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The Elect


kenny2212

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5 hours ago, wingnut- said:

Jesus is speaking of Himself, that is how.  In the Old Testament prophesies was He not prophesied as the suffering servant?  Servant being the key term in this, and I think it should be fairly obvious that His entire ministry on this earth did nothing but display servitude, founded in humility.

 

We have run into a conundrum.  You earlier said that both OT and NT saints are the one body.   From the Ephesians passage you posted, it would seem to suggest that, at first glance.

Using your argument that Yeshua is in view regarding the least in the kingdom, and He said that the least in the Kingdom was greater than JB, so would that make JB less than the least?  Seems like a non sequitur.  And if JB is less than the least, that must mean he isn't in the kingdom.  And since he was the greatest born of woman, then that must mean that all those preceding him are not in the kingdom either.  Saved unto eternal life, for sure, but not in the kingdom.

And if Yeshua the greatest because He is the least, then whomever is the greatest. are they then now the least?  And if they are least because they are the greatest, does that now make them the greatest because now they are the least?   Classic case of circular reasoning if there ever was one. 

But what is it that is required to be in the kingdom?  To be born again, per John 3:3.   And how is one born again?  1 Peter 1:18-23 tells us. By the blood of Yeshua.  Since JB died before the Messiah was crucified and resurrected, he therefore is not part of the Kingdom that is made up of those that have trusted in the finished work of Yeshua.

Doesn't mean that JB, Moses, David, Isaiah, et al are not saved to eternal life, it just means they are not of the same kingdom of those that came to faith after Yeshua's sacrifice and resurrection. So my initial contention remains... there are delineations between NT saints and OT saints.  Just as there will be between NT saints now and those that come to faith during the 70th week of Daniel.  But that is another topic altogether.

I  contend that the Ephesians reference has more in view the dividing wall between Jew and Gentile and God and gentile.  Sure the foundation has been laid by the Prophets and Patriarchs, with the cornerstone being Yeshua.  But that doesn't imply the same as the kingdom.  Jew and Gentile that believe and trust in the finished work of Yeshua are one body in the Messiah.  The foundation of the faith is more in view.  Hebrews elaborates extensively on that.

 

An analogy:

The slowest broadband communication is faster than the fastest dial up communication.  Now, XYZ company may have the greatest dial up of any company that has ever provided dial up.   But even then, the slowest broadband is still faster than the fastest dial up.  So to be least in the NT kingdom is always going to be greater than the greatest of the OT that preceded it. 

Edited by OldCoot
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15 hours ago, fixerupper said:

And Christians should look 'just to see' if these verses jive!

1.  Being a Christian DOES make one 'elect' or CHOSEN.  That's the definition of the word 'EKLEKTOS'!

And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

2.  The word 'chosen' in Ephesians 1:4 isn't the word, "EKLEKTOS."  It's the word, "eklegomai," which means, "CHOICE MADE!"

Ephesians 1:4

According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

So much for Christians having a good hermeneutic

Why would God intercede in a person's life, without them even asking? When your free-will goes against God's purpose for your life, God will intercede. When Paul's "free will" was to destroy all Christians, God's will was to take this highly educated man, and use Paul as the instrument for Him. Paul used to same drive to destroy Christians, that he used later to convert people, after his conversion.

We read that the Lord said; "...For He is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and Kings, and children of Israel:" Acts 9:15

Ephesians 1:5 "Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,"

"Predestined" means "from a prior time", or "required to do a certain thing" in the Greek text. You have a choice of loving God, or loving Satan. God will not interfere with your free will choice to chose Him or Satan. However, that person that proved himself during the overthrow of Satan, were "justified", or earned the right to be called "saints", from that first earth age.

Each soul comes from God, and enters an embryo at conception. This is why Jeremiah was a chosen one. "Before I formed thee in the belly I know thee; and before thou comest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet of nations." Jeremiah 1:5

"Sanctified" thee, is to "set aside, or apart for a purpose". Sins still have to be repented, and the price to pay for them still had to be made. To the predestined, and fore chosen, God can make life so miserable to those out of His will that they will repent. God has a perfect will, and God is always fair.

"And we know that all things work together for good, to them that love God, to them who are the called according to His purpose." Romans 8:28 This verse is directed to a certain people, with a condition attached. This applies to "them who are called according to His purpose." "His purpose" is called God's plan, and God's overall plan is the offering of Salvation to all. That plan includes the teaching of God's Word; to plant seeds to convict; to live our life for Him; and to go and speak where God leads you. God will use you as it pleases Him.

"For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren." Romans 8:29 God knew you, and what you were in that first earth age; and then [in that first earth age] God prearranged our destiny for this age. That destiny is to make us conform, or be like His Son, Jesus Christ. Though Jesus is the first fruits to overcome death, there are many that have that victory over death, through Christ's death and resurrection.

"Moreover whom He did predestinate, them He also called: and whom He called: He also justified: and whom He justified, them He also glorified." Romans 8:30 "Justified" means "judged" in the Greek text; God judged them there in that first earth age, and that is why God can and does intercede in the chosen's ones lives. The justified are the priests of the Zadok in the millennium age of Ezekiel 40, for the word Zadok comes from the Hebrew word meaning "the just".

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2 hours ago, OldCoot said:

We have run into a conundrum.  You earlier said that both OT and NT saints are the one body.   From the Ephesians passage you posted, it would seem to suggest that, at first glance.

 

The Ephesians passage doesn't merely suggest anything, it flat out states it as fact.  Just break it down a little at a time.

 

Ephesians 2:11 Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called “the uncircumcision” by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands— 12 remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.

 

Speaking to the Gentiles, who were separated from Christ, alienated from Israel, strangers to the promise.

 

Ephesians 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility 

 

Now in Jesus, the Gentiles and the Jews have been made ONE, the dividing wall broken down in HIS flesh.

 

Ephesians 2:15 by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, 16 and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility.

 

His sacrifice on the cross kills the dividing wall of hostility, so He could create ONE new man in place of TWO.  Again, we are talking about Gentiles and Jews.

 

Ephesians 2: 17 And he came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near. 18 For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father.

 

He came and preached peace to both groups, so that both groups have access through ONE Spirit.

 

Ephesians 2:19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone,

 

Verse 19, the you who are no longer strangers and aliens are the Gentiles, same wording used in the first verse of the passage, but now fellow citizens with THE SAINTS (JEWS) and members of God's household.  Jesus being the cornerstone of this household, the foundation being both the APOSTLES and the PROPHETS.

 

Ephesians 2:21 in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. 22 In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit.

 

The whole structure spoken of previously is the cornerstone and the foundation that the Jews and Gentiles are built upon, are joined TOGETHER, and built TOGETHER.  Reference to the New Jerusalem, as shown in this example from Revelation.

 

Revelation 3:12 The one who conquers, I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God. Never shall he go out of it, and I will write on him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down from my God out of heaven, and my own new name.

 

So, it is no conundrum, it is simply what is written.  Confirmed numerous times by Paul.

 

I Corinthians 12:12 For just as the body is one and has many members, and all the members of the body, though many, are one body, so it is with Christ.13 For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and all were made to drink of one Spirit.

 

The question becomes, do you accept what Paul had to say on the matter?  There is simply no such division that you suggest in scripture, scripture states the exact opposite, and it is not vague about it.

God bless

 

 

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3 hours ago, OldCoot said:

But what is it that is required to be in the kingdom?  To be born again, per John 3:3.   And how is one born again?  1 Peter 1:18-23 tells us. By the blood of Yeshua.  Since JB died before the Messiah was crucified and resurrected, he therefore is not part of the Kingdom that is made up of those that have trusted in the finished work of Yeshua.

 

There is only one kingdom, just as there is only one Savior, one way to eternal life, one seed, one body, and one Spirit.  I don't know what kingdom you are expecting, but when Jesus taught us to pray, this is what He said.

 

Matthew 6:9 Pray then like this:

“Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name.
10 Your kingdom come,
your will be done,
    on earth as it is in heaven.

 

It is God the Father's kingdom that will come, and it is called the New Jerusalem.  It was promised to Israel in the Old Testament, and to the church in the New Testament.  Both will be there together as scripture states.  And it is important that you recognize the kingdom COMES, and it is coming to earth as stated in Revelation.

 

3 hours ago, OldCoot said:

And if Yeshua the greatest because He is the least, then whomever is the greatest. are they then now the least?  And if they are least because they are the greatest, does that now make them the greatest because now they are the least?   Classic case of circular reasoning if there ever was one.

 

Honestly, I'm amazed that you don't see this.  It isn't circular reasoning at all, actually, what you are doing here is complicating the matter by trying to talk yourself out of something that is clear.   The passage in Ephesians is straightforward, yet you don't want to accept it, instead, you are trying to build a theology on a verse that seems to be confusing you.

Let me ask you this, were the disciples right to argue and question about who among them was the greatest?

 

Luke 22:26 But not so with you. Rather, let the greatest among you become as the youngest, and the leader as one who serves.

 

Not according to Jesus, this is not what He wanted from them at all.  He wanted them to serve, as He served.  Pick up your cross and follow Me should ring some bells.  The fact is, it was not about being greater or lesser, and should not be for any follower of Christ.  If anyone is serving for rewards, then they are self serving, and their heart is not right.

God sent His Son out of love, and Jesus died out of love.  This is the greatest service anyone can ever perform, and no one, absolutely no one, can ever match His love.  Jesus died for every single person, so that a way was made for all mankind.

 

John 15:13  Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends.

 

Jesus laid down His life for all, that can't be topped by anyone.  You could sacrifice yourself tomorrow for a thousand people and you won't even be close.  The entire point of the topic of greatest and least is to display a servants heart, selflessness.

The other point you are overlooking is exactly what took place on the cross.  Jesus took on the sins of the world, every single one of them committed by every single person that will ever live.  When a believer stands before the Lord, there is no sin to be found, not because we have not sinned, but because that debt was paid in full.

 

Matthew 23:9 And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven. 10 Neither be called instructors, for you have one instructor, the Christ. 11 The greatest among you shall be your servant. 12 Whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

 

So which did Jesus do, exalt or humble Himself?

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26 minutes ago, wingnut- said:

 

There is only one kingdom, just as there is only one Savior, one way to eternal life, one seed, one body, and one Spirit.  I don't know what kingdom you are expecting, but when Jesus taught us to pray, this is what He said.

 

Matthew 6:9 Pray then like this:

“Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name.
10 Your kingdom come,
your will be done,
    on earth as it is in heaven.

 

It is God the Father's kingdom that will come, and it is called the New Jerusalem.  It was promised to Israel in the Old Testament, and to the church in the New Testament.  Both will be there together as scripture states.  And it is important that you recognize the kingdom COMES, and it is coming to earth as stated in Revelation.

 

 

Honestly, I'm amazed that you don't see this.  It isn't circular reasoning at all, actually, what you are doing here is complicating the matter by trying to talk yourself out of something that is clear.   The passage in Ephesians is straightforward, yet you don't want to accept it, instead, you are trying to build a theology on a verse that seems to be confusing you.

Let me ask you this, were the disciples right to argue and question about who among them was the greatest?

 

Luke 22:26 But not so with you. Rather, let the greatest among you become as the youngest, and the leader as one who serves.

 

Not according to Jesus, this is not what He wanted from them at all.  He wanted them to serve, as He served.  Pick up your cross and follow Me should ring some bells.  The fact is, it was not about being greater or lesser, and should not be for any follower of Christ.  If anyone is serving for rewards, then they are self serving, and their heart is not right.

God sent His Son out of love, and Jesus died out of love.  This is the greatest service anyone can ever perform, and no one, absolutely no one, can ever match His love.  Jesus died for every single person, so that a way was made for all mankind.

 

John 15:13  Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends.

 

Jesus laid down His life for all, that can't be topped by anyone.  You could sacrifice yourself tomorrow for a thousand people and you won't even be close.  The entire point of the topic of greatest and least is to display a servants heart, selflessness.

The other point you are overlooking is exactly what took place on the cross.  Jesus took on the sins of the world, every single one of them committed by every single person that will ever live.  When a believer stands before the Lord, there is no sin to be found, not because we have not sinned, but because that debt was paid in full.

 

Matthew 23:9 And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven. 10 Neither be called instructors, for you have one instructor, the Christ. 11 The greatest among you shall be your servant. 12 Whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

 

So which did Jesus do, exalt or humble Himself?

I see nothing wrong with being called ( instructor ) mine says call no one Rabbi. 

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On ‎21‎/‎05‎/‎2017 at 8:22 AM, missmuffet said:

The elect are those who have a genuine belief in Jesus Christ and are saved. Born again believers who will go in the rapture of the Church. It has nothing to do with Israelites.

Hi missmuffet,

Have you read Isaiah 45 recently -

`For Jacob my servant`s sake, and ISRAEL MY ELECT.` (Isa. 45: 4)

Israel is God`s elect, & so is the Body of Christ, elect also. We need then to ask what each of these are `chosen, appointed` for?

Marilyn.

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14 minutes ago, coheir said:

I see nothing wrong with being called ( instructor ) mine says call no one Rabbi. 

 

Rabbi is the Hebrew word for teacher, instructor is another English word for it, same meaning.  I post the ESV translation.

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