Revelation, Sequenced by the Actual Events

[iamlamad]

6 hours ago, wingnut- said:

 

14 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Ad libing again! There is not even one word that hints that group too large to number has been martyred. They were raptured, not martyred!

 

Once again you are the one guilty of that.  Please provide the scripture that states the great multitude was raptured, and the statement that they come out of the tribulation DOES NOT say that.  This is where you are getting creative.

 

Neither does it even hint that they were martyred. Does it not make sense that there will be more saints caught up that saints martyred? You know it does. I know you will ignore this, but John has not yet, in his narrative even started the 70th week, much less arrived at the second half where there will be martyrs from the GT. Why then would ANYONE assume when John wrote that they come out of GT that it MUST BE those days that Jesus spoke of that will not begin appearing in heaven until chapter 15?

The fact is, John is only telling us that at the time of the rapture, there will be GT in the world. There is NOW in certainly countries. How can tribulation be any greater for the martyrs? 

Since I know from 1 Thes.5 that the rapture will come just before the 6th seal, then it makes perfect sense that John would see them in heaven soon after. So I am NOT ad libing. It is one thing to just read scripture and repeat it. It is another thing to understand the intent of the Author.

[iamlamad]

7 hours ago, wingnut- said:

12 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Sure you do. You are guessing that the gathering in Matthew 24 is the rapture.

 

I'm not guessing at anything, the word harpazo is used there, and that is where the word rapture is derived from, the latin word for harpazo is rapturo.  Nice try, but you are talking in circles.

A gathering is a gathering and it would be very logical to use the same word for any kind of gathering. I ask you, what is God to do if He chooses to have a different gathering from the rapture. No matter who writes it, people will pounce on it and declare it is Paul's gathering. It takes MORE that just one word the same in two different verses. Everything about each verse and context must be the same. It is simply impossible for the Matthew 24 gathering to be Paul's gathering for the simple fact that the timing is off.

Just so you know, the words SUN and MOON appear in the sign shown in Matthew 24, and at the 6th seal. But they are NOT the same sign.

[iamlamad]

7 hours ago, wingnut- said:

Again I'm not guessing anything about Revelation 19, it is simply you not understanding the timing as I see it and then confusing your theory with what I believe.  You are guessing that I believe these things are just listed, and you are incorrect about that as well.

What I know is, your theory simply does not fit what is written. The supper will take place in heaven. That is a given. And it is NOT the feast of the birds. It is for the BRIDE. It will come after the ceremony you imagine is a metaphor. I understand as it is written it does not fit your theory. I also understand you have to do something about that.

Why not just leave it as written: there will be SOME KIND of ceremony right at the time when John tells us the time has come. And after that the Bride will enjoy a wedding feast. It is what is written. Why not form a theory that FITS what is written? Is that too novel and idea?

Suppose for a moment that is is TRUTH just as is written and in the order it is written: that there will be some kind of ceremony and then a supper in heaven. If this were truth, would it destroy your theory? Would it conflict with other scriptures in your mind?

7 hours ago, wingnut- said:

Again, I'm not guessing, and I referred you to what Paul wrote because he gives a definitive order that John also is clear about.  There is only one resurrection of God's people in the end times, you insist on penciling in things that don't appear.

 

I Corinthians 15:23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.

 

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

 

The two witnesses can only be a part of this resurrection because it is the only one for God's people, the resurrection after the millennium is for the dead, as in non-believers.

Paul is only speaking of Christ and the church. He is not speaking about any other groups. To say these other groups do not exist just because Paul did not mention them in this passage is silly.

And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them:   So WHO is on those thrones? This is the first group John saw: the CHURCH that has been raptured. They were resurrected just before the 6th seal.

 Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image:   This is the second group John saw. They are those who the Beast has beheaded.  They will be resurrected at the 7th vial. Note carefully BOTH THESE GROUPS live and reign with Christ, who we know was resurrected way before the church.

So what you call "the FIRST resurrection includes ALL THESE. Thanks for bring up this scripture. It proves my point. It is the most honorable resurrection. Indeed, it WILL come before the second death resurrection.  You imagine it is a one time thing. It is NOT. All the righteous will not resurrect at the same time. Jesus' own resurrection proves this.

7 hours ago, wingnut- said:

 

12 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Yet you imagine that the two witness's resurrection is the rapture.

 

It has to be, there is only one more resurrection, any other theory must add a resurrection that neither Paul or John wrote about.

No, it certainly does NOT have to be. You are looking at these scriptures incorrectly. You imagine adding a resurrection is necessary for a pretrib theory, when the intent of the Author is that all the righteous, no matter when they are resurrected will fit into this one most honorable resurrection.

Jesus' resurrection certainly cannot be a part of the second death resurrection. There are ONLY TWO resurrections listed. Therefore Jesus' resurrection MUST be placed in either the most honorable or the second death one.

OF COURSE His resurrection was the firstfruits (this word alone proves the church is in the same resurrection He was in) of the one and only resurrection for the righteous. The church will be next in the VERY SAME resurrection. You understand, when "FIRSTfruits" is mentioned, it goes without saying there will be SECONDfruits and third and so forth: meaning the church.

7 hours ago, wingnut- said:

 

13 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Wrong again! Only the elders rose. It only tells us many were raised.

 

And here you are guessing again.  The passage does not say only the elders rose, it says many, and 24 does not qualify as many over the span of roughly 4000 years.

 

Sorry, not guessing: it is revealed knowledge. I can't help it if you don't believe it. But if you wish to imagine this is the entire Old Covenant righteous being raised, go ahead. But did the mountains shake down into the earth? Did the islands disappear? You don't understand what a great shaking it will take when God brings together those particles of bodies from before the flood. And there Is a hint that it is the elders. John saw 24 people in the throne room.

 

Sorry, but we are SO FAR APART in our beliefs it seems it is accomplishing very little to continue.  I will probably be very busy next week.

[wingnut-]

37 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Sorry, but we are SO FAR APART in our beliefs it seems it is accomplishing very little to continue.  I will probably be very busy next week.

 

I am unable to engage in a serious discussion with you following your latest responses.  Best wishes to you.

[WholeyGod'schild]

On ‎6‎/‎17‎/‎2017 at 0:11 PM, wingnut- said:

 

Well, I think the confusion comes in from misunderstanding who these people are, and how they got to heaven.  So, take a look at what happened prior to this.

 

Revelation 6:11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.

 

This is at the fifth seal, is it time for the wedding?  They have their white robes at this point, but clearly it is not time yet.  So if you are inferring that because the great multitude is wearing white robes that it is time for the wedding, then you have to address this.  Are there multiple weddings?

 

 

Sure, let's look at this particular verse, and compare it to what Paul tells us.

 

Revelation 19:14  The armies of heaven, dressed in fine linen, white and pure, follow Him on white horses.

 

I Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

 

The deceased follow Him out of heaven, those who are alive and remain meet them in the air, not so complicated.  Paul is clear that He is bringing with Him those who sleep in Jesus only, that means dead people.

 

 

As I already addressed, saints get their white robes as early as the fifth seal, and clearly that is prior to the wedding, so the white robes do not signify the wedding, they merely signify those who will be part of the bride.  It also does not state that we have supper anywhere in Revelation, that is something pre-trib likes to read into the passage, but it is simply not there.

 

Revelation 19:9 Then he said to me, “Write: ‘Blessed are those who are called to the marriage supper of the Lamb!’” And he said to me, “These are the true sayings of God.”

 

See, it says blessed are those who are called to it, nothing about it having taken place, and that is because it hasn't happened yet.  The supper is not for us to eat, it is for the birds.

 

Revelation 19:17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, “Come and gather together for the supper of the great God, 18 that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, both small and great.”

 

The marriage and the marriage supper are metaphors.  The marriage is a metaphor of the head joining the body, the two become one, there are no marriages like earthly marriages anymore, it is a spiritual marriage.

 

Matthew 22:30  For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels of God in heaven.

 

Mark 12:25  For when they rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven.

 

People like to read these two verses as though they reference eternity, but that is not what they say.  In the resurrection, and when they rise from the dead, NO MARRIAGE as in earthly marriage, it is spiritual, hence being told we are like angels, spiritual beings.

God bless

 

Wow!

Sir I don't know what to tell you. your trying so hard to prove your point you are twisting scripture and calling God's words metaphors. please read what you what you wrote and scriptures you put together, that in turn makes zero sense.

Taken verbatim from what you posted:

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Revelation 19:9 Then he said to me, “Write: ‘Blessed are those who are called to the marriage supper of the Lamb!’” And he said to me, “These are the true sayings of God.”

 

See, it says blessed are those who are called to it, nothing about it having taken place, and that is because it hasn't happened yet.  The supper is not for us to eat, it is for the birds.

 

Revelation 19:17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, “Come and gather together for the supper of the great God, 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

so how does the Marriage supper of the lamb have metaphor or have a meaning of feeding birds? "these are true sayings of God" it doesn't say these are metaphors or parables of God.

The marriage supper is for the children of God not birds. And Jesus said in Matthew 26:29 29I tell you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until the day when I drink it anew with you in My Father’s” kingdom.   Where did he say this at? he said it at his last supper with his disciples, it wasn't a metaphor.

Now again I tell you God has promised us that he will return for us, and as a time no man knows when he returns.

Matthew 25:8-13

 ⁸ And the foolish said to the wise, ‘Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out.’ ⁹ But the wise answered, saying, ‘Since there will not be enough for us and for you, go rather to the dealers and buy for yourselves.’ ¹⁰ And while they were going to buy, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the marriage feast, and the door was shut. ¹¹ Afterward the other virgins came also, saying, ‘Lord, lord, open to us.’ ¹² But he answered, ‘Truly, I say to you, I do not know you.’ ¹³ Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour.

no man knows the day or hour. so if we are to remain till the end and watch Jesus return on a white horse well, we will see the day and hour, we will know the time, we will see the proverbial thief walking up the drive way (Matthew 24:43 43But understand this: If the owner of the house had known in which watch of the night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into.) so no Jesus return will be sudden and unexpected as mentioned in multiple scriptures, multiple times.

now to your claim the returning army will be the dead in Christ ( The deceased follow Him out of heaven, those who are alive and remain meet them in the air, not so complicated.  Paul is clear that He is bringing with Him those who sleep in Jesus only, that means dead people.)

please tell me how the dead in Christ are riding out with out the saints when the word of God says:

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 15By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. 17After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.

it says nothing about the dead in Christ riding in when the shout of the Lord and the trump of God. in fact it says the said shout and trump is when the dead in Christ will rise, then the remaining (the ones still alive) are caught up with them to forever be with our king and savoir. but note it lacks one sentence, scripture, reference, assumption, or inference to Jesus riding out on his white horse during this gathering. a matter of fact it says the same way he left he will return  Acts 1:11 11“Men of Galilee, they said, “Why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen Him go into heaven.” 

Unless I am mistaken, he didn't leave on a white horse when he Ascended into heaven. Luke 21:28 28When these things begin to happen, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.”

For let the Word of God stand and speak for itself. please remain true to the word of God. 

Be blessed

 

[iamlamad]

3 hours ago, WholeyGod'schild said:

Wow!

Sir I don't know what to tell you. your trying so hard to prove your point you are twisting scripture and calling God's words metaphors. please read what you what you wrote and scriptures you put together, that in turn makes zero sense.

Taken verbatim from what you posted:

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Revelation 19:9 Then he said to me, “Write: ‘Blessed are those who are called to the marriage supper of the Lamb!’” And he said to me, “These are the true sayings of God.”

 

See, it says blessed are those who are called to it, nothing about it having taken place, and that is because it hasn't happened yet.  The supper is not for us to eat, it is for the birds.

 

Revelation 19:17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, “Come and gather together for the supper of the great God, 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

so how does the Marriage supper of the lamb have metaphor or have a meaning of feeding birds? "these are true sayings of God" it doesn't say these are metaphors or parables of God.

The marriage supper is for the children of God not birds. And Jesus said in Matthew 26:29 29I tell you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until the day when I drink it anew with you in My Father’s” kingdom.   Where did he say this at? he said it at his last supper with his disciples, it wasn't a metaphor.

Now again I tell you God has promised us that he will return for us, and as a time no man knows when he returns.

Matthew 25:8-13

 ⁸ And the foolish said to the wise, ‘Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out.’ ⁹ But the wise answered, saying, ‘Since there will not be enough for us and for you, go rather to the dealers and buy for yourselves.’ ¹⁰ And while they were going to buy, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the marriage feast, and the door was shut. ¹¹ Afterward the other virgins came also, saying, ‘Lord, lord, open to us.’ ¹² But he answered, ‘Truly, I say to you, I do not know you.’ ¹³ Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour.

no man knows the day or hour. so if we are to remain till the end and watch Jesus return on a white horse well, we will see the day and hour, we will know the time, we will see the proverbial thief walking up the drive way (Matthew 24:43 43But understand this: If the owner of the house had known in which watch of the night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into.) so no Jesus return will be sudden and unexpected as mentioned in multiple scriptures, multiple times.

now to your claim the returning army will be the dead in Christ ( The deceased follow Him out of heaven, those who are alive and remain meet them in the air, not so complicated.  Paul is clear that He is bringing with Him those who sleep in Jesus only, that means dead people.)

please tell me how the dead in Christ are riding out with out the saints when the word of God says:

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 15By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. 17After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.

it says nothing about the dead in Christ riding in when the shout of the Lord and the trump of God. in fact it says the said shout and trump is when the dead in Christ will rise, then the remaining (the ones still alive) are caught up with them to forever be with our king and savoir. but note it lacks one sentence, scripture, reference, assumption, or inference to Jesus riding out on his white horse during this gathering. a matter of fact it says the same way he left he will return  Acts 1:11 11“Men of Galilee, they said, “Why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen Him go into heaven.” 

Unless I am mistaken, he didn't leave on a white horse when he Ascended into heaven. Luke 21:28 28When these things begin to happen, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.”

For let the Word of God stand and speak for itself. please remain true to the word of God. 

Be blessed

 

Good post, WholeyGod'sChild!

[wingnut-]

8 hours ago, WholeyGod'schild said:

Wow!

Sir I don't know what to tell you. your trying so hard to prove your point you are twisting scripture and calling God's words metaphors. please read what you what you wrote and scriptures you put together, that in turn makes zero sense.

Taken verbatim from what you posted:

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Revelation 19:9 Then he said to me, “Write: ‘Blessed are those who are called to the marriage supper of the Lamb!’” And he said to me, “These are the true sayings of God.”

 

See, it says blessed are those who are called to it, nothing about it having taken place, and that is because it hasn't happened yet.  The supper is not for us to eat, it is for the birds.

 

Revelation 19:17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, “Come and gather together for the supper of the great God, 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

so how does the Marriage supper of the lamb have metaphor or have a meaning of feeding birds? "these are true sayings of God" it doesn't say these are metaphors or parables of God.

 

Well, those who are called are blessed because they are not part of the slaughter, not that hard to figure out.  The marriage is indeed a metaphor, like most of the book of Revelation.  You are approaching the spiritual from an earthly perspective, at this point the things of the earth are being done away with.  The scripture I posted is not vague about the fact there is no marrying or being given in marriage.

 

Matthew 22:30  For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels of God in heaven.

 

Mark 12:25  For when they rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven.

 

You should really pay attention to what those verses say, because they are the true sayings of God as well.  And I'm not trying to prove anything, I am just pointing out with scripture the error in expecting an earthly ceremony.  Let me ask you this, are the angels getting married at your ceremony?

 

7 hours ago, WholeyGod'schild said:

The marriage supper is for the children of God not birds. And Jesus said in Matthew 26:29 29I tell you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until the day when I drink it anew with you in My Father’s” kingdom.   Where did he say this at? he said it at his last supper with his disciples, it wasn't a metaphor.

 

Revelation 14:17 Then another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, who had power over fire, and he cried with a loud cry to him who had the sharp sickle, saying, “Thrust in your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth, for her grapes are fully ripe.” 19 So the angel thrust his sickle into the earth and gathered the vine of the earth, and threw it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. 20 And the winepress was trampled outside the city, and blood came out of the winepress, up to the horses’ bridles, for one thousand six hundred furlongs.

 

All references to wine are attached to the wrath of God in Revelation, and to the same event where the birds are gathered for the great supper of God.  There is absolutely nothing positive about it other than to be on the right side of this battle.

 

8 hours ago, WholeyGod'schild said:

Now again I tell you God has promised us that he will return for us, and as a time no man knows when he returns.

 

I never said otherwise, this is a non-argument or an attempt at distraction.  However if you are suggesting we will not be able to recognize the time as it approaches I would remind you of this passage.

 

I Thessalonians 5:4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. 5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness.

 

8 hours ago, WholeyGod'schild said:

now to your claim the returning army will be the dead in Christ ( The deceased follow Him out of heaven, those who are alive and remain meet them in the air, not so complicated.  Paul is clear that He is bringing with Him those who sleep in Jesus only, that means dead people.)

please tell me how the dead in Christ are riding out with out the saints when the word of God says:

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 15By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. 17After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.

 

Try the preceding passages to what you just posted for the answer to your question.

 

I Thessalonians 4:13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

 

See there, He is only bringing with Him those who sleep in Jesus as He leaves heaven, those who remain alive meet them in the air as the scripture states.  Unless you subscribe to soul sleep this shouldn't be hard to understand, the departed go to heaven in Spirit upon death, their glorified bodies are what will be raised.

 

8 hours ago, WholeyGod'schild said:

but note it lacks one sentence, scripture, reference, assumption, or inference to Jesus riding out on his white horse during this gathering. a matter of fact it says the same way he left he will return  Acts 1:11 11“Men of Galilee, they said, “Why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen Him go into heaven.” 

 

Agreed, it doesn't say anything about a white horse in that passage, but scripture also does not speak of multiple comings and goings either, yet you have no problem with adding those in there.  I do, based on the fact that Jesus said I will come again, He never once said I will come again, and again, and again, and again.  Revelation 19 says He will ride out on a white horse, and that is good enough for me.

 

8 hours ago, WholeyGod'schild said:

For let the Word of God stand and speak for itself. please remain true to the word of God. 

 

I always do and will continue to do so.

God bless

[n2thelight]

On 6/16/2017 at 8:13 AM, iamlamad said:

There is a "last trump" that will, without much doubt, be the final trumpet blast at the feast of trumpets. That could be ANY YEAR and may be THIS YEAR. This "last" or final trump of Paul is in no way related to John's 7th trumpet in Revelation. Oh, that is the "last" trump of that series.  But Paul was not talking about that series of trumpets in Revelation.

There can't be two last trumps so unless you show me the 8th,the 7th is the last.

[iamlamad]

4 hours ago, n2thelight said:

There can't be two last trumps so unless you show me the 8th,the 7th is the last.

That is a theory, but it will be proved wrong. OF COURSE there can be more than one "last trump." Every year at the feast of trumpets there is a "last trump" that ends the feast.  The series of trumpets in Revelation also has a "last" but John did not call it last, but 7th.

Paul certainly did not have the 7th trumpet on his mind: John had not even seen any trumpet judgments when Paul wrote.

Do you imagine that God will send angels to collect all trumpets from the earth, and then remove the memory of trumpets from all minds, and then prevent any trumpet from ever being created again - all so that the 7th trumpet is Revelation will truly be the "last" ever?  It is very easy to imagine there are trumpets in heaven, and that someone will sound a trumpet during the Millennial reign. But if there is a series of trumpets, someone could call the end one the last one and not mean the last one ever, only the last OF THAT SERIES.