given by the Lord. Here are the steps taken in completing the Jewish wedding and its application to the wedding of the Church to the Lord Jesus, followed by how this ties to the seven appointed feasts of Israel:

The steps of the traditional Jewish wedding:

1 – Selection of the Bride
Jewish Wedding - The Son chooses the Bride – the Father makes the arrangements
Church - John 15:16 – “You did not choose Me, but I chose you . . .”

2 – The Bride Price established
Jewish Wedding - The father of the bride must be reimbursed for the loss of his daughter.
Church - I Corinthians 6:20 - “For you were bought with a price.” The Bride price was paid when Jesus died on the Cross.

We who are saved by Jesus were sought by the Lord. (Isaiah 65:1) Jesus paid the price on Passover. The appointed times of Firstfruits and Unleavened Bread complete the picture of Jesus being resurrected and being sinless, the spotless Lamb of God.

The Spring Feasts have all been fulfilled.

Pentecost, or the Feast of Weeks, was the fourth appointed time given by the Lord in Leviticus 23:15-22.

Just as the Lord deals with the Church in a separate manner from His chosen, the Jews, I strongly suspect that Pentecost, which is separate from the Spring Feasts and the Fall Feasts, is specific to the Church.

The steps of the traditional Jewish wedding:

3 – The Betrothal 
Jewish Wedding - More than mere “engagement”, it was a permanent arrangement. Recall the story of Joseph and Mary.
Church The attachment of the Church to the Lord is also permanent, and forever. “This is the bread which came down from heaven--not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.” (John 6:58) And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand. (John 10:28)

4 – The Marriage Contract
Jewish Wedding – A written agreement committing each party to the marriage.
Church - The entire Holy Bible is our written agreement containing the promises of God. Jesus said, “If ye continue in my word, [then] are ye my disciples indeed;” (John 8:31)

5 – The Bride must consent
Jewish Wedding – This is not entirely an arranged marriage; the bride must agree.
Church – “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;” (Mark 16:16) “That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.” (Romans 10:9)

6 – The Bridal Gift and the Cup of the Covenant
Jewish Wedding – A glass of wine is taken upon the signing of the contract.
Church – Each time we gather around the Lord’s Table, we remember the “contract.” “And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave [it] to them, saying, Drink ye all of it; For this is my blood of the new testament (covenant), which is shed for many for the remission of sins.” (Matthew 26:27-28)


Jewish Wedding – The Bride is given a gift by the groom.
Church - The Holy Spirit is given by Jesus –– “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.” (Acts 2:38) This, of course, occurred on the Day of Pentecost.

7 – The Ceremonial Purification of the Bride
Jewish Wedding - The next step for the Bride after she is betrothed is a ceremonial cleansing. In Biblical times the Bride would use a Mikvah, which was pool of water, in which she would immerse herself.
Church - Acts 2:41 – “Then those who gladly received his word were baptized (immersed); and that day about three thousand souls were added [to them].”

The Church is an insertion in the Lord's Plan. Israel was the original bride. I believe that the Lord Jesus will come for His bride, the Church, in a separate event (the Rapture) from the Lord's return for His bride, Israel. From this point forward in the Jewish Wedding process, following the purification of the bride, in my opinion the Church will be dealt with separately in the time defined as the Church Age, or the Age of Grace. This period of time will extend from the first Day of Pentecost to the day when the Lord Jesus calls us Home.

8 – The Groom would prepare a room for the Bride in his father’s house
Church - John 14:3 – “I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself.”

The father of the groom determines when the room is ready. The groom does not determine the time of the wedding. “But of that day and hour knoweth no [man], no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.” (Matthew 24:36)

9 – The Bride is consecrated and set apart
Church - First Peter 2:9 – “But ye [are] a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people.”

10 – The Groom returns with a shout, “Behold, the bridegroom comes!” 
Church - First Thessalonians 4:16 – “For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God.”

Let me insert an additional hope at this point. When the Lord Jesus comes for His Bride, the Church, we will not be totally surprised. Although the Jewish bride did not know the day or the hour, she was expectant. The Apostle Paul in speaking of “that Day” said, “But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day.” (First Thessalonians 5:4-5) Today, many in the Church are expectant and will not be totally surprised.

11 – The Bride and Groom go to the wedding chamber.
Church – This period when the Bride and Groom spend time together seems to show that the Bride of Jesus will be with Him in Heaven. This appears to indicate a pre-Tribulation gathering of the Church, and is described in Isaiah 26:20; “Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.” Praise the Lord!

12 – The Marriage Supper
Church – “‘Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready.’ And to her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints. Then he said to me, ‘Write: Blessed [are] those who are called to the marriage supper of the Lamb!’” (The Revelation 19:7-9)

In my opinion, the Feast of Pentecost is still being fulfilled and will be completed when the Lord Jesus comes for His bride.

 

I believe that in the remaining steps of the Jewish Wedding process, the steps will be fulfilled for Israel in a separate manner.

The next appointed time is the Feast of Trumpets. The Feast of Trumpets is a mysterious time. Of all the feasts, or appointed times, little is said of it and no scriptural reason for the feast is given. (see Leviticus 23:23-25) A trumpet (the Shofar) is blown. Trumpets make announcements. I suspect that the Feast of Trumpets will be when the Lord in some manner announces the time has come for the fulfillment of His plan for Israel.

 

The steps of the traditional Jewish wedding:

8 – The Groom would prepare a room for the Bride in his father’s house
Jewish Wedding – In Biblical times the groom would add a room to his father’s house. At that time, families lived together.
The father of the groom determines when the room is ready. The groom does not determine the time of the wedding.

9 – The Bride is consecrated and set apart
Jewish Wedding – The Bride is spoken for and belongs to no one else. Again, refer to Mary and Joseph. (Matthew 1:18-19)
At this point in the process, the Bride is always in readiness. She does not know when the Groom will return for her. For example, see Matthew 25 – The Parable of the Ten Virgins.

10 – The Groom returns with a shout, “Behold, the bridegroom comes!” 
Jewish Wedding – This was frequently done at midnight for surprise. Matthew 25:6 (the Parable of the Ten Virgins) – “And at midnight a cry (shout) was [heard]: ‘Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him!’”

Scripture tells us that a prophetic day can equal a year.

“After the number of the days in which ye searched the land, [even] forty days, each day for a year, shall ye bear your iniquities.” - Numbers 14:34

The seven days the Jewish bride and groom spend in the wedding chamber appear to equate to seven prophetic years, which parallels the last seven years of Daniel’s prophecy, and is the basis for the concept of seven years of Tribulation.

“Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.” - Daniel 9:27

 

Daniel’s last seven days (Daniel 9:27) appear to parallel the seven years of the Tribulation, while the Bride of Christ is in Heaven consummating union to Jesus Messiah and celebrating with the marriage supper. The next appointed time is the Day of Atonement. This indicates that at the end of the Tribulation, the Lord Jesus will return to redeem and make Atonement for Israel.

The latter part of the Song of Moses is prophetic of the Last Days. The very last verse of the Song of Moses says:

“Rejoice, O ye nations, [with] his people: for he will avenge the blood of his servants, and will render vengeance to his adversaries, and will be merciful unto his land, [and] to his people.”

The Hebrew word translated as “merciful” is kaphar (Strong’s H3722), and is rendered “make atonement” in the vast majority of its appearances in the Old Testament. Therefore, this verse says “He will provide atonement, for His land and His people.”

In the Revelation, immediately following the Marriage supper of the Lamb is the Return of Jesus as King of kings and Lord of lords. 

“And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him [was] called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes [were] as a flame of fire, and on his head [were] many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. ” – Revelation 19:11-14

Note that the “armies [which were] in heaven” were clothed in fine linen, white and clean, just like the Bride was given in the preceding verse 19:8. This identifies the “armies” as the Bride of Christ, Saints and Children of God, who will return in victory with the Lord Jesus.

It appears that this day will be the fulfillment of the Day of Atonement.

The next, and last, appointed time is the Feast of Tabernacles which was an eight-day event. It occurred at the time of the fall harvest, and was to be a time of joy and celebration.

“Thou shalt observe the feast of tabernacles seven days, after that thou hast gathered in thy corn and thy wine: And thou shalt rejoice in thy feast, thou, and thy son, and thy daughter, and thy manservant, and thy maidservant, and the Levite, the stranger, and the fatherless, and the widow, that [are] within thy gates.” - Deuteronomy 16:13-14

The word tabernacle can be a noun or a verb. The Tabernacle in the wilderness was a noun, but it was also a verb describing where the Lord dwelled, or tabernacled, with Israel. In the Kingdom Age the Lord Jesus will dwell, or tabernacle, with mankind.

In the Deuteronomy instructions the Children of Israel are told to celebrate for seven days. In the instructions given in Leviticus 23:33-43 they are told to hold a sacred assembly on the eighth day. In the Bible, seven is the number of completion. Therefore, eight is the number of new beginnings. Noah and his family were eight persons, and represented a new beginning for mankind. A male child was to be circumcized on the eighth day, at the beginning of his life. King David, who laid the foundations for the beginning of the Kingdom of Israel, was the eighth son of Jesse. This eighth day of the Feast of Tabernacles indicates new beginnings.

The steps of the traditional Jewish wedding:

11 – The Bride and Groom go to the wedding chamber.
Jewish Wedding - The marriage was consummated in the wedding chamber. The Bride and Groom stayed in that wedding chamber for seven days.

12 – The Marriage Supper
Jewish Wedding – A wedding feast was given for the Bride and Groom.
After the traditional Jewish Wedding the Bride and Groom lived together. This fits the picture of the Lord living, or tabernacling, with His people in the Kingdom Age and forever!

The Children of Israel were also instructed to live in booths or tents during this feast. This was to be a memorial of the time when the Lord delivered Israel from Egypt. The Feast of Tabernacles is about Deliverance and will be fulfilled when the Lord delivers Israel from her enemies. Then there will be a New Beginning for the Kingdom of God and His two brides.

The prophetic parallels between the Jewish Wedding and the Church’s Biblical Wedding are simply amazing! What a wonderful picture and wonderful hope this pattern gives to those who are saved and are the Children of God. And only the God of Creation could place this pattern within and throughout the sixty-six books of His Word. Our Heavenly Father is the ultimate Wedding Planner! Amen. 

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On ‎6‎/‎17‎/‎2017 at 3:56 PM, wingnut- said:

Of course I have experienced the Holy Spirit, He lives within me.  Your claim that He will not be present is in direct opposition to scripture, not much more I can say.

well since you have, I don't see how you can see the power of God stand by while the antichrist rules two opposing wills in battle? see when Jesus returns with just the words of his mouth will set things asunder. The demons not in power, asked Jesus full of the holy spirit, have you come to destroy us, before our time? the Holy spirit's presence doesn't allow the demons to stand, let alone function.

so where in the scripture does it say the Holy spirit will be present? please refer to the said scripture that you stand on.

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5 hours ago, WholeyGod'schild said:

well since you have, I don't see how you can see the power of God stand by while the antichrist rules two opposing wills in battle? see when Jesus returns with just the words of his mouth will set things asunder. The demons not in power, asked Jesus full of the holy spirit, have you come to destroy us, before our time? the Holy spirit's presence doesn't allow the demons to stand, let alone function.

so where in the scripture does it say the Holy spirit will be present? please refer to the said scripture that you stand on.

"I will never leave you nor forsake you" Heb 13:5

"I am with you always even to the end of the world" Matt 28:20

Romans 8 " However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. "

It does not say that the world - the lost people of the world , will always have that benefit  -- but the saints will have it.

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On 5/18/2017 at 8:49 PM, Revelation Man said:

Jacobs Troubles and the Great Tribulation period is 7 Years. Israel will be forced into a "Peace/Security" Deal.

No Bible text says that.

No text says the great tribulation is 7 years. Or that Israel will be forced into a "peace and security" deal in the future.

No parable of Christ said that there will be a 7 year tribulation period.

There is no 7 year agreement in Daniel 9 and no mention of an anti-Christ beast in Dan 9.

 

14 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

I just named the text for you, but again you couldn't see before so I didn't know if you would see it now.

I can see texts - but each time you say something and then give a text reference where the claim you make is not in the text... I keep saying 'that is not in the text. nor even in the chapter".

14 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

I just stated the facts. I have done the Hard work for you on the other question,

If so -- then it should be pretty easy to provide the texts that say what you claim. You "quote you" for support of your claims instead of the text. Then you quote a text that saying nothing at all of what you said - as if that is compelling.

14 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

the only question is, do you want to understand. When I say thins, I am not just talking without understanding.

Yes it does, he tells you about the the Jewish Bride, and the people he told it to,  the JEWS/His Disciples understood what he was saying because it was their Culture,

 

"God so Loved the World that He gave his only begotten Son" was spoken to a Jew in John 3. You are using "extreme inference" injected into these texts to insert "just for Jews". The texts themselves say nothing of the kind.

14 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

The Lord turned to the Gentiles. In the New Testament the Church, composed of Gentiles and Jews, is also described as the Bride of the Lord Jesus, the second bride of Scripture. The Bible shows us these two brides

There is no "second bride" in all of the NT and nothing in what Christ said of that form. Nor any NT writer. By contrast we do have Ephesians 2 and Hebrews 12 showing that we are all one -

Relying on "extreme inference" instead of what the Bible actually says - is not a compelling form of Bible evidence.

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8 hours ago, WholeyGod'schild said:

well since you have, I don't see how you can see the power of God stand by while the antichrist rules two opposing wills in battle? see when Jesus returns with just the words of his mouth will set things asunder. The demons not in power, asked Jesus full of the holy spirit, have you come to destroy us, before our time? the Holy spirit's presence doesn't allow the demons to stand, let alone function.

so where in the scripture does it say the Holy spirit will be present? please refer to the said scripture that you stand on.

 

Joel 2:28 “And it shall come to pass afterward
That I will pour out My Spirit on all flesh;
Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
Your old men shall dream dreams,
Your young men shall see visions.
29 And also on My menservants and on My maidservants
I will pour out My Spirit in those days.

30 “And I will show wonders in the heavens and in the earth:
Blood and fire and pillars of smoke.
31 The sun shall be turned into darkness,
And the moon into blood,
Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the Lord.
32 And it shall come to pass
That whoever calls on the name of the Lord
Shall be saved.
For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be deliverance,
As the Lord has said,
Among the remnant whom the Lord calls.

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4 hours ago, BobRyan said:

No Bible text says that.

No text says the great tribulation is 7 years. Or that Israel will be forced into a "peace and security" deal in the future.

No parable of Christ said that there will be a 7 year tribulation period.

There is no 7 year agreement in Daniel 9 and no mention of an anti-Christ beast in Dan 9.

 

I can see texts - but each time you say something and then give a text reference where the claim you make is not in the text... I keep saying 'that is not in the text. nor even in the chapter".

If so -- then it should be pretty easy to provide the texts that say what you claim. You "quote you" for support of your claims instead of the text. Then you quote a text that saying nothing at all of what you said - as if that is compelling.

 

"God so Loved the World that He gave his only begotten Son" was spoken to a Jew in John 3. You are using "extreme inference" injected into these texts to insert "just for Jews". The texts themselves say nothing of the kind.

There is no "second bride" in all of the NT and nothing in what Christ said of that form. Nor any NT writer. By contrast we do have Ephesians 2 and Hebrews 12 showing that we are all one -

Relying on "extreme inference" instead of what the Bible actually says - is not a compelling form of Bible evidence.

Wasting my time.....only those that can see will see.

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3 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Wasting my time.....only those that can see will see.

You have free will - you can choose as you wish.

 

As for me - I choose the Bible over extreme inference where statements made are not in the texts at all. I think it is a better method of Bible study - but I do not try to deny others their choice in the matter.

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On 6/10/2017 at 6:34 PM, wingnut- said:

Matthew 24:29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

29 But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

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On ‎6‎/‎19‎/‎2017 at 9:23 AM, BobRyan said:

"I will never leave you nor forsake you" Heb 13:5

"I am with you always even to the end of the world" Matt 28:20

Romans 8 " However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. "

It does not say that the world - the lost people of the world , will always have that benefit  -- but the saints will have it.

yes my point, the Holy Spirit will removed from holding all things back. we as the children of God will be leave with the Holy spirit.

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It is wonderful to see brothers in Christ edifying each other.  I believe it will be the heart of a Prophet not the mind of a scribe that will find its self in sync with Gods heart and the Spirits leanings and sweet song. as we close in on the end of this age. Perhaps Jesus will return for his Bride, not all who cry Lord Lord, as a thief, on the feast of trumpets, there would be many in the congregation that might not go at this time, Barely harvest maybe, then there would be a great falling away, the five virgins that were rejected, and all the post trib'ers might feel abandoned. the last seven years would be like a wheat harvest, with the wheat being threshed and the chafe being driven out, the tares would be separated as the wheat is perfected, each believer having the latter rain and faith, taking courage and direction from the two witness for the first 3.5 years. they would be the trib. marters, and immediately after the trib. of those days the dead in Christ would be caught up to be with the lord, and anyone else that was still alive. If he came for his bride on ether sept. 22 2017, or sept. 28 2022. the feast of atonement would be 2550 days later. just thoughts I thought i would share.  " Depart from me I never knew you" " Adam knew Eve. and a child was born"  to those that are wooed by the Holy Sprit a new creature in Christ will be born, on that day. Pentecost was the inception rev.12-2 will be the birth. God Bless !!!!! sorry for the bad spelling and grammar. 

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