Questions for a Frank and Open Discussion about Cults & Speaking in Tongues

[enoob57]

7 minutes ago, Yowm said:

I'm not saying it happened at all. I was refuting saved1, who said tongues had ceased. My point is, if tongues had ceased so had knowledge.

I believe those will cease at our glorification, do you?

I'm saying the text doesn't give a time frame at all about the ceasation of any of these... but your saying if one is gone so will be the others and it's not there in the text nor in the surrounding passages!  So I again am asking where do you get the authority to believe in your suggested time frame?

[SavedOnebyGrace]

9 minutes ago, Yowm said:

I'm not saying it happened at all. I was refuting saved1, who said tongues had ceased. My point is, if tongues had ceased so had knowledge.

I believe those will cease at our glorification, do you?

If tongues was a known language, they had not ceased.  That was my point.

[enoob57]

Just now, Yowm said:

Why don't you question saved1? He's the one who says tongues has already ceased. I didn't.

evidently we are not connection in thought hear   best to let it drop ...

[SavedOnebyGrace]

40 minutes ago, Yowm said:

Had me fooled. Sorry.

I'm fighting hand tremors again today so I may have lost my train of thought as I was fighting my keyboard, and finally resulting in 1 finger typing while disabling my touchpad.  I had you confused because I was taking things I've heard over the years on both sides of the argument.

You have Pastor John MacArthur saying tongues have ceased when the perfect arrived, I presume the Bible.  And you have people of the "Toronto Blessing" doing all sorts of things attributing that to a move of the Holy Spirit.  My personal view is fallible and should not count for anything.  But since you brought it up, I believe for the most part the people speaking in tongues today are not speaking directly to God.  But God knows what's in their heart.  Most references to tongues in the NT can be interpreted to known languages.  Only the verse which speaks of the tongues of angels sticks out to me.  Why would we speak to God in the tongues of angels?  We worship Him in Spirit and in Truth.  The Angelic tongue may not be coming from God, specifically the Holy Spirit.  I don't know and I hope I can glean some useful guidance from this back and forth discussion. 

I believe I spoke in tongues for about 5 years.  I now have doubts this is true, but I do have a couple of instances I cannot explain.  Sometimes I feel the presence of the Holy Spirit as I felt an angel or the Holy Spirit's presence saving me from physical death, and overhearing the testimony of a biker/gunsmith at Silver Dollar City.  These instances happened to me and are real and I treasure them.  I could also feel the presence of the Holy Spirit during worship.  That's what my wife misses most about moving to Indiana, but we both don't want to get into another mega church like the one we left.

Bottom Line: Some may experience a true manifestation as exampled in Acts.  But not everyone who claims to be speaking in tongues really is.  That could even be good Christians who are just caught up in the moment.  Distrust TV evangelists constantly asking for money.

[SavedOnebyGrace]

1 hour ago, Yowm said:

What matter would it make if tongues was both a known language and/or angelic?

I'm going to have to think on that awhile.

[SavedOnebyGrace]

Quote

The Toronto Blessing and the Laughing Revival*

By Gary E. Gilley  

Something happened on January 10, 1994, at a Vineyard Church near the Pearson International Airport in Toronto that was unique in the history of professing Christianity. While some point back to somewhat similar phenomena during the Welsh Revivals, Cane Ridge Revivals (1800-1801), Charles Finney (1800s), and even the Great Awakening (1734-47), all of these pale in comparison to the claims of the "Laughing Revival" that received its energy, if not origin, on that cold day in Canada.  

Supporters say that on this occasion the Holy Spirit was poured out on that small congregation, resulting in spontaneous, uncontrollable laughter. Thus began a "revival" that continues to this day and has impacted churches throughout the world. Hundreds of thousands of visitors, including thousands of pastors, have attended the services at the Toronto Airport Vineyard (now called the Airport Christian Fellowship) in hopes of catching and transporting the spirit of this revival. And it seems to be working. Churches across the globe are claiming similar experiences, which, in addition to "holy laughter," include shaking, making animal noises, swooning, and being stuck in "Holy Ghost glue." It has been reported by some that up to seven thousand churches in Great Britain alone have experienced something similar to the Holy Laughter Revival.

Rodney Howard-Browne, a South African minister associated with the Word-Faith Movement, is the recognized "Father" of holy laughter. He claims to have had his first experience with these phenomena in 1979, while challenging God to "touch me" or Howard-Browne was going "to come up there and touch You." God apparently responded by causing him to feel as if his body was on fire and he broke out in uncontrollable laughter (see Howard-Browne's book, The Touch of God). In 1989, while preaching in New York State, his congregation fell under the same power. Soon Howard-Browne began influencing others, but on a small scale. Then, while preaching at Carpenter's Home Church in Lakeland, Florida, in 1993, laughter in the Spirit once again broke out bringing Howard-Browne out of obscurity. One of his disciples was Pastor Randy Clark from St. Louis, Missouri. 

It was Clark (who had already experienced strange phenomenon in his church) who preached the revival sermon in Toronto that ignited the whole movement. The Revival has since spread like wildfire, especially in Vineyard and Charismatic circles, and in recent years has penetrated all kinds of denominations. Howard-Browne, who continues to be a leader of this movement, calls himself a "Holy Ghost Bartender," who thus dispenses the "new wine" of joy that leads to people being "drunk in the Spirit." He claims to find the Biblical base for his teaching in Acts 2, at the day of Pentecost. But a careful study of that text does not reveal anything like what is happening today. The apostles were not laughing uncontrollably, they were not barking like dogs, they were not stuck to the floor in Holy Ghost glue, they were not being "slain in the Spirit." They simply preached the gospel and their listeners heard it in their own language.

Recently, the Association of Vineyard Fellowships expelled the Airport Vineyard Fellowship from its association for "going over the edge." Even the Vineyard has recognized that the Revival has gone too far and is now trying to distance itself from it. What criteria the Vineyard could possibly use to do this is unknown. A criterion unused by either group is found in Isaiah 8:16,19-20:  

Bind up the testimony, seal the law among my disciples … And when they say to you, "Consult the mediums and the spiritists who whisper and mutter," should not a people consult their God? Should they consult the dead on behalf of the living? To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because they have no dawn. 

John Arnott, the pastor of the Airport Vineyard Fellowship, tells his followers that they are not to even entertain the thought that they might become involved in any kind of counterfeit revival. Yet, the apostle John warned us to Test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world (I John 4:1). 

Wild Experiences Coming Out of Toronto

One of Howard-Browne's books has a section titled "Holy Ghost Glue." In it he recounts the story of a wealthy woman who got "stuck" in the spirit. As Howard-Browne tells it:

"She was lying there from noon until 1:30 … At 1:30, she tried to get up. She wanted to get up. She couldn't. All she could do was flap her hands. So she was lying there flapping away -- flap, flap, flap, flap … 2:30, 3:30, 4:30 … At 4:30 the woman was still saying, 'I can't get up. I'm stuck to the floor.'"

She flapped so long that, as Howard-Browne put it, he ended up "walking out on the Holy Spirit":

 "I turned to the pastor and said, 'Look, I haven't had either breakfast or lunch. It's 4:30. I'm not stuck and you're not stuck. These people are going to stay here with her, so let's go have a meal before the night service.' The ushers told us later that at 6 o'clock the woman finally peeled herself off the carpet. Then it took her an hour to crawl from the center of the church auditorium to the side wall. She had been stuck to the floor for six hours!" (Manifesting the Holy Spirit, pp. 26,27).

Another experience from John Arnott:

 "When Randy Clark preached at the Airport Vineyard, the pastor claimed that 'almost 80 percent of the people were on the floor. … It was like an explosion. We saw people literally being knocked off their feet by the Spirit of God. … Others shook and jerked. Some danced, some laughed. Some lay on the floor as if dead for hours. People cried and shouted'" (The Father's Blessing, by John Arnott, pp. 71-72).

Prophecies and Revelations 

In a message titled "Receiving the Spirit's Power," revival leader Carol Arnott (John Arnott's wife) claims she had a conversation with the Holy Spirit. During the dialogue, the spirit that spoke with her communicated sorrow over being separated from Jesus:  

"'You know, the Father, and Jesus and I have been together for all of eternity. But when Jesus went back to heaven to be with God the Father, I came to earth.' And He said, 'I am so lonely for Jesus.' He said, 'So that when people really, really love Jesus, and really honor Him, and really worship Him,' He said, 'I love to be around those kinds of people.' … He misses Jesus, and He misses the Father" (Counterfeit Revival, p. 111).

Rarely is the self-gratifying orientation of "Counterfeit Revivalists" more prominent than in John Arnott's book The Father's Blessing. In a section titled "Jesus Wants a Love Affair with You," Arnott describes how Jesus appeared to a woman and fulfilled all her fantasies. Jesus laughed with the woman as together they ran around with arms stretched out like airplanes; Jesus lay on the ground with the woman and played Legos; then Jesus played with her hair and met her deepest needs and desires (pp. 20-22).

 Bizarre claims from The Father's Blessings

(1) A delightful woman came to Toronto from Europe. She came from an extremely theological and intellectual background -- "too much thinking," she said. While under God's power she had a vision. Much to her surprise, Jesus took her through events of her childhood, and they relived them together.

This woman used to play soccer, and Jesus told her gently that she took the glory for herself. So she wept and repented, then they played soccer together. She laughed and laughed at His long robe, then she asked Him to be the goalkeeper. He was so strong, He knocked all the balls away. But then He let her have a goal, and she laughed some more.

Then Jesus told her she always acted like a boy. She said this was true because her father wanted a boy, and it hurt her. But Jesus showed her that He wanted her to be a girl. She explains that she saw, like a movie before her eyes, the yard she used to play in as a child. She had a pretty flowered dress on, and they danced together, and her hair blew in the wind. Jesus told her, "You know, forever -- I wanted you as a girl." And she cried and cried. "It was so wonderful because He planned me to be a girl. It was so beautiful."

Another evening Jesus showed her herself as a baby, and He tickled her. She laughed and laughed, and baby noises came out of her. Another time, she was one year old. She was holding a toy, but she couldn't play with it because she didn't know how. And she looked into the eyes of Jesus and asked Him to explain how to play with this toy. And He took time and told her (pp. 123-124).

(2) Carol (Arnott's wife) has often prayed for me (John Arnott), and I would stand there trying to receive from God, yet not feeling anything. I would say, "Honey, is the Holy Spirit flowing in?"
She would say, "Yes, just receive." Then she would say, "Whoops, where did you go?"
"What do you mean?"
"Well, you went somewhere, and God's anointing for you came back on me."
Some of you who minister know what that feels like. When you are praying for someone else and they do not receive, the anointing comes back to you and you just about fall over -- either you or the person who is helping you.
I asked Carol why I didn't receive, and she told me that I was trying to stay in control. I argued with her, but she was more convincing: "You will not surrender; you will not give yourself to God" (p. 125).

(3) Carol Arnott gives this vision, which could have been taken right out of a Disney movie. -- The scene changed, and I was walking, holding His arm. I kept looking around thinking, "Gee, I don't recognize this place. I wonder where I am? This doesn't look familiar at all." Then I happened to look down, and I thought, "Oh, it's gold! Oh, my goodness, I am walking on the streets of gold. This is heaven! I'm the bride of Christ. I am marrying Jesus." This is the wedding day. Lord, this is incredible. I was standing in an open spot when Jesus walked up and said, "Carol, may I have the first dance?" I thought, "Oh, no, I can't dance. My wedding veil is too long." As soon as I thought that, out of nowhere came cardinals and blue jays -- all these little birds -- and they picked up my veil, and I danced with Jesus (pp. 164-165). 

(4) John Arnott writes: It is no coincidence that we have seen people prophetically acting like lions, oxen, eagles and even warriors. In Steve Witt's church in St. Johns, New Brunswick, I saw all four of those manifestations happening at the same time -- the ox, the eagle, the lion and the man (warrior). The lion and eagle manifestations accompanied prophesying. The man who was acting out the part of the warrior had both hands gripped together around the hilt of a sword, and he was swinging it. These warrior actions give the observer a real feel of battlefield action. The people who were doing this were mostly credible pastors or leaders. I was astonished but sensed the awesome presence of God. 

One lady who played the keyboard and weighed about 115 pounds was on all fours, snorting and pawing the ground like an angry ox or bull. It was obvious that she was surprised and a bit frightened by what was happening, but at the same time she seemed determined to follow the Spirit's leading (p. 178).

It is almost impossible to keep up on the bizarre claims coming out of Toronto. The Toronto Airport Christian Fellowship has an excellent Web site, however, complete with live and taped videos of their services and the most recent manifestations. Most recently, the church is claiming that many at their meetings, both at home and in South Africa, are receiving gold fillings in their teeth!

Perhaps a quote by Rodney Howard-Browne might help us understand how and why "Christians" can be so gullible:

"I'd rather be in a church where the devil and the flesh are manifesting than in a church where nothing is happening because people are too afraid to manifest anything. Every time there is a move of God, a few people will get excited, go overboard, and get in the flesh. Other believers will get upset, saying that couldn't be of God. Don't worry about it either. Rejoice because at least something is happening … If someone comes in the meeting, rolls around on the floor, laughs in the Holy Spirit, and does it in the flesh, at least he's not getting drunk or taking dope" (No Laughing Matter, p. 66). 

In contrast, A.W. Tozer takes the Biblical position:

"Any of it [teaching] that is good is in the Word of God, and any that is not in the Word of God is not good. I am a Bible Christian and if an archangel with a wingspread as broad as a constellation shining like the sun were to come and offer me some new truth, I'd ask him for a reference. If he could not show me where it is found in the Bible, I would bow him out and say, 'I'm awfully sorry, you don't bring any references with you'" (Counterfeit Revival, p. 67).

* This report has been excerpted and or adapted from an article by the same name in the October 1999, Think on These Things, Southern View Chapel, Springfield, IL, Gary Gilley, Pastor.

There are no links on this post but if you check out YouTube, I'm fairly you can find video of some of their services.  I personally do not see the work of the Holy Spirit here.  Is this what the Charismatic Movement come to?  A search for higher highs like drunks and drug addicts?  Or am I just too old to understand.  Does this movement qualify as the beginnings of a cult?

[SavedOnebyGrace]

 

3 hours ago, Yowm said:

What matter would it make if tongues was both a known language and/or angelic?

I'm going to have to think on that awhile.

A known language could be identified as such, i.e. a known language.  No one has heard angelic language to be able to identify it.  Paul is not known to have heard the angels singing or worshipping God.  It's not recorded in the New Testament.  So I think it is more likely Paul was speaking metaphorically when speaking about the language of angels.  I don't believe the angels are singing and worshipping God in Greek, Aramaic, Hebrew, Latin, or any other Earth-based language.  We don't know how they sound, but I suspect, it is beautiful.  That in itself makes me think today's speaking in tongues is rare.  People don't seem to be drawn to the ministers of truth because of the language they speak.

[SavedOnebyGrace]

3 minutes ago, Yowm said:

How would a person be personally edified by tongues in a known language unless he was his own interpreter?

I've seen that happen in services frequently.

3 minutes ago, Yowm said:

For one who speaks in a tongue speaks not to men but to God; for no one understands him, but he utters mysteries in the Spirit.
(1Co 14:2)
The one who speaks in a tongue builds up himself, but the one who prophesies builds up the church.
(1Co 14:4)

It just seems there are two types  of tongues, 'known language' type and some other 'angelic' or whatever you want to call it. (v.2)

You should be more knowledgeable than me on this matter, though I have received the baptism of the Holy Spirit and have had several experiences', I have never spoken in tongues.

Quote

1 Corinthians 14:2

For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue
Or with tongues, as some copies and the Ethiopic version read: Dr. Lightfoot thinks, that the Hebrew tongue, which was become a dead language, and understood but by few, is here meant, and that not without reason; seeing the public prayers, preaching, and singing of psalms among the Jews, were in this languages ^F24; in imitation of whom, such ministers, who had the gift of speaking this language, read the Scriptures, preached, prayed, and sung psalms in it, which were no ways to the edification of the people, who understood it not; upon which account the apostle recommends prophesying, praying, and singing, in a language that was understood: otherwise he

speaketh not unto men;
to the understanding, profit, and edification of men: but unto God: to his praise and glory, and he only knowing, who knows all languages, and every word in the tongue what is said; excepting himself, unless there should be any present capable of interpreting:

for no man understandeth him:
or "heareth him": that is, hears him, so as to understand him; he may hear a sound, but he cannot tell the meaning of it, and so it is of no use and advantage to him:

howbeit in the Spirit he speaketh mysteries;
though under the influence and by the extraordinary gift of the Spirit he has, and to his own Spirit and understanding, and with great affection and devotion within himself, he speaks of the deep things of God, and the mysteries of his grace, the most glorious truths of the Gospel, yet the meaning of his voice and words not being known, he is a barbarian to them that hear him; and though what he delivers are truths of the greatest importance, they are a mere jargon to others, being unintelligible.

 

---

FOOTNOTES:

F24 Vid. Gloss. in T. Bab. Beracot, fol. 3. 1. & in Yoma, fol. 20. 2.

1 Corinthians 14:3

But he that prophesieth
Preaches, prays, or sings, in a language understood by the common people:

speaketh unto men to edification;
to the building of them up in Christ, and on their most holy faith, so that they grow up as an holy temple to the Lord: and exhortation; to the more vigorous exercise of grace, and the more cheerful and fervent discharge of duty:

and comfort;
of distressed minds, either through the temptations of Satan, or divine desertions, or inward corruptions, or outward afflictions; for all which ends and purposes the Scriptures are written, and gifts are bestowed on men to explain them; and which ends are answered when God gives a blessing to the word; but can never be expected, if delivered in a language not understood. This bears hard upon the Papists performing any part of divine worship in a language unintelligible to the common people.

1 Corinthians 14:4

He that speaketh its an unknown tongue
Be it the Hebrew language, or any other; some copies, and the Ethiopic version, read, "with tongues":

edifieth himself;
his heart may be warmed, his affections raised, his devotion kept up, and he be in a very spiritual and comfortable frame, knowing and understanding what he himself says:

but he that prophesieth, edifieth the church:
which is the great end of the Gospel ministry, which is for the edifying the body of the church: wherefore that which tends to the edification of more, even the whole church, must be preferable to that, which at most can only edify one, and that the speaker himself.

 

[Behold]

6 hours ago, enoob57 said:

 

A

2 Peter 2:20 (KJV)

[20] For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

 

 

-

Yes, a backslider is in for a rough time, until they turn around and again "go with God".

Till then, "ouch".

[Willa]

1. I believe that name it and claim it is a different gospel than Paul preached.  I never give to get, but give as God directs me with not thought of getting anything in return.  He does bless me for my obedience but not monetarily.  His provision is sufficient of us to get by with food and clothing and a roof over our heads, plus a little to share with others in need.  We seek first His Kingdom and His righteousness and trust His to provide our needs.  We alway pay our tithes, which belong to God, first and live on what is left over.  

2. I believe the "prosperity message" is worshipping another god.  We are told to be content with such things as we have, and that seeking wealth --the love of money--is idolatry.  

3. ?

4.  I only know that when I pray in the Spirit it is always a prayer to God.   Nowhere in the Bible can I fine it as a message to man.  When I pray to God in utterances I don't understand it expresses the deep love and adoration, thanksgiving and praise that I have for God and I cannot express in words.  It is no longer bottled up within me.  And when I pray for others not knowing how to pray, God also gives me this expression.  Paul said that he prayed in tongues more than all of them but would rather speak in a known tongue when in the congregation.  So I pray this way in private.  But to sing in the Spirit in beautiful harmony is a real blessing.   Prophecy is directed toward people.  Exhortation is directed toward people.  Toungues is always directed as prayer to God.  Do a Bible study on it.  

5. How?  It was not an emotional experience.  I just spoke the syllables that came to mind.  I was driving in a car at the time.

6.benefit?  This seems to be the only gift for individuals and not for the church.  It builds up the speaker by directing out attention to God and by praying the things on our hearts in accord with God's will.  When we praise Him and bless Him we become aware of how big He is and able to protect and provide for us, as well as heal and give us grace to overcome our situations.  We enter His Presence and see Him through prayer in His glory love and power.  Sometimes we respond to these things emotionally as it is overwhelming.  So I more frequently speak of Praying in the Spirit rather than speaking in tongues, because such speaking is in fact a prayer to God.  If the "interpretation" is otherwise it is in fact a prophecy, and not the interpretation of the prayer itself.  So the benefit to the church is in intercession for the saints, and in bringing His joy and love into the congregation to lift up those in distress.  Romans 8

Rom 8:26 AMP  So too the [Holy] Spirit comes to our aid and bears us up in our weakness; for we do not know what prayer to offer nor how to offer it worthily as we ought, but the Spirit Himself goes to meet our supplication and pleads in our behalf with unspeakable yearnings and groanings too deep for utterance. Rom 8:27  ESV And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.  1Co 14:2  For one who speaks in a tongue speaks not to men but to God; for no one understands him, but he utters mysteries in the Spirit.  Eph 6:18  praying at all times in the Spirit, with all prayer and supplication. To that end keep alert with all perseverance, making supplication for all the saints,  Jde 1:20  But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit,

My opinion.  Not doctrine.