Post trib?

[WholeyGod'schild]

On ‎5‎/‎27‎/‎2017 at 5:04 PM, wingnut- said:

 

Clearly they are God's children, but that does not support your claim of rapture.  They are deceased people.

where does it say rapture in the bible? The last trump? the trumpets are spoken of in revelations are of disaster and the 7th . 15Then the seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and loud voices called out in heaven: “The kingdom of the world is now the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ, and He will reign forever and ever.” 

where in there does it say rapture, or getting caught up?  so we are left with trying to understand in the bible where Jesus comes back for the church. refer back to my original post as to why I don't think it will be post tribulation. so again my understanding is just a limited as others. So my reading of the Passage is as good of a reference of the church rapture as any other. so where do you see it happening?

 

 

Can you answer a question?  I only asked you two, and your response is non-existent, you simply asked me a dozen questions in return that really don't relate to the topic at hand.

actually my response was asking you to see the heart of God, but I guess you failed to even try or respond with your thoughts, or how you interpret god's plan for his children. and yes it was a response to Egypt situation.

but since you ask for me to tell you how I see the Israelites and God. God promises Abraham to make his descendants as numerous as the stars. he carried that promise right on to today. The Israelites were men in a foreign land even living in Canaan. God brought a vision to Jacob which showed him his future and God's plan for the Israelite people, and his plan to save them from the coming famine. with out God intervening the Israelites would have surly suffered and many would have died. But God in his wisdom and goodness kept the Israelites, his people safe as promised. So the Israelites prospered in the best of the land the Egyptians had, and ate to their fill. They multiplied to such a extent that it overwhelmed the heart of the Egyptians to the point they started to kill and enslave them out of fear (Exodus 1). The Israelites suffered under the Egyptian rule but did they cry out to God or turn to him, that is a question. We do know that God was with them and had a plan, enter Moses. were they disobedient and not trust God? well the way they acted and questioned God and his purpose for them was evident in Moses statement in talking with God in Exodus 4, and his request to show and prove to the Israelites God sent him and to trust God, all that showed they probably didn't know God well or trust him as they needed to. we also see every step there lack of faith and disobedience, but God remained faithful and just with them, bringing them to safety after making the Egyptians suffer for there treatment of God's people. if you think disobedience isn't a big deal, and isn't a big deal of a sin, then I direct you to the down fall of man Genesis 3 the fall of man which happened do to disobedience. 

God brought his people out of Egypt despite them and there overt sin, and distrust of God. Yes God was close quite a few times of ending his contract with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. But the love of God was more then his anger.

Enter Jesus which is the God come in the flesh to die, so we don't have to, since we ( as he knew from the beginning) weren't able to stop sinning and turn to God and be holy. We without God (Jesus) would in all likelihood die in our sin with only a few making the cut. But God said I love you and I can't stand not having you be worthy to commune with me. So Jesus came to show us the way, and how to live. He also suffered like us so no man can say he doesn't know how it feels, or he is putting more demands on us then can be met. So Jesus Died and defeated death, and made us Holy in him and through him, so we are now eternally Holy that except him into our hearts and have him makes us a new temple of God (the new wine skin, having the old wineskin pass away) Now what was in the temple of God? The Holy spirit, the spirit of God, so now us being the new earthly temple of God we are filled with the Holy Spirit. So bring us to the original statement I posted you questioned. What is the heart of God and would he take his Spirit from us (would he remove his spirit from the temple, or remove the temple?  He removed original one, the ark of God when Jesus died for us)?

Jesus rose on the third day, showed all his disciples he had come back as promised and gave final instructions. Jesus said I am going to prepare a place for you in my Fathers house. If God is going to prepare a place for his people does he leave his people without help and comfort? 

Jesus himself said I have to leave so I can send the Comforter to you, and you will do the miracles I have here and more. Do we do these things by our own hand or by the same Spirit that descended on to Jesus.

So now please tell me what is the heart of God, why did Jesus come here?

one more question, will God take his Spirit from us (the Temple of God), or take the temple and the spirit at the same time? 

please ponder the following when you answer the above Can Satan rule here, while God rules here? If he can please include your reasoning why you think he can. If you don't think Satan can have power while God rules here, then please tell me how do to justify God taking his spirit from his people while the stay to suffer through the tribulation when Satan makes a mockery of all things that are of God.

 

Be blessed.

 

[wingnut-]

6 hours ago, WholeyGod'schild said:

where does it say rapture in the bible?

 

The word rapture doesn't appear in scripture anywhere.  It comes from the latin translation and the word rapturo, which is the translation to latin from the greek word harpazo.  Harpazo means catching away/ gathering, and that is found in numerous places in scripture, always in conjunction with His coming.

 

6 hours ago, WholeyGod'schild said:

The last trump?

 

Paul refers to the last trump.  John wrote the only detailed account of the end times in Revelation, he mentions 7 trumpets, the 7th being the last one.

 

6 hours ago, WholeyGod'schild said:

where in there does it say rapture, or getting caught up?

 

It does not say anything about being caught up in that passage.  The chronological timeline was given to us by Jesus in Matthew 24, which again places the gathering at His coming.  From there it is simply a matter of following the signs and symbols He gave us in scripture.

 

6 hours ago, WholeyGod'schild said:

so where do you see it happening?

 

Revelation 16:15 “Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he who watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame.”

16 And they gathered them together to the place called in Hebrew, Armageddon.

 

For the record, I am not of post-trib view, closer to what is called pre-wrath by others.

 

6 hours ago, WholeyGod'schild said:

What is the heart of God and would he take his Spirit from us (would he remove his spirit from the temple, or remove the temple?

 

He will never take His Spirit from us, and His elect are the temple.  The Holy Spirit is God as well, and will not cease to exist at any time.

 

6 hours ago, WholeyGod'schild said:

If God is going to prepare a place for his people does he leave his people without help and comfort? 

 

Never.  See above answer.  Evidence of this can be found in Joel's prophecy, where we are told that not only will the Holy Spirit be present in the last days, but God will pour out His spirit on people.

 

6 hours ago, WholeyGod'schild said:

So now please tell me what is the heart of God, why did Jesus come here?

 

Jesus came to bridge the great divide between God and man, to make a way for man to be reconciled to God, salvation for the sinner.

 

6 hours ago, WholeyGod'schild said:

will God take his Spirit from us (the Temple of God), or take the temple and the spirit at the same time?

 

God will never remove His spirit, under any circumstance, not even following the gathering/ catching away.

 

Joel 2:28 “And it shall come to pass afterward
That I will pour out My Spirit on all flesh;
Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
Your old men shall dream dreams,
Your young men shall see visions.
29 And also on My menservants and on My maidservants
I will pour out My Spirit in those days.

 

The Holy Spirit is not just for the believer, but the non-believer as well.  The heart of God is that He loves all, and desires all to come to Him.  The Holy Spirit speaks to all flesh, but all flesh does not answer the call.  The Holy Spirit dwells within those who believe, but has and will continue to speak to everyone.

 

6 hours ago, WholeyGod'schild said:

Can Satan rule here, while God rules here?

 

God gave satan dominion over this earth, his authority expires when the number of Gentiles comes in, this happens during the great tribulation according to scripture.

 

Revelation 6:11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.

 

The enemy will continue to rule here until Jesus returns and puts everything under His feet.

 

Hebrews 2:8 You have put all things in subjection under his feet.”

For in that He put all in subjection under him, He left nothing that is not put under him. But now we do not yet see all things put under him.

 

I Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. 24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. 27 For “He has put all things under His feet.”  But when He says “all things are put under Him,” it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. 28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.

 

6 hours ago, WholeyGod'schild said:

Be blessed.

 

God bless you too.

[WholeyGod'schild]

On ‎5‎/‎31‎/‎2017 at 11:32 AM, wingnut- said:

 

The word rapture doesn't appear in scripture anywhere.  It comes from the latin translation and the word rapturo, which is the translation to latin from the greek word harpazo.  Harpazo means catching away/ gathering, and that is found in numerous places in scripture, always in conjunction with His coming.

 

 

Paul refers to the last trump.  John wrote the only detailed account of the end times in Revelation, he mentions 7 trumpets, the 7th being the last one.

 

 

It does not say anything about being caught up in that passage.  The chronological timeline was given to us by Jesus in Matthew 24, which again places the gathering at His coming.  From there it is simply a matter of following the signs and symbols He gave us in scripture.

 

 

Revelation 16:15 “Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he who watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame.”

16 And they gathered them together to the place called in Hebrew, Armageddon.

 

For the record, I am not of post-trib view, closer to what is called pre-wrath by others.

 

 

He will never take His Spirit from us, and His elect are the temple.  The Holy Spirit is God as well, and will not cease to exist at any time.

 

 

Never.  See above answer.  Evidence of this can be found in Joel's prophecy, where we are told that not only will the Holy Spirit be present in the last days, but God will pour out His spirit on people.

 

 

Jesus came to bridge the great divide between God and man, to make a way for man to be reconciled to God, salvation for the sinner.

 

 

God will never remove His spirit, under any circumstance, not even following the gathering/ catching away.

 

Joel 2:28 “And it shall come to pass afterward
That I will pour out My Spirit on all flesh;
Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
Your old men shall dream dreams,
Your young men shall see visions.
29 And also on My menservants and on My maidservants
I will pour out My Spirit in those days.

 

The Holy Spirit is not just for the believer, but the non-believer as well.  The heart of God is that He loves all, and desires all to come to Him.  The Holy Spirit speaks to all flesh, but all flesh does not answer the call.  The Holy Spirit dwells within those who believe, but has and will continue to speak to everyone.

 

 

God gave satan dominion over this earth, his authority expires when the number of Gentiles comes in, this happens during the great tribulation according to scripture.

 

Revelation 6:11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.

 

The enemy will continue to rule here until Jesus returns and puts everything under His feet.

 

Hebrews 2:8 You have put all things in subjection under his feet.”

For in that He put all in subjection under him, He left nothing that is not put under him. But now we do not yet see all things put under him.

 

I Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. 24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. 27 For “He has put all things under His feet.”  But when He says “all things are put under Him,” it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. 28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.

 

 

God bless you too.

I agree that it isn't post Trib.

I don't see how Satan can run around free ruling here and making a mockery of God and standing in the temple declaring he is God, with the Holy spirit here and there for the children of God remaining here.

so at some point before the antichrist reveals himself, the Holy spirit will be removed from here and Satan will have his limited full reign here, "his time".

Revelations 7 9-17 NIV

The Great Multitude in White Robes

⁹ After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. ¹⁰ And they cried out in a loud voice:

“Salvation belongs to our God,
who sits on the throne,
and to the Lamb.”

¹¹ All the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. They fell down on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, ¹² saying:

“Amen!
Praise and glory
and wisdom and thanks and honor
and power and strength
be to our God for ever and ever.
Amen!”

¹³ Then one of the elders asked me, “These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?”

¹⁴ I answered, “Sir, you know.”

And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. ¹⁵ Therefore,

“they are before the throne of God
    and serve him day and night in his temple;
and he who sits on the throne
    will shelter them with his presence.
¹⁶ ‘Never again will they hunger;
    never again will they thirst.
The sun will not beat down on them,’^[a]
    nor any scorching heat.
¹⁷ For the Lamb at the center of the throne
    will be their shepherd;
‘he will lead them to springs of living water.’^[b]
    ‘And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.’^[c]”

 

if you see above where I Bolden the area of reference.  "they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." that sounds to ME like the people whom gave there life over to Jesus and were washed in the blood of the lamb, Christians!

Be blessed.

 

Edited June 2, 2017 by WholeyGod'schild
correction of punctuation.

[wingnut-]

7 hours ago, WholeyGod'schild said:

I agree that it isn't post Trib.

I don't see how Satan can run around free ruling here and making a mockery of God and standing in the temple declaring he is God, with the Holy spirit here and there for the children of God remaining here.

so at some point before the antichrist reveals himself, the Holy spirit will be removed from here and Satan will have his limited full reign here, "his time".

 

God is omnipresent, and the Holy Spirit is one third of the Godhead.  I understand that this is a view held by many, but it simply cannot be reconciled to the passage in Joel.  Notice exactly what is prophesied by Joel.

 

Joel 2:28 “And it shall come to pass afterward
That I will pour out My Spirit on all flesh;
Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
Your old men shall dream dreams,
Your young men shall see visions.

 

His Spirit will be poured out on all flesh.  Just consider this, how can anyone come to God if the Holy Spirit is not present?

 

7 hours ago, WholeyGod'schild said:

Revelations 7 9-17 NIV

The Great Multitude in White Robes

⁹ After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. ¹⁰ And they cried out in a loud voice:

“Salvation belongs to our God,
who sits on the throne,
and to the Lamb.”

¹¹ All the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. They fell down on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, ¹² saying:

“Amen!
Praise and glory
and wisdom and thanks and honor
and power and strength
be to our God for ever and ever.
Amen!”

¹³ Then one of the elders asked me, “These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?”

¹⁴ I answered, “Sir, you know.”

And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. ¹⁵ Therefore,

“they are before the throne of God
    and serve him day and night in his temple;
and he who sits on the throne
    will shelter them with his presence.
¹⁶ ‘Never again will they hunger;
    never again will they thirst.
The sun will not beat down on them,’^[a]
    nor any scorching heat.
¹⁷ For the Lamb at the center of the throne
    will be their shepherd;
‘he will lead them to springs of living water.’^[b]

 

I love this passage.  There is something important to notice about it though, it is a continuation of something we are told earlier.

 

Revelation 6:9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.

 

You have this group at the fifth seal who have been killed, they are given white robes and told to rest until more join them in death.  This is when the persecution begins, the beasts war against the saints.  The great multitude are the number of fellow servants and brethren who will be killed as this group was, which is why they come out of the tribulation.  They do not come out alive.

God bless

[WholeyGod'schild]

16 hours ago, wingnut- said:

God is omnipresent, and the Holy Spirit is one third of the Godhead.  I understand that this is a view held by many, but it simply cannot be reconciled to the passage in Joel.  Notice exactly what is prophesied by Joel.

 

Joel 2:28 “And it shall come to pass afterward
That I will pour out My Spirit on all flesh;
Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
Your old men shall dream dreams,
Your young men shall see visions.

 

His Spirit will be poured out on all flesh.  Just consider this, how can anyone come to God if the Holy Spirit is not present?

yes God is Omnipresent and omnipotent. it says I will poor out my spirit on all flesh, but does it say it will remain on all flesh? It also speaks of prophesying which happens to people when the spirit is upon them. so that brings us to the issue of acceptance and rejection of God come in the flesh. If you reject God does his spirit enter you or there for remain upon you? the answer is no. In Joel he is talking about Jesus coming and redeeming the people with his sacrifice. upon his ascension to heaven he sent his spirit upon all flesh Jew and Gentile that excepted him, no longer just the decedents of Abraham. His spirit doesn't remain with or enter sinners (people that reject him and his gift). we there for have a distinction that God's people are covered and remain in the spirit of God, the sinner has no part in God, so therefore has no part in the Holy spirit. I know many want all to make it out to be, and believe God won't allow anyone even sinners and people living in the flesh to die or be separated from God, but that just isn't the case.  

That is why in Matthew 24:14 Jesus says

14And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

he says that because everyone has to have a chance to except or reject God, before they are judged. That is also why there is a urgency to preach salvation to the nations before the great tribulation. For once the rapture happens it only gets harder to find God (as in the days of Noah). For the one that reject God and his plan will suffer, many will remain obstinate in there rejection but some will turn to God during the tribulation.

you need to ask yourself Why will it get harder? what changes? the Answer is the Holy spirit it removed from the earth, the peace of God that once remained is now taken up.

The Holy Spirit doesn't have to be present for men to realize they missed the mark, turned from God, rejected his truth. God existed in the hearts and minds, and was known by men from Adam to when Moses built the Ark for the Holy spirit to remain in, from then till today. the only thing that changed was when Jesus showed up, the Ark was no longer needed, the curtain was rendered null and void. Jesus Brought the Holy Spirit to mankind through his sacrifice, and made us Holy, and worthy to be called Children of God, and to have the Holy spirit guide us into all truth. So if you reject God, you Reject and all things God (Father, Son, Holy Spirit). So no the Holy Spirit doesn't have to be here for men to hear and know about God. For all men will know there is a God and will find him true as the tribulation happens. that is why it talks throughout Revelation that despite the disasters men still refused to turn to God, not that they didn't yield to the draw of the Spirit. The chance to experience the Holy spirit is now, before you are drawn to God in repentance from the events around you in the tribulation.  As in the Days of Noah!

 

 

16 hours ago, wingnut- said:

I love this passage.  There is something important to notice about it though, it is a continuation of something we are told earlier.

 

Revelation 6:9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.

 

You have this group at the fifth seal who have been killed, they are given white robes and told to rest until more join them in death.  This is when the persecution begins, the beasts war against the saints.  The great multitude are the number of fellow servants and brethren who will be killed as this group was, which is why they come out of the tribulation.  They do not come out alive.

God bless

you need to look at what it says very specifically:  I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held.

many throughout time have been slain for the word of God from Just after Jesus ascended to heaven (Stephen) to most every disciple died for the kingdom of God and the word of their testimony. it is happening today in the middle east and even here in America.

referring back to Revelations 7, it talks about the ones standing before God with there Robes dipped in blood of the lamb, so Christians. 7:13 ¹³ Then one of the elders asked me, “These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?” sounds to me like they suddenly appeared since it is asked "where did they come from." so it is to be said again we don't know but if you look you can see a distinct difference between the two sets of people in Robes before God worshiping.

Be blessed

Edited June 3, 2017 by WholeyGod'schild

[n2thelight]

What day is being spoken of in the below verse?

Isaiah 25:9 "And it shall be said in that day, "Lo, this is our God; we have waited for Him, and He will save us: this is the Lord; we have waited for Him, we will be glad and rejoice in His salvation."

Edited June 10, 2017 by n2thelight

[wingnut-]

On 6/3/2017 at 5:18 AM, WholeyGod'schild said:

yes God is Omnipresent and omnipotent. it says I will poor out my spirit on all flesh, but does it say it will remain on all flesh? It also speaks of prophesying which happens to people when the spirit is upon them. so that brings us to the issue of acceptance and rejection of God come in the flesh. If you reject God does his spirit enter you or there for remain upon you? the answer is no. In Joel he is talking about Jesus coming and redeeming the people with his sacrifice. upon his ascension to heaven he sent his spirit upon all flesh Jew and Gentile that excepted him, no longer just the decedents of Abraham. His spirit doesn't remain with or enter sinners (people that reject him and his gift). we there for have a distinction that God's people are covered and remain in the spirit of God, the sinner has no part in God, so therefore has no part in the Holy spirit. I know many want all to make it out to be, and believe God won't allow anyone even sinners and people living in the flesh to die or be separated from God, but that just isn't the case.  

 

Joel 2 is a future prophecy, so it is a matter of applying the time it is written in regards to.  Not everyone will accept Him, but His Spirit will be poured out on all flesh just the same, scripture is never wrong.  The passage does not in any way infer that all flesh will prophesy or come to belief, simply that His Spirit will be poured out on them, which contradicts your notion that the Holy Spirit is absent.  I don't subscribe to the camp that believes there is no punishment for the wicked, scripture is clear on the matter.

 

Matthew 25:46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

 

On 6/3/2017 at 5:18 AM, WholeyGod'schild said:

you need to ask yourself Why will it get harder? what changes?

 

That is an easy answer, things get harder because the enemy takes control via the anti-christ and makes war against the saints.  He kills anyone who refuses to worship him, and anyone who refuses to worship him cannot buy or sell.  Paul refers to it as a 'strong delusion', strong because the anti-christ will proclaim himself to be god, and he and his false prophet will perform great wonders and miraculous signs.

 

Revelation 13:13 And it performed great signs, even causing fire to come down from heaven to the earth in full view of the people. 14 Because of the signs it was given power to perform on behalf of the first beast, it deceived the inhabitants of the earth. It ordered them to set up an image in honor of the beast who was wounded by the sword and yet lived. 15 The second beast was given power to give breath to the image of the first beast, so that the image could speak and cause all who refused to worship the image to be killed. 16 It also forced all people, great and small, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hands or on their foreheads,17 so that they could not buy or sell unless they had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of its name.

 

This is what changes, a pretty convincing argument for those who love their lives.

 

On 6/3/2017 at 5:18 AM, WholeyGod'schild said:

you need to look at what it says very specifically:  I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held.

 

That's the whole point, but you are not heeding the rest of the passage.

 

Revelation 6:11 Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters, were killed just as they had been.

 

Both groups are killed, this group here and the group that will join them, which is the great multitude.  One cannot enter heaven in their earthly body, and Paul is specific about the fact we will ALL be changed into our glorified body at the same time.  These people in heaven are deceased people, a number that grows as a result of the great tribulation and the enemies war against the saints.

The great multitude will follow Jesus out of heaven, and those who are alive and remain will meet them in the air where we all get our glorified bodies and then proceed to earth to set up the millennial kingdom.  Most believers will be dead at this point, those who are alive and remain will be few, mostly made up of the Jewish remnant.

God bless

[Zemke]

Those that believe the restrainer is the Holy Spirit do not believe God leaves this place or that God leaves the believers. He goes back to dealing with the world the way He did before. He will never leave us or forsake us yes! But the day of Pentecost as in the empowering of the church to be salt and light adorned with giftings to build up the body and the world being convicted of their sin is over. God goes back to turning His purposes on His promises to the covenant people, the time of Jacobs trouble and being in the world as He had been before Pentecost.

Jesus blew on the disciples after His resurrection and said receive the Holy Spirit. They were instructed to go to Jerusalem and wait for the promise even though they had the Holy Spirit already. Indwelling of the Holy Spirit is our earnest, our down payment our new birth but the day of Pentecost was the empowering of the church to preach the gospel as He convicts the world of sin.

The ten virgins, five had oil five did not. While the others went to buy oil the Lord came. Amos speaks of a time people will search to and fro through out the land searching for a word from the Lord and will not be able to find it.

Believers will be gathering as did the believers in the upper room before Pentecost, they were waiting on the promise. "Do not forsake the gathering together especially as you see that day approaching." So also will the faithful believers be waiting on the Lord. The Holy Spirit, as in being poured out and empowering the church to preach the gospel, "work while it is the day, night comes when no man can work", will no longer be active in that manner. Things will be given over to the son of perdition for times time and half a time. Same amount of time  the Son of Man had in His ministry.

The Jewish writings are full of patterns. We keep arguing over the same scriptures because we approach them from a purely western literary mind set.

Are the trumpets in Revelation silver trumpets or rams horns? Silver trumpets or the metal trumpets were used at any time. Especially when the camp was to leave. Rams horns were specific. If the trumpets in Revelation are rams horns the last trumpet of the seven is not the last trump. The last trump was blown for the rest of the camp, the southern camp, to leave. The rams horns at the battle of Jericho were blown and when the last of them were blown the city was then given over into their hands, Just as the last of the trumpets in Revelation. There is much more to putting this all together and to figure it all out and no one has it all figured out just yet because it's a revelation, the curtain rises and we see more and more. A revealing, as we get closer and closer to the object we see more and more. It's very difficult to see anything further if we think we see it all already.

The Night, darkness is used over and over describing the time of the end. "Work while it is day, night comes when no man can work." The Holy Spirit as in the day of Pentecost is withdrawn and the man of sin is exposed, revealed, for who he is. 2Thess. ch2 reads very clear.

[OneLight]

Jesus spoke about the coming of the Holy Spirit.  Jesus never spoke about the removal of the Holy Spirit, nor did Jesus ever state that we will return to the old covenant.

[Zemke]

26 minutes ago, OneLight said:

Jesus spoke about the coming of the Holy Spirit.  Jesus never spoke about the removal of the Holy Spirit, nor did Jesus ever state that we will return to the old covenant.

Once again you misrepresent what I wrote. I did not write return to the old covenant. It's the time of Jacobs trouble. His focus goes from the Gentile nations to His covenant people. And again it's not a removal as in 'not present'.  He will still be with believers until killed or rescued and obviously certain people will have the Holy Spirit like the 144,000 just like certain people did before. Elijah was told there were 7,000 more like him, so you can't just sweepingly say I'm saying the Holy Spirit will not be around. But the time will be given over into the hands of the son of perdition and we are told in Revelation people will still not repent even after judgement after judgement. So where is the convicting of sin during this time on the nations? Which is what I'm saying is no longer happening. God will send a strong delusion so people will believe a lie who do not love the truth, so how does that even work if He is pouring out His spirit to convict the world of sin?

You posted 2 minutes after my post which tells me you had no consideration or thought about what I wrote but with a blanket statement you again misrepresented what I wrote.