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Dennis1209

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So there's no misunderstanding before I get to my question / comments, the Bible is the infallible, inerrant and  inspired Word of God, that tells us what God wants us to know about Him, history, the creation and His plan of Salvation and redemption. With that said...

When studying scripture, sometimes to get a better understanding of the message that is being delivered, many times I will consult what the early Church Fathers had to say on a subject. In doing so a thought popped into my mind in relationships and information? From just the one example of relationships and discipleships below...

Polycarp (c. 69-156 A,D.) and friend of Ignatius, was a disciple and personal friend of the Apostle John. It's assumed the Apostle John lived a number of years beyond 95 A.D. when the Book of Revelation was written. I believe Polycarp probably was a disciple and friend of John for a number of years, possibly even after John penned Revelation.

Suppose for the sake of argument I was your student and became a close friend? I believe I would have some serious heart to heart discussions with you about our Lord, his apostleship and experiences, and pick your brain to Kingdom come on matters of the Lord, Biblical importance, prophecy and interpretations! Wouldn't that be a rational and logical assumption?

My point is, wouldn't you think the Apostle John might have discussed "off the record", with his disciple friends, his personal thoughts and interpretations on what was divinely given to him to record? And if so, wouldn't you think our early church fathers might have shared those extra nuggets of information with us? So far, just starting to study what our first and second century church fathers have to say in their writings, I haven't come across any extra Biblical nuggets of information the Apostle John may have shared with them. 

Do you suppose I'm chasing rabbit trails, or do you think something might be there?

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Dennis1209 said:

So there's no misunderstanding before I get to my question / comments, the Bible is the infallible, inerrant and  inspired Word of God, that tells us what God wants us to know about Him, history, the creation and His plan of Salvation and redemption.

This is most important of course -  Who Always Tells the Truth ?

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Guest Judas Machabeus
1 hour ago, Dennis1209 said:

So there's no misunderstanding before I get to my question / comments, the Bible is the infallible, inerrant and  inspired Word of God, that tells us what God wants us to know about Him, history, the creation and His plan of Salvation and redemption. With that said...

When studying scripture, sometimes to get a better understanding of the message that is being delivered, many times I will consult what the early Church Fathers had to say on a subject. In doing so a thought popped into my mind in relationships and information? From just the one example of relationships and discipleships below...

Polycarp (c. 69-156 A,D.) and friend of Ignatius, was a disciple and personal friend of the Apostle John. It's assumed the Apostle John lived a number of years beyond 95 A.D. when the Book of Revelation was written. I believe Polycarp probably was a disciple and friend of John for a number of years, possibly even after John penned Revelation.

Suppose for the sake of argument I was your student and became a close friend? I believe I would have some serious heart to heart discussions with you about our Lord, his apostleship and experiences, and pick your brain to Kingdom come on matters of the Lord, Biblical importance, prophecy and interpretations! Wouldn't that be a rational and logical assumption?

My point is, wouldn't you think the Apostle John might have discussed "off the record", with his disciple friends, his personal thoughts and interpretations on what was divinely given to him to record? And if so, wouldn't you think our early church fathers might have shared those extra nuggets of information with us? So far, just starting to study what our first and second century church fathers have to say in their writings, I haven't come across any extra Biblical nuggets of information the Apostle John may have shared with them. 

Do you suppose I'm chasing rabbit trails, or do you think something might be there?

 

 

 

No where in scripture does it say our interpitation of scriputre will be "infallible, inerrant and  inspired". So who do you think would have a better interpitation of Johns writtings, the pastors of the 21st century OR Polycarp?

Ive heard regularly that when the Church Fathers all agree you find truth.

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Except , of course,  when they all agree on falsehoods. ( which was frequent )

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Guest Judas Machabeus
5 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

Do you suppose I'm chasing rabbit trails, or do you think something might be there?

 

I don't think it's chasing a rabbit trail. I happen to agree with your reasoning. 

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5 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

So there's no misunderstanding before I get to my question / comments, the Bible is the infallible, inerrant and  inspired Word of God, that tells us what God wants us to know about Him, history, the creation and His plan of Salvation and redemption. With that said...

When studying scripture, sometimes to get a better understanding of the message that is being delivered, many times I will consult what the early Church Fathers had to say on a subject. In doing so a thought popped into my mind in relationships and information? From just the one example of relationships and discipleships below...

Polycarp (c. 69-156 A,D.) and friend of Ignatius, was a disciple and personal friend of the Apostle John. It's assumed the Apostle John lived a number of years beyond 95 A.D. when the Book of Revelation was written. I believe Polycarp probably was a disciple and friend of John for a number of years, possibly even after John penned Revelation.

Suppose for the sake of argument I was your student and became a close friend? I believe I would have some serious heart to heart discussions with you about our Lord, his apostleship and experiences, and pick your brain to Kingdom come on matters of the Lord, Biblical importance, prophecy and interpretations! Wouldn't that be a rational and logical assumption?

My point is, wouldn't you think the Apostle John might have discussed "off the record", with his disciple friends, his personal thoughts and interpretations on what was divinely given to him to record? And if so, wouldn't you think our early church fathers might have shared those extra nuggets of information with us? So far, just starting to study what our first and second century church fathers have to say in their writings, I haven't come across any extra Biblical nuggets of information the Apostle John may have shared with them. 

Do you suppose I'm chasing rabbit trails, or do you think something might be there?

 

 

 

The problem is also in reverse, the Apostle John makes no mention of Polycarp in 1 John, 2 John, 3 John, nor does the Apostle Paul in his lists of thanks. The Church Fathers of Ireneus, Polycarp, John Presybeter, Clement, Ignatius, and more are never mentioned in Scripture. Don't you think the Apostles would say, "greet Polycarp, John's disciple." Because Scripture has Paul saying, "To Timothy my true son in the faith: Grace, mercy and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord," (1 Timothy 1:2) and it was John Mark that was Disciple of Barabas, Paul, and others (Acts 12: 1-25, Acts 13:4-5), and yet there is no Early Church fathers named Polycarp, Justin, and others listed by Paul and the Apostles, "Barnabas, Simeon (called “the black man”[a]), Lucius (from Cyrene), Manaen (the childhood companion of King Herod Antipas), and Saul," (Acts 13:1), "Give my greetings to Priscilla and Aquila, my co-workers in the ministry of Christ Jesus. In fact, they once risked their lives for me. I am thankful to them, and so are all the Gentile churches. Also give my greetings to the church that meets in their home. Greet my dear friend Epenetus. He was the first person from the province of Asia to become a follower of Christ. Give my greetings to Mary, who has worked so hard for your benefit. Greet Andronicus and Junia,[a] my fellow Jews,[b] who were in prison with me. They are highly respected among the apostles and became followers of Christ before I did. Greet Ampliatus, my dear friend in the Lord. Greet Urbanus, our co-worker in Christ, and my dear friend Stachys. 10 Greet Apelles, a good man whom Christ approves. And give my greetings to the believers from the household of Aristobulus. 11 Greet Herodion, my fellow Jew. Greet the Lord’s people from the household of Narcissus. 12 Give my greetings to Tryphena and Tryphosa, the Lord’s workers, and to dear Persis, who has worked so hard for the Lord. 13 Greet Rufus, whom the Lord picked out to be his very own; and also his dear mother, who has been a mother to me. 14 Give my greetings to Asyncritus, Phlegon, Hermes, Patrobas, Hermas, and the brothers and sisters[d] who meet with them. 15 Give my greetings to Philologus, Julia, Nereus and his sister, and to Olympas and all the believers[e] who meet with them. 16 Greet each other with a sacred kiss. All the churches of Christ send you their greetings." (Romans 16:3-16).

I find that interesting, why no Book of Timothy or letter from Timothy to the churches after Paul's execution? And yet were suppose to believe Clement was a disciple of Paul? There are vast lists of co-workers in Christ in the New Testament, but none of names of Church Fathers (Apostolic Fathers, who came after Apostles by tradition in Eastern OrthodoxY) can be found in lists, except for Clement, but even that is suspect because the name is as common as Simeon, which was Peter's name, was half brother of Jesus' name, the name of the one who help Jesus carry His cross, and etc.

To me the Church Fathers are suspect because there is no mention of them in the Scriptures, and I have laid out with Scripture, that in ACTs and the epistles of Paul there is no mention of Polycarp, or these other supposed Church Fathers.

Edited by Fidei Defensor
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5 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

Do you suppose I'm chasing rabbit trails, or do you think something might be there?

No you are not chasing rabbit trails.  I think though, many would have thought of this before and their findings would have been penned somewhere along the line.  It is a lot of work and i give you thumbs up for adventuring in this endeavor.

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1 minute ago, Yowm said:

Good point about the absence of many of the Father's names in Scripture, besides we need to hear admonitions such as this...

I have applied all these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, brothers, that you may learn by us not to go beyond what is written, that none of you may be puffed up in favor of one against another.
(1Co 4:6)

 

Indeed, and Paul even discouraged cult followings of people, "What I mean is this: One of you says, "I follow Paul"; another, "I follow Apollos"; another, "I follow Cephas"; still another, "I follow Christ." Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized in the name of Paul? thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius, so no one can say that you were baptized in my name." (1 Corinthians 1:12-15).

 

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Guest Judas Machabeus
1 hour ago, Fidei Defensor said:

The problem is also in reverse, the Apostle John makes no mention of Polycarp in 1 John, 2 John, 3 John, nor does the Apostle Paul in his lists of thanks. The Church Fathers of Ireneus, Polycarp, John Presybeter, Clement, Ignatius, and more are never mentioned in Scripture. Don't you think the Apostles would say, "greet Polycarp, John's disciple."

Scott Hahn is a professor and he doesn't mention every student he has or had in his writtings..... there for they don't exist.

This argument is a straw argument. The Aposltes had many disciples and not all of them are mentioned. So because every single disciple isn't explicitly laid out they aren't disciples?!?

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25 minutes ago, Judas Machabeus said:

Scott Hahn is a professor and he doesn't mention every student he has or had in his writtings..... there for they don't exist.

This argument is a straw argument. The Aposltes had many disciples and not all of them are mentioned. So because every single disciple isn't explicitly laid out they aren't disciples?!?

A Straw argument? The Apostles mentioned their coworkers in Christ (I gave proof with Scripture). Sure teachers don't mention every student, but Paul is thorough (see my post, without taking one line out of context).

I've noticed you've joined the ranks of those Judas, who take one line of my post and respond to it without sharing all I said and then making a case against my argument. I made my case with Scripture, if that is Straw to you, then I stand on a Hay Bell proudly, for I stand on Scripture.

Edited by Fidei Defensor
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