Did Paul Have a Woman as His Pastor? (Charisma News)

[PlanetChee]

5 hours ago, Willa said:

I agree that Phoebe was a deaconess.  The follow details the calling of the first deacons.

Act 6:1 AMP NOW ABOUT this time, when the number of the disciples was greatly increasing, complaint was made by the Hellenists (the Greek-speaking Jews) against the [native] Hebrews because their widows were being overlooked and neglected in the daily ministration (distribution of relief).

Act 6:2  So the Twelve [apostles] convened the multitude of the disciples and said, It is not seemly or desirable or right that we should have to give up or neglect [preaching] the Word of God in order to attend to serving at tables and superintending the distribution of food.

Act 6:3  Therefore select out from among yourselves, brethren, seven men of good and attested character and repute, full of the [Holy] Spirit and wisdom, whom we may assign to look after this business and duty.

Act 6:4  But we will continue to devote ourselves steadfastly to prayer and the ministry of the Word.

Act 6:5  And the suggestion pleased the whole assembly, and they selected Stephen, a man full of faith (a strong and welcome belief that Jesus is the Messiah) and full of and controlled by the Holy Spirit, and Philip, and Prochorus, and Nicanor, and Timon, and Parmenas, and Nicolaus, a proselyte (convert) from Antioch.

Act 6:6  These they presented to the apostles, who after prayer laid their hands on them.

We see that the apostles were the pastors/bishops/elders/overseers who did the preaching and expounding on the word.  They chose deacons to serve tables and superintended the distribution of food so that the widows were not overlooked.  Stephen, the first martyr, was one of them.  And he certainly could preach a powerful message under the power of the Holy Spirit, which then got him stoned to death.  But that his primary duty as a deacon was to see that food be distributed to everyone.  Deacons took care of the business affairs of the church so that the pastors/bishops could preach the Word.  One of the qualifications of both was that they be the husband of one wife.  Yet we see that Phoebe was described as a deacon.  1 Timothy 3:1-13, Titus 1N:5-9

The guy who wrote the article is twisting the Scriptures to fit his beliefs and telling women what they want to hear.  Sorry.  

I think what people forget when they make such arguments is something two fold. First, the word pastor as we know it today did not exist in Biblical times. Not Preacher, not Minister. Deaconess would be the fairest title for authority in those days. And of all things when Paul was writing to his churches he would know to whom he was speaking. 

And most importantly what is forgotten when people make arguments that seeks to renounce Paul's statement that we are all one in Christ Jesus, and there is no male or female, that they in so doing forget what God said and created in Genesis 1:27. So God created mankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them.

 

[Willa]

30 minutes ago, PlanetChee said:

Did you find that last part below the Lexicon entry at the In Christ blog?

It is in Word Study Dictionary by Spiros Zodiates.

[Willa]

33 minutes ago, PlanetChee said:

I think what people forget when they make such arguments is something two fold. First, the word pastor as we know it today did not exist in Biblical times. Not Preacher, not Minister. Deaconess would be the fairest title for authority in those days. And of all things when Paul was writing to his churches he would know to whom he was speaking. 

And most importantly what is forgotten when people make arguments that seeks to renounce Paul's statement that we are all one in Christ Jesus, and there is no male or female, that they in so doing forget what God said and created in Genesis 1:27. So God created mankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them.

 

Bishop  or else elder was the word used for the head pastor who preached the Word.  This was the statement is 1 Tim.  The bishop had to be a man of one wife.  It is very clear.  The person in authority was the Bishop,  and the helpers were the deacons which also means servant.  They presided over serving food and distributing to peoples needs.  They were the helpers of Paul and the apostles.  In our church they preside over preparing and distributing Communion.   They check to be sure the church is clean of papers and clutter after the services. They move chairs for events.  

Yes men and women are equal in Christ and in heaven there will be no sex.  Slaves and free are equal, Jews and Gentiles are equal.   But God has ordained a chain of command.  We answer to our husbands and they answer to God.   In the church we are to defer to the Bishop and he is responsible to God for us spiritually.    Heb 13:17  AMP Obey your spiritual leaders and submit to them [continually recognizing their authority over you], for they are constantly keeping watch over your souls and guarding your spiritual welfare, as men who will have to render an account [of their trust]. [Do your part to] let them do this with gladness and not with sighing and groaning, for that would not be profitable to you [either].

 1Ti 3:2  Now a bishop (superintendent, overseer) must give no grounds for accusation but must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, circumspect and temperate and self-controlled; [he must be] sensible and well behaved and dignified and lead an orderly (disciplined) life; [he must be] hospitable [showing love for and being a friend to the believers, especially strangers or foreigners, and be] a capable and qualified teacher.

 When we can't agree with the teaching of a leader and believe he is in error, we need to find a place where we respect the bishop's leadership. 

Bishop  (VINE)

1. episkopos (G1985), lit., an overseer" (epi, "over," skopeo, "to look or watch"), whence Eng. "bishop," which has precisely the same meaning, is found in Act 20:28; Php 1:1; 1Ti 3:2; Tit 1:7; 1Pe 2:25. See OVERSEER.

Note: Presbuteros, "an elder," is another term for the same person as bishop or overseer. See Act 20:17 with Act 20:28. The term "elder" indicates the mature spiritual experience and understanding of those so described; the term "bishop," or "overseer," indicates the character of the work undertaken. According to the divine will and appointment, as in the NT, there were to be "bishops" in every local church, Act 14:23; Act 20:17; Php 1:1; Tit 1:5; Jas 5:14. Where the singular is used, the passage is describing what a "bishop" should be, 1Ti 3:2; Tit 1:7. Christ Himself is spoken of as "the... Bishop of our souls," 1Pe 2:25. See ELDER.

2. episkope (G1984), besides its meaning, "visitation," e.g., 1Pe 2:12 (cf. the Sept. of Exo 3:16; Isa 10:3; Jer 10:15), is rendered "office," in Act 1:20, RV (KJV, "bishoprick"); in 1Ti 3:1 "the office of a bishop," lit., "(if any one seeketh) overseership," there is no word representing office.

Note: The corresponding verb is episkopeo, which, in reference to the work of an overseer, is found in 1Pe 5:2, RV, "exercising the oversight," for KJV "taking the oversight." see OVERSIGHT.

   

[gdemoss]

On 5/30/2017 at 11:54 AM, PlanetChee said:

Amen? You give blessing to what is reported there as destruction to a people? 

When in reality you would have to consolidate that out of context excerpt that is not speaking in the way you hope against women leaders, with those scriptures in the OP and the linked article, that show God and his Angel also in one passage, appointed women to be in leadership over men. Even those who claim those women were Deaconesses were still in leadership over men. And that then rebuffs what is claimed by some about the new testament pastoral letters Paul sent to Corinth. Instructing that women should not speak in church. 

In reality, the truth and full context of Isaiah 3 is not what you hope. 

http://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/isaiah-31-15-a-commentary/

I was once on the side that you present.  I dogmatically fought on the side of equality between women and men.  I used every ounce of material against those that opposed.  I found out I was wrong.  Not because someone on a forum argued truth from a scriptural viewpoint or from sitting in a pew in church.  My learning came from practical experience ministering unto people.  The ministry was never about who has authority or who is greater or lesser.  It was geared towarded simply working with people, both men and women, seeking to bring them unto a personal relationship with God.  Practical experience of working with both men and women convicted me of biblical truth.  I have experienced first hand gen 3:16 where it is womens curse to desire to rule over their husbands but authority was given to men.  I don't expect you to budge one bit away from your belief in this thread but rather use the occasion to place the truth before people so that those who can receive it do.  I have great sympathy for women because of that curse and what it does to whole households.  It is easy for deceivers to enter into houses and lead away women who are laden with sin as it is written.  Truly women are tge weaker vessel and easier to be deceived.  I don't say that to be little or look down upon but simply accept it as truth because it has proven true in every case I have encountered in ministry.  Women fight for superiority under the guise of equality.  Been that way since the beginning.  

[SchmaltzWeasel]

14 hours ago, PlanetChee said:

Did you find that last part below the Lexicon entry at the In Christ blog?

I see your point. Willa's entire post is found at that site. The author linked the source for the dialog but those don't work anymore. 

14 hours ago, Willa said:

It is in Word Study Dictionary by Spiros Zodiates.

You're suppose to link your sources aren't you? When copying someone's text from another source? You've not done that here. 

12 hours ago, gdemoss said:

I was once on the side that you present.  I dogmatically fought on the side of equality between women and men.  I used every ounce of material against those that opposed.  I found out I was wrong.  Not because someone on a forum argued truth from a scriptural viewpoint or from sitting in a pew in church.  My learning came from practical experience ministering unto people.  The ministry was never about who has authority or who is greater or lesser.  It was geared towarded simply working with people, both men and women, seeking to bring them unto a personal relationship with God.  Practical experience of working with both men and women convicted me of biblical truth.  I have experienced first hand gen 3:16 where it is womens curse to desire to rule over their husbands but authority was given to men.  I don't expect you to budge one bit away from your belief in this thread but rather use the occasion to place the truth before people so that those who can receive it do.  I have great sympathy for women because of that curse and what it does to whole households.  It is easy for deceivers to enter into houses and lead away women who are laden with sin as it is written.  Truly women are tge weaker vessel and easier to be deceived.  I don't say that to be little or look down upon but simply accept it as truth because it has proven true in every case I have encountered in ministry.  Women fight for superiority under the guise of equality.  Been that way since the beginning.  

That's a really sorry way to see things. Women fight for equality because men thinking they're superior argue repeatedly and against even Paul's word, much less God's, in the case of Christian males, that women are to be inferior and subservient and less than men. And their authority for saying that in order to avoid accepting they are sinning as sexist bigots  is, "God said it." 

And nothing , not even God's actual word, changes their mind. God doesn't think like we do. He says so. That means the cultural discrimination against the female sex isn't God's. Wasn't Gods. 
That passage in Genesis that was shared here? Refutes your argument completely. We're all made in the image and likeness of God. Who is sovereign over his creation. Thinking part of himself is inferior to the other part is absurd. 

Argue as you want to. Display the teachings of Christ in that way. That his Father inspired writers, all males by the way, to tell the world for all time that he supports gender discrimination. And in that manner appear Christlike. 
Anyone who hears that can prove that's not true . All they have to do is read the new testament. And then look toward the Christlike that say those things about God and realize , that's not Christ. Obviously. It is right there in writing. And in Paul's letters. All one in Christ Jesus. No male or female. Meaning, as Paul would know because of the Pharisaical background he had as one educated in the law of God, that there was not the gender inequality he once taught. And refusing to accept what his letter meant about women being quiet in church doesn't represent someone is committed to the truth of Paul's letters. It represents they're committed to gender discrimination while implicating Paul. 

Women are to be quiet in church? That's why there isn't a single woman serving in the choir. Teaching in Sunday school. Leading a prayer on Sunday morning. Sharing their testimony aloud. Going door to door proselytizing. Oh yeah, I almost forgot, and preaching!

This discussion will go forever.Because men refuse to believe women can be equal. Must bug the heck out of that kind of man that women can have babies and not be married. They can vote. They can pursue careers where men that think like that pay them less than their male colleagues. There's the ideal atmosphere. Inequality in the work place. Woo hoo! 

In the beginning God made woman and man in his likeness and image. And then he called the woman inferior being part of his parts.  Imagine such men making your kind of argument before the throne of God after they're dead.  Hi God! I believed in you. And I believed you were a gender bigot and told us so and meant us to live believing that and converting others to believe it too. Page after page, argument after argument intending to tell people the sin of gender discrimination, bigotry, that humans had to repent of was righteous for you God.

And afterward when God hears all that nonsense being defended? Ewwww, that's gonna hurt. What's really pathetic is women that argue they are doormats. And God approves. That God would never trust them to deliver his word. He trusted them to prophecy his word. But to deliver the word of salvation about his son? Noooooo. That's just not defensible. No matter how people twist the scripture to think it is. 

Paul died for holding to his teaching the truth. What a horrible disrespect to twist his words to show disrespect toward women who were created in the image and likeness of God just as men were. God has a lesser inferior image and likeness that he shared with that female creation. That's what men like you describe are hoping to teach. 

Balderdash! 

 

Edited June 1, 2017 by SchmaltzWeasel

[Willa]

I am not able to post a link where none is given me.  Vine is downloaded onto my E-Sword, from which I copy and paste, and just give VINE(Expository dictionary of New Testament Words) as my source.  I cannot provide links to my E-Sword. I did try to give the name of the author in each case at the top after the Greek word.  The article you referred to gave no links to Vine either.  His work may be public domain, but he should at least give a reference to Vine as the author when he quotes from the book. 

Likewise for the Greek Word Study Dictionary  by Spiros Zodiates. I have the hard copies of both but it is much easier to use E-Sword.  Thayer is quoted in the OP.  I never use Thayer anymore because it is for classical Greek but the Bible was written in Koine Greek.  Sorry I was unable to provide links for you.   Personally I could never call any of our deacons "ministers".  Ministers are usually referred to as ministers of the Gospel, which is not a primary function of deacons even though Stephen also preached a hard message to the Jews before he was killed.. Deacons may visit the sick and minister to the needs of others in that way but that is one of the things that elders usually do..  The title and ordination is deacon, not minister.   

Some churches are so small that they don't have both deacons and elders.  Some call their pastors, elders.  

Personally, I would not attend a church that had a female pastor in charge.   The exception would be Qnts, who used to be on our forums.

[Absolem]

She obviously filled an important role as having authority over the younger and fellow women whom she taught and trained. This has to be the case because Paul describes that role for the women son of course she was a minister like the rest but to whom God would have.

[SchmaltzWeasel]

1 hour ago, Absolem said:

She obviously filled an important role as having authority over the younger and fellow women whom she taught and trained. This has to be the case because Paul describes that role for the women son of course she was a minister like the rest but to whom God would have.

Please show the verse where it states that which I put in bold in your remarks above. 

[Absolem]

Titus 2:4

Phoebe must have exemplified the role to earn the title she had.

[PlanetChee]

15 hours ago, gdemoss said:

I was once on the side that you present.  I dogmatically fought on the side of equality between women and men.  I used every ounce of material against those that opposed.  I found out I was wrong.  Not because someone on a forum argued truth from a scriptural viewpoint or from sitting in a pew in church.  My learning came from practical experience ministering unto people.  The ministry was never about who has authority or who is greater or lesser.  It was geared towarded simply working with people, both men and women, seeking to bring them unto a personal relationship with God.  Practical experience of working with both men and women convicted me of biblical truth.  I have experienced first hand gen 3:16 where it is womens curse to desire to rule over their husbands but authority was given to men.  I don't expect you to budge one bit away from your belief in this thread but rather use the occasion to place the truth before people so that those who can receive it do.  I have great sympathy for women because of that curse and what it does to whole households.  It is easy for deceivers to enter into houses and lead away women who are laden with sin as it is written.  Truly women are tge weaker vessel and easier to be deceived.  I don't say that to be little or look down upon but simply accept it as truth because it has proven true in every case I have encountered in ministry.  Women fight for superiority under the guise of equality.  Been that way since the beginning.  

Which parts of God are inferior? Please be specific.