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500th anniv of Protestant Reformation. Luther or Pope Francis? Which is right?


BobRyan

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As we enter the 500th year of the Protestant Reformation - is it time to declare its "demise" as Pope Francis announced a few years ago?

 

"We are of the conviction that the papacy is the seat of the true and real Antichrist" (Martin Luther).  D'Aubigné, b.6, ch. 9. 

By contrast 500 years after the reformation started -- who do Lutherans agree with? Luther? or Pope Francis? What about other Protesant groups - can any of them really get behind Luther's statement?

In all fairness to Luther - the Popes had already been saying that same thing about each other - before Luther ever did. Maybe they were all wrong. OR where they?

What makes anyone think that they might have all been right?

What are your thoughts on this 500th anniversary year?

 

==========================================

from: http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/issues/july-24th-2015/the-popes-great-evangelical-gamble/

"Somewhere in Pope Francis’s office is a document that could alter the course of Christian history. It declares an end to hostilities between Catholics and Evangelicals and says the two traditions are now “united in mission because we are declaring the same Gospel”. The Holy Father is thinking of signing the text in 2017, the 500th anniversary of the Reformation, alongside Evangelical leaders representing roughly one in four Christians in the world today.

Francis is convinced that the Reformation is already over. He believes it ended in 1999, the year the Catholic Church and the Lutheran World Federation issued a joint declaration on justification, the doctrine at the heart of Luther’s protest."

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from http://ktfnews.com/tony-palmer-collapse-protestantism/

2014 article about Tony Palmer.

"Palmer had a passion to bring Evangelicals and Pentecostals into visible unity with Rome. He and the Pope made a video for Kenneth Copeland’s ministerial conference in Texas earlier in 2014. During that meeting, Palmer told the audience, many of whom did not know, that the Catholic and Lutheran Churches had signed a declaration in 1999 saying they now agreed on the doctrine of justification by faith.

“We preach the same Gospel now,” Palmer told the gathering. “The protest is over.” The Pentecostals reacted rapturously. Copeland burst into speaking in “gibberish,” often wrongly referred to as speaking in tongues.

"After sharing the video with 3,000 Pentecostal pastors in February, it went viral on YouTube. Palmer was inundated by requests from evangelical leaders to be included in the “convergence” movement, as it is sometimes called. Palmer cancelled his teaching commitments and other personal studies in order to keep up with the correspondence. He updated Pope Francis in a meeting in April. The pope expressed his amazement.

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The "acid test" for the Protestant Reformation is... Sola Scriptura

Do both Protestants and Catholics now agree that "Sola Scriptura" testing of all doctrine, tradition and practice is the "gold standard" by which all must be tested?

If they do and if Protestants remain unchanged on that for over 500 years- then the reformation is over because Protestants won.

If they do agree and Protestants have shelved their Bibles on that point - then the RCC won and the Reformation is over.

If they don't agree and both remain entrenched on opposite sides of that question - then the Reformation is ongoing.

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I agree - and I also think the Protestant Reformation is not dead "yet"

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The Reformation to me is more about, "Ad fontes: back to sources," and "Solae Scriptura: Scripture Alone." The Reformation was about getting back to the sources of authentic and biblical faith contained in the written down words. From there the Reformers took their different views, Luther clinging to mix of Catholcisim and Protestantism, he supported Transubstantiation, a doctrine of the 1511 Second Council of Trent, but denounced Indulgences and other Catholic ideas. Then there was Zwingli, who was more radical with his symbolism view points, and then there is John Calvin and his confusing TULIP Mania and Ecclesiastical Exercises.

To me the key element of Reformation to celebrate is "The Scriptures." As for confusing mess beyond that, well that's "Finally, brothers and sisters, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable--if anything is excellent or praiseworthy--think about such things," (Philippians 4:8), and "We destroy arguments and every lofty opinion raised against the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive to obey Christ," (2 Corinthians 10:5).
 

Edited by Fidei Defensor
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1 hour ago, Yowm said:

I agree with the ad fontes concept of getting back to the source which cuts through much of the theological sophistry and philosophy in the Middle Ages, cuts through any questionable teaching from the Church Fathers and lands us upon God's revelation as recorded in Holy Scripture...even in their original languages.

Indeed, the Apostolic Fathers (not Apostles) and Medieval scholasticism are inhibitors of the Truth. We must abide in Christ (John 17:20-23) and hold to one measure for sound doctrine, theology, and beyond, The Holy Scriptures.   

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7 hours ago, BobRyan said:

As we enter the 500th year of the Protestant Reformation - is it time to declare its "demise" as Pope Francis announced a few years ago?

 

"We are of the conviction that the papacy is the seat of the true and real Antichrist" (Martin Luther).  D'Aubigné, b.6, ch. 9. 

By contrast 500 years after the reformation started -- who do Lutherans agree with? Luther? or Pope Francis? What about other Protesant groups - can any of them really get behind Luther's statement?

In all fairness to Luther - the Popes had already been saying that same thing about each other - before Luther ever did. Maybe they were all wrong. OR where they?

What makes anyone think that they might have all been right?

What are your thoughts on this 500th anniversary year?

 

==========================================

from: http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/issues/july-24th-2015/the-popes-great-evangelical-gamble/

"Somewhere in Pope Francis’s office is a document that could alter the course of Christian history. It declares an end to hostilities between Catholics and Evangelicals and says the two traditions are now “united in mission because we are declaring the same Gospel”. The Holy Father is thinking of signing the text in 2017, the 500th anniversary of the Reformation, alongside Evangelical leaders representing roughly one in four Christians in the world today.

Francis is convinced that the Reformation is already over. He believes it ended in 1999, the year the Catholic Church and the Lutheran World Federation issued a joint declaration on justification, the doctrine at the heart of Luther’s protest."

The Protestant reformation is all but dead, it's sad, but I honestly believe that the Roman Catholics have eventually won.

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Guest Judas Machabeus
9 hours ago, BobRyan said:

"Somewhere in Pope Francis’s office is a document that could alter the course of Christian history. It declares an end to hostilities between Catholics and Evangelicals and says the two traditions are now “united in mission because we are declaring the same Gospel”. The Holy Father is thinking of signing the text in 2017, the 500th anniversary of the Reformation, alongside Evangelical leaders representing roughly one in four Christians in the world today.

I read similar things saying hes about to allow gay marriage, woman priest etc etc. 

Catholic believe that same thing when it comes to faith and works. Works are a fruit of faith and it's by Gods grace that we are able to do works that produce fruit. 

Where we disagree is we do not believe that the sacraments are works were as Protestants consider those as earning salvation. And there is no reconciliation between those two views. 

Same with sola scriptura. The Church rejects that teaching and again there is no reconciliation there. 

Understand, Catholics do not believe the Pope is perfect and correct 100% of the time. 

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1 hour ago, Judas Machabeus said:

Catholics do not believe the Pope is perfect and correct 100% of the time. 

this is a incorrect statement when it has doctrine called ex cathedra...

  1. ex ca·the·dra
    [ˌeks kəˈTHēdrə]
    ADVERB
    1. with the full authority of office (especially of the pope's infallibility as defined in Roman Catholic doctrine):
      "for an encyclical to be infallible the pope must speak ex cathedra"
       
      Do you not know your leadership believes this? You really should know what your following! It appears your doing so blindly?
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31 minutes ago, Gary Lee said:

With the exception of Judas and a few other knowledgeable catholics on this forum, I, in MY experience, talking/witnessing to catholics, my relatives, friends, and strangers, realize that I have not met ONE, nor know one catholic, who has the scriptural knowledge, of any of my young grandchildren, especially concerning salvation. These are simply every day average working class people, going through their every day struggles, and occasionally paying tribute to the holy mother church. About the only thing they can tell me about their church and it's doctrine is what they have heard on/in the media about what el popo has announced lately to the press. It's really a shame. Don't freak out. I love all those hard headed/uninformed catholics. (I was one, till the truth set me free)     And I won't let up. 

It is hard to make them understand that we don't hate them but the doctrine they bleed from is the blood of darkness....

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