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The C0uncil 0f Trent


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Just now, Judas Machabeus said:

AA perhaps you should pay closer attention to the conversation between David and I. 

David didn't provide links or even a defense to his accusations. He refused to define worship and continued to accuse me of Mary worship. He is not engaging in conversation just spewing his unproven accusations. 

YOU on the other hand have engaged in discussion and have used links (which I'll address when I get home) to support your position. I also did not ask YOU if you are more interested in trolling I asked David. I embrace disagreement and challenges but I will not tolerate someone that just wants to spew tag lines they've heard from anti-Catholics and refuse to back them up and defend them. They just get added to my ignore list and I brush the dust off my feet and move on.  I have engaged in numerous discussions with those that disagree with me and have enjoyed the two way discussions. The discussions will eventually get to the point where both parties agree to disagree. Buts it's got to be a two way conversation.

again to properly address all the things you brought up I would like to do it from my laptop so once I get home I will address your posts. Oh and extra points for you for going to the Vatican website to back up your position... respect!!

Cheers

 

Perhaps you should not presume I did not pay close attention to the conversation between Davida and you.  I did so, as is evident. And when you bring forth the charge of trolling to Davida, ("Define worship or are you just interested in trolling and not discussing")  the parameters of that label need be identified rightly. The trolling in this thread by the very definition of trolling is not evident in Davida's posts, nor in mine. 

They are however apparent in that effort put forth to defend Catholic doctrine, and avoid proofs posited from Roman Catholic sources, no matter who has done so, that demonstrate RCC doctrine is contrary to scripture and the essential Christ teaching of justification by faith. 

The individual is not a Christian because they are a member of the Roman Catholic church. They are a Christian because they are a member of the body of Christ. The Council of Trent and its decrees of certain of Christ's teachings as anathema preclude Roman Catholic church testimony from enjoying that privilege afforded by God's grace. The Council of Trent in as much sought to interject itself as authority over God's grace by shredding his only begotten son's identity, purpose, and passion. And as such the Council of Trent insured the RCC was idolatrous and made forfeit in its claim to represent the will of the very God who's son the council eviscerated with their decrees.  

If there is trolling in this world, it is that which is exampled by the RCC and its missionaries across the world. And for the sake of souls every Catholic need be evangelized while there is still time to bring them to Christ and save their souls from their death in their sins that the RCC perpetuates to its own material advantage. 

 

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Guest Judas Machabeus
40 minutes ago, Anonymous Aristotle said:

Perhaps you should not presume I did not pay close attention to the conversation between Davida and you.  I did so, as is evident. And when you bring forth the charge of trolling to Davida, ("Define worship or are you just interested in trolling and not discussing")  the parameters of that label need be identified rightly. The trolling in this thread by the very definition of trolling is not evident in Davida's posts, nor in mine. 

They are however apparent in that effort put forth to defend Catholic doctrine, and avoid proofs posited from Roman Catholic sources, no matter who has done so, that demonstrate RCC doctrine is contrary to scripture and the essential Christ teaching of justification by faith. 

The individual is not a Christian because they are a member of the Roman Catholic church. They are a Christian because they are a member of the body of Christ. The Council of Trent and its decrees of certain of Christ's teachings as anathema preclude Roman Catholic church testimony from enjoying that privilege afforded by God's grace. The Council of Trent in as much sought to interject itself as authority over God's grace by shredding his only begotten son's identity, purpose, and passion. And as such the Council of Trent insured the RCC was idolatrous and made forfeit in its claim to represent the will of the very God who's son the council eviscerated with their decrees.  

If there is trolling in this world, it is that which is exampled by the RCC and its missionaries across the world. And for the sake of souls every Catholic need be evangelized while there is still time to bring them to Christ and save their souls from their death in their sins that the RCC perpetuates to its own material advantage. 

 

Mmkay

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49 minutes ago, Anonymous Aristotle said:

If there is trolling in this world, it is that which is exampled by the RCC and its missionaries across the world. And for the sake of souls every Catholic need be evangelized while there is still time to bring them to Christ and save their souls from their death in their sins that the RCC perpetuates to its own material advantage. 

Amein !   May they all repent and believe the GOOD NEWS , the TRUTH of JESUS !  by FAITH in HIS NAME !

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2 minutes ago, inchrist said:

So define worship.....what is worship? Use scripture now please

How about you define it somehow in a way that people can worship idols without sinning ?

 

(I don't think that's possible;  since YHWH and YHWH'S WORD always calls idolatry sin)

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On 18/06/2017 at 4:19 PM, inchrist said:

Please post a direct quote from the pope on this....otherwise I can assume this is another false attack.

"At his weekly general audience June 25, Pope Francis continued his series of audience talks about the church, telling an estimated 33,000 people that there is no such thing as 'do-it-yourself' Christians or 'free agents' when it comes to faith ... Pope Francis described as 'dangerous' the temptation to believe that one can have a personal, direct, immediate relationship with Jesus Christ without communion with and the mediation of the church."

"These are dangerous and harmful temptations. These are, as the great Paul VI said, absurd dichotomies." 

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On 18/06/2017 at 4:19 PM, inchrist said:
Quote

 Yet scripture declares but ONE Mediator between God and man, 

 

Again another false charge

The Catholic Catechism, 

… the Incarnation corresponds to mediation in the order of being, and the Redemption (remission of sin and conferral of grace) is mediation morally.

This kind of mediation is incommunicable. No one but the Savior unites in himself the divinity, which demands reconciliation, and the humanity, which needs to be reconciled.

The Cathechism is the rule of faith for Roman Catholicism....it is NOT the rule of faith for Christianity. I am speakig of scripture...the catechism is not scripture. 1 Timothy 2:5  For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

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4 hours ago, inchrist said:

The Catechism of the Council of Trent (1566) taught that idolatry is committed "by worshipping idols and images as God, or believing that they possess any divinity or virtue entitling them to our worship, by praying to, or reposing confidence in them" (374). 

"Idolatry is a perversion of man’s innate religious sense. An idolater is someone who ‘transfers his indestructible notion of God to anything other than God’" (CCC 2114). 

How about getting your facts staight before deciding to play God?

 

Any form of devotion...consecration...affection....that places anything or anyone ahead of God, is idolatry. Now allow me to quote "Mary".

"Dear children! Today I call you to prayer. I am with you and I love you all. I am your mother and I wish your hearts be similar to my heart. Little children, without prayer you cannot live and say that you are mine. Prayer is joy. Prayer is what the human heart desires. Therefore, get closer little children, to my immaculate heart and you will discover God".

The above was a message given by the demon 'Mary' who regularly appeared at Medjugorje in the 1980s, and beyond. The above particular message was delivered November 25, 1994. If such messages don't send creepy chills down your spine you are as blind as those who 'pilgrim' to these places.

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What many non-Catholics and possibly even some Catholics, do not realize is that in any debate between Catholicism and other faiths of a Christian nature, is like comparing apples with cream cheese. If it were apples and oranges, then we might make some headway. But the Catholic faith is not based on the teachings of the Bible. There were periods even in recent history when the church of Rome literally banned the Bible, and persecuted all those who had one, killing those who would dare translate one, because it exposed the false teachings of Rome.

So one side of the debate defend their faith by quoting their Catechism, and they are correct in doing so, because that is a layman's reflection of the dogmas and canons of the church. But for a Catholic to defend his faith from scripture/Bible/word of God....is dangerous because a correct understanding of scripture and a discerning understanding of Catholic doctrine reveals many contradictions. Thus a Catholic when quoting scripture must do two things...first they must never explain it in any fashion other than as his church dictates, and second, they must be very selective in deciding which scriptures  to quote.

The non-Catholic Christian however in quoting the Bible in order to prove the Catholic is "wrong" in his teachings, is equally on dangerous ground. First, because of the several areas in doctrine where Protestants have yet to fully come out of Catholicism, and still cleave to Catholic teachings. The trinity and Sunday sacredness are two such instances. Second, one cannot prove the Catholic is not a good Catholic by quoting the Bible. He/she may be an excellent Catholic, even while completely ignoring Bible truth, as is exposed often in these forums. Why? Because again, Catholicism is not based on the Bible. Even attempting to prove a Catholic is not a Christian by means of scripture is difficult, because the Catholic does not use scripture as evidence of his being "Christian", nor as the basis of his faith and practice. That again is bound up in the Catechism, which he may claim is Bible based, but one must remember that any Catholic teaching if it is to be compared to the Bible, for the Catholic is not authoritative...such authority lies solely at the discretion of his church elders, namely the council of bishops who decide how the Bible is to be interpreted and understood. Tradition at times is even more authoritative than scripture, again, if that council declares it so. In other words, the bottom line for any Catholic in any challenge to his faith is not a question of whether such challenge says "do you agree with scripture?", but rather "do you agree with the curia?"

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55 minutes ago, brakelite said:

The non-Catholic Christian however in quoting the Bible in order to prove the Catholic is "wrong" in his teachings, is equally on dangerous ground.

Not at all dangerous ground,  but the only truth,  the only safe ground, is God's Word as God has Revealed to all of His children, as His Word says clearly .

 

The wrong teachings, practices, and traditions are those which directly oppose Jesus, and are directly contrary to God's Word.   No one should ever be taught or even influenced by such heresies or errors.

Jesus even pronounces WOES (judgment, strict judgment) on all those who teach such things causing litte ones who are seeking the kingdom to stumble or even to always go astray on the wide road to destruction -

it would be better if those who cause a little one to .... lose the light in his eyes ....  

if they were never born,  or had a millstone tied around their neck and be thrown in the deep sea.

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41 minutes ago, simplejeff said:

Not at all dangerous ground,  but the only truth,  the only safe ground, is God's Word as God has Revealed to all of His children, as His Word says clearly .

 

The wrong teachings, practices, and traditions are those which directly oppose Jesus, and are directly contrary to God's Word.   No one should ever be taught or even influenced by such heresies or errors.

Jesus even pronounces WOES (judgment, strict judgment) on all those who teach such things causing litte ones who are seeking the kingdom to stumble or even to always go astray on the wide road to destruction -

it would be better if those who cause a little one to .... lose the light in his eyes ....  

if they were never born,  or had a millstone tied around their neck and be thrown in the deep sea.

i get what you are saying, and I agree with you. But bear with me a moment. Yes, the Bible, in our perception of truth, is the basis for our faith and practice. For us, it is Truth. For the Catholic however, to convince him of truth, you must first convince him that the Bible is the prime source of Truth. He doesn't see things that way. For the Catholic, his church is the prime source of Truth. It is the church that defines what is Truth. And if the Bible, and the church are in contradistinction on any doctrinal point, the Catholic ceases to be Catholic the moment he accepts the Bible above the teachings of his church. Like I said, apples and cream cheese. The apples base their reality on the Bible, the cream cheese base their reality on what their church says the Bible means.

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