The C0uncil 0f Trent

[existential mabel]

1 hour ago, Judas Machabeus said:

First off we need to be honest about something. Protestant have plenty of their own man made traditions that they have introduced that are not biblical so the idea of the reformation being a release from tradition is not true. Also while we are being honest the whole "bible only" again is not found in scripture. Bible alone allowed Luther to reject the Catholic Church, a Church he was a monk in and a Church he became dissonant with. So to justify his rejection of the Church he used scripture and when he couldn't find scripture he added the words he needed to so that scripture would fit he also attempted to remove books from the NT and he was successful in removing books from the OT. This is the foundation upon which the reformation was built upon. It was built upon changing scripture, canon of scripture and theology to match a pissed off Monks idea of what Christianity should be. NOT what Jesus's idea of Christianity was but Luthers. Not this romanticized idea of freeing the true gospel from the bondage of the Catholic Church.

My fiance who is a former Protestant still attend's her old woman's group bible study. So it's Protestant, and the study is on David and while I was perusing Worth on my phone and she was watching one of the video's for the study something caught my attention. The commentator was talking about Psalm 23 and she said "I know the text doesn't say this but we can force this meaning into anyways...."

That is your Protestant Reformation right there "I know the text doesn't say this but we can force the meaning into it anyways"

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First off we need to be honest about something. Protestant have plenty of their own man made traditions that they have introduced that are not biblical

yes this is my point entirely the bottom line of where i am coming from for both catholic and protestant.

 

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she said "I know the text doesn't say this but we can force this meaning into anyways...."

i am fairly new to all this stuff however i have felt for a long time that religion is a set of mans wisdom. the bible is the first line of truth and then man of which  ever religious persuasion  interprets this based on various factors the kind of religous upbringing and culture....

interesting thought though why is Jesus mostly depicted as white lol?

so if its all based on the bible only then why does church have all these rules and regulations? i mean Jesus was constantly challenging the pharisees of the legalistic dogma.

 i have more of God when i am on my own, in the quietness. i cant seem to find God in church. i have been seeking for a long time. its interesting.. a friend came around to visit me the other day and kept saying gosh this place seems so light and i had done nothing different.. oh sure threw all the chaos behind the settee lol!

in church there is no quietness at the beginning, before the service starts everyone is talking and getting up and down from their seats and then the service itself has very little if any silence. so how can tune into and worship God? that format doesnt work for me.

[Guest Judas Machabeus]

41 minutes ago, Judas Machabeus said:

In the interest of not chasing you down a rabbit hole I only highlighted 3 things you said.

I assume you would consider yourself a true believer. So I would like to ask you if it's okay for a true believer to ignore scripture and go against scripture. Would that still make them a true believer?

I ask this because in multiple places in scripture it says we are not to bare false witness. The high priest looked for someone to do just that very thing so he could justify killing Jesus. Catholics do not pay priest to get into heaven, they do not worship idols and they do not believe the pope is divine. It amazes me when people climb atop the high horse and start bashing other faiths all the while they are guilty of the very thing God hates (see my sig).

Cheers and God Bless

 

9 minutes ago, Davida said:

Ya Judas , your efforts to try  to compare me to the Jewish Priests that paid Judas for betraying CHRIST is just beyond ludicrous.   You continue to deny what is taught and practiced in the RCC- lol, it is not a secret.   It is beyond ridiculous to continue to pretend that no one outside of Roman Catholics know anything of what is done.  Like I've said numerable times my relatives are Roman Catholics and I have attended many RCC's over the past 30 yrs, but I've seen the same arguments given to those who have told you they themselves were themselves a devout Roman Catholic for 1o- 30 yrs and you still try to tell them they are clueless.    Denying the idol worship by the RCC continues to do just be bizarre quality of those that are under it's charm.  FYI, Pointing out the heretical characteristics of this apostate RCC is not bearing false witness it is pointing out the undeniable facts based upon GOD's WORD which the RCC also attacks.  One of the glaring problems that RC's face is they don't know the Word of God to apply it because their church leaders are not saved.

Lets break down your post a little if I may

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Ya Judas , your efforts to try  to compare me to the Jewish Priests that paid Judas for betraying CHRIST is just beyond ludicrous

baring false witness what I in fact said was "The high priest looked for someone to do just that very thing so he could justify killing Jesus" and what I was referencing was Matt 26:59 "59Now the chief priests and the whole councilh were seeking false testimony against Jesus that they might put him to death,"

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It is beyond ridiculous to continue to pretend that no one outside of Roman Catholics know anything of what is done

I don't pretend this, I just don't believe YOU know what is taught and believed by the Catholic Church. Yowm and I just had a discussion in the Purgatory thread and he was able to summarize the teaching on Purgatory. I don't think he fully understands it but I do believe he knows what the Catholic Church teaches on it. AND I think I can say with certainty that he does NOT believe in the teaching of Purgatory.

So false again.

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Like I've said numerable times my relatives are Roman Catholics and I have attended many RCC's over the past 30 yrs,

So attending many masses over 30 years makes you an expert of Catholic teachings. Well sir my hats off you to because I was born and raised a Catholic and am still learning 40 years later.

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you still try to tell them they are clueless.

Can you post up the link to the post where I called someone clueless? I checked and by my count you have used the word clueless 4 times since i joined worthy and I have not used it once. Feel free to check for yourself, I joined in Aug 2011 so you have 13 pages to scroll through.

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/search/?&q=clueless&page=1

So for the time being I'm going put this in the false witness column

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Denying the idol worship by the RCC continues to do just be bizarre quality of those that are under it's charm

more false witnessing. Here is the official teaching of the Catholic Church (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_INDEX.HTM) Can you give me the paragraph number that teaches Catholic to worship idols?

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Pointing out the heretical characteristics of this apostate RCC is not bearing false witness

You have not done this. All you have done is make up things and accuse the Catholic Church of doing it. Let take a look at what you said.

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bow down to idols, & pay Priests for ceremonies to get them to heaven or their dead relatives out of purgatory.  True believers don't place statues of Mary or other dead saints in their homes or in our places of worship, they do not go to Priests to have their sins forgiven or think that a mere man , the Pope possesses any divinity 

From this post here: https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/208492-the-c0uncil-0f-trent/?do=findComment&comment=2614055

 

So can you give me official Catholic documents that support your claim. Otherwise you are not pointing out "heretical characteristics" you are in fact baring false witness.

So my conclusion:

I'm now speaking in broad general terms and not specifically about David. Far too often we will hear something said about a person or a group and because what is said falls in line with our own biases and prejudices we do not question it. This is visible on worthy, when the topic of Catholicism comes up you will see all sorts of things said about what the Church believes and teaches. And 99% ( 76% of all statistics are made up on the spot  ) of the time when challenged to provide proof the poster with give the anti-catholic rolodex a spin and spew out more falsehoods. That 1% though will have a basic understanding, or be seeking to understand the teaching so that they can properly criticize it without baring false witness. Understanding a proper teaching doesn't mean you agree with it. Just means you understand what someone else believes.

Cheers

 

[Guest Judas Machabeus]

49 minutes ago, existential mabel said:

yes this is my point entirely the bottom line of where i am coming from for both catholic and protestant.

 

i am fairly new to all this stuff however i have felt for a long time that religion is a set of mans wisdom. the bible is the first line of truth and then man of which  ever religious persuasion  interprets this based on various factors the kind of religous upbringing and culture....

interesting thought though why is Jesus mostly depicted as white lol?

so if its all based on the bible only then why does church have all these rules and regulations? i mean Jesus was constantly challenging the pharisees of the legalistic dogma.

 i have more of God when i am on my own, in the quietness. i cant seem to find God in church. i have been seeking for a long time. its interesting.. a friend came around to visit me the other day and kept saying gosh this place seems so light and i had done nothing different.. oh sure threw all the chaos behind the settee lol!

in church there is no quietness at the beginning, before the service starts everyone is talking and getting up and down from their seats and then the service itself has very little if any silence. so how can tune into and worship God? that format doesnt work for me.

you bring up some good points

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interesting thought though why is Jesus mostly depicted as white lol?

My future mother in law has a black Jesus figurine in her sitting room. First time I saw it I was taken back a little bit for just the reason you stated above. But in Africa why would be be anything black or what about Asian is Jesus Asian.... the end of the day Jesus would have a middle eastern skin tone (I assume, I wasn't there). But each culture is going to have Jesus looking as they do I assume.

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so if its all based on the bible only then why does church have all these rules and regulations? i mean Jesus was constantly challenging the pharisees of the legalistic dogma.

First, Jesus never gave us a bible. The New Testament writings didn't start till 10-20 years after Jesus died. And than it took  50-60 years before the complete writings where completed (Revelation being the last one written and its date is all over the map depending on what scholars you read).

So what did Jesus leave us. I believe he left the entire deposit of faith with the Apostles and gave them his authority over his disciples. To teach them and lead them into the truth. The bible as we know it didn't come to be until 397ish AD. AND it was determined by Catholic Bishops under the authority Jesus gave them (Matt 18:15-20)

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15“If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. 16But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses. 17If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. 18Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosedf in heaven. 19Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. 20For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I among them.”

Jesus is talking to the apostles and not to all his disciples. Its a build up of authority, first you go to your brother. Than bring a group and if he still doesn`t listen you bring him to the church. Well Church here can not be referring to disciples because that step is verse 16. The Church also can not be the disciples because of verse 18 and 19. Jesus is not only giving his authority but he`s telling them that what they decide on will be done by the Father in Heaven. 

So in the beginning we had just Oral Tradition. Than we had Apostles begin to write things down, so now we have written and oral (2 Thes 2:13-15)

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13But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruitsd to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth. 14To this he called you through our gospel, so that you may obtain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our spoken word or by our letter.

we are saved through sanctification by the Holy Spirit and belief in the truth

Paul than says Jesus called them through the gospel

Paul than tells them to stand firm to the traditions taught by spoken word (oral), or written.

So we have written and oral and the third authority is the apostles and their successors the bishops (which I touched on at the beginning of this post). But I will address my addition of bishops since I showed the authority passed from Jesus to the Apostles so what about it being passed on to Bishops.

A couple passages to look at, first Acts 1:26

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 26And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

We see that by Judas`s betral and death his office (KjV calles it his bishoprick) is left vacant and someone must fill this vacancy. This would apply to each of the Apostles. When an apostle died they would have to be replaced and this is where the office of the Bishop comes from.

Next passage shows that the office of Bishop went beyond just the 12 Apostles as Christianity grew 1 Tim 3:1

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1This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.

Next is generational ordianation 2 Tim 2:2

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and what you have heard from me in the presence of many witnesses entrust to faithful men,a who will be able to teach others also.

Okay I did more than a couple but I think it`s important to look at scripture as a whole. This is why I linked to the entire chapter and not just the verse. So we see that there is an office called bishoprick (KJV) and that it must be filled is vancant. We see Paul talking about men seeking to become Bishops and what qualifications they should have. Than we see that ordination is not just for the immediate generation but to be passed on to others.

Okay so lets bring everything together. Lets start by bringing back your quote

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so if its all based on the bible only then why does church have all these rules and regulations? i mean Jesus was constantly challenging the pharisees of the legalistic dogma.

I`ve demonstrated that first came a Authoritative Church with Jesus`s authority. Than he left that authority with his Church orally, and as time past the Apostles began to write things down and write letters. So we have an authoritative Church with the deposit of faith, in the beginning it was passed on orally and later written. So we have 3 branches of authority. Church, Oral and Written. All three contain the Word of God as left by Jesus there for anything coming from one that disagrees with the other two is false teaching. This is why you see what you call rules and regulations. Because with out an authoritative teaching Church you have what Protestantism has spiraled into. Each and every Protestant is their own authority, each individual decides for themselves what scripture means and what it doesn`t mean. This is not what Jesus gave us. He gave us a Church with leaders to guide us and to protect His truth.

[OldSchool2]

22 hours ago, existential mabel said:

https://www.biblebelievers.com/jmelton/Catholic.html

 

"Why was the Reformation controversial in the sixteenth century? Why does it remain controversial today? The answer, I believe, is that the Reformation (or rather the biblical gospel it rediscovered) ..."

... was rediscovered by a Roman Catholic reformist named Martin Luther who taught consubstantiation, i.e., that Jesus is present in essence along with the bread and wine.

https://www.gotquestions.org/consubstantiation.html

[brakelite]

On 24/06/2017 at 2:27 AM, inchrist said:

I find this hard to believe, because you wouldnt get the basics wrong: for example that Catholicism teaches that Christ isnt the one mediator between man and God.

I am not offended, nor surprised  you do not believe my testimony, it is what it is.  The truth is is that I do not have the basics wrong. When Catholics pray to Mary or some other saint because they believe such a one has more influence with God than does Jesus, this is clear to anyone who can reason that Jesus has been replaced with a system that promotes itself , and dead people, as a mediator. I am sure that the church teaches that Jesus is the only Mediator, they cannot so openly deny the clear scripture saying so. But they can certainly practice otherwise, and teach contradictory advice in doing so. When I used to pray the rosary I had no perception whatsoever that is doing so I was displacing Jesus as the sole Mediator between my self and the Father...but regardless of what my understanding was at the time, that surely was what I, and countless millions of others were doing.

I would like also to make a further particular point. Much of what goes on within Catholicism today is by demonic revelation. It is based on mysticism and superstition...taking the word of demonic apparitions and exalting them above the truths of scripture. Allow me to offer an example.

Early last century an apparition, claiming to be Jesus, appeared to a certain Berthe Petit. This being said..."By confident consecration to my mother, the devotion to my heart will be strengthened and, as it were, completed."  Jesus needs his mother to complete His work in us?

Further, a Catholic author, Daniel Lynch reported on this in his book 'The Total Consecration'. Quote....having made such consecration, the best means to fulfil the first Friday and first Saturday devotions, to honor completely the sacred heart of Jesus and the immaculate heart of Mary and to hasten the 'triumph of the immaculate heart' (whatever that means) is to make the "Double Great Novena" requested by Jesus on August 15, 1942 of sister Maria Natalia, an Hungarian nun. This novena consists of reception of holy communion after prayer preparation and repentance, on nine consecutive first Saturdays together with and parallel to nine first Fridays with the intentions of consoling the sacred heart and the immaculate heart."

Console...to comfort, soothe, quieten down, compose ╷ pacify,  conciliate, assuage, appease, mollify. So if one of those Saturdays should be missed, does that mean Jesus and Mary are going to stay angry and refuse to be consoled? Are they going to continue to be upset over your sin because you failed??? Is that grace, or is it salvation by works? Is that a true reflection of Jesus's once only sacrifice for all sin?

Hebrews 7:27  Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people’s: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.

That is precisely the kind of mindset I grew up with....a certain fear of God...not a godly fear of respect, but a fear of judgement and punishment...a fear of His anger, when He is NOT angry!!! God has to be appeased by penance, when He has already given His only begotten Son ---what more can we add to that to make God forgive us???!!!!...God has to be approached through Mary or one of His favorite saints because Mary has more influence. As a mother Mary knows how to talk God out of being angry. This inchrist was the kind of thinking that permeated the church when I was growing up...it was what I was taught in the home, and it was constantly affirmed through the myriad of means by which prayer, devotion, consecration etc was redirected away from the sacrifice made on our behalf which fully and finally dealt with the sin problem by our only Savior through scapulas, rosaries, novenas, medallions, relics, parades, masses etc etc.

I will continue with my former example. Another Catholic author, John Hallert, in his book "To Prevent This", wrote:

"In 1934 when Sister Natalia was 33 years old, she had asked 'Jesus' to grant some special graces to souls of our times to honor the 33 years he spent on earth.

On August 25, 1942,' Jesus' responded to this request of Sister Natalia with great generosity multiplying what he had already granted in his sacred heart devotion to saint Margaret Alacoque in 1690. (Obviously His death wasn't enough)

He gave her 33 promises for all those who will complete a 'double great novena', as he called it. (This means going to mass and communion on the first Friday and Saturday while one is in the state of grace, in reparation for sins committed against the sacred and immaculate hearts, for nine consecutive months. )

With these promises, 'Jesus 'also gave the following instructions;  "my child, look at your mother as the queen of the world. Love her and surround her with the trust of a child. I want this from you and from everyone. Behold the immaculate heart in which I have placed graces for the world nd souls. As the heavenly Father gave everything to me, in the same manner I give my victorious power over the world and sin to the immculate heart of my mother. Through my daughter, Margaret, I gave the world tremendous promises, but since my goodness is infinite, I now offer even more.

:If the people wish to gain the benefits of my promises here, they must love and venerate the immaculate heart of my mother. The greatest sign of this reverence will be if they receive me in holy communion after proper preparation and repentance on nine consecutive first Saturdays prallel with the first Fridays.

"Their intentions should be to console my heart togather with the immaculate heart of my mother. If someone hurts me, that person hurts my mother as well. If someone consoles me, this consolation will console my mother at the same time. My mother and I are one in love."

The above was quoted from a Catholic publication that has been promulgated throughout the world since 1998. The publication is called THE MARIAN AND MEDJUGORJE CENTRE FOR PEACE NEWSLETTER.

If anyone reading the above isn't sickened by the gross idolatry and antichrist ideas being promoted here, they do not have the Spirit of God leading them. The above is pure superstitious nonsense which a deluded church populace is far too ready to accept, believe, and pass on to others.

IT IS NOT BIBLE RELIGION.

 

 

[brakelite]

25 minutes ago, inchrist said:

I dont see anything wrong with the letter.....

Then there is nothing more I could possibly add.

[brakelite]

1 hour ago, inchrist said:

Properly best as it would seem you dont understand what veneration means, see its all these little things that add up why I dont believe you were Catholic. By the way, Christ speaking to any memeber of his body is not satanic....Christ is not just a protestant

Mary being "co redemptrix" with Christ goes way beyond veneration...it is Antichrist.

A vision, be it angel or any 'divine' being, we are instructed to test. The only way to do this is to compare their teachings or admonitions with the word of God. If it contradicts what has already been revealed by the Spirit of Christ through the prophets of the OT or Christ Himself or  His apostles in the new, then they are lying spirits.

[Guest Judas Machabeus]

4 minutes ago, brakelite said:

Mary being "co redemptrix" with Christ goes way beyond veneration...it is Antichrist.

A vision, be it angel or any 'divine' being, we are instructed to test. The only way to do this is to compare their teachings or admonitions with the word of God. If it contradicts what has already been revealed by the Spirit of Christ through the prophets of the OT or Christ Himself or  His apostles in the new, then they are lying spirits.

brakelite you claim to have been a devote Catholic in your twenties and educated throughout your young life.

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BTW, I am not ignorant of Catholicism as you would attempt to make out. I was a dedicated committed Catholic into my twenties. Educated throughout my young life in Catholic institutions. My rejection of Catholicism today is not based on what you folk like to claim ignorance of Catholc culture and/or Protestant bias.

can you tell us the Catholic teaching on co-redemtrix please.

 

 

[Anonymous Aristotle]

11 minutes ago, inchrist said:

Another one who also claims to be ex Catholic....

 

Show me anywhere in scripture we are anot allowed to have religious objects....

 

I would then suggest we burn the sisten chapel down, and all christian religious art and symbols and icons....then when we done with that....then we can focus on burning Jewish religious symbols and icons

Seek ye the old testament and the laws of God that prohibit idols. 

[Anonymous Aristotle]

Catholic Dictionary

Term

CO-REDEMPTRIX

Definition

A title of the Blessed Virgin as co-operator with Christ in the work of human redemption. It may be considered an aspect of Mary's mediation in not only consenting to become the Mother of God but in freely consenting in his labors, sufferings, and death for the salvation of the human race. As Co-Redemptrix, she is in no sense equal to Christ in his redemptive activity, since she herself required redemption and in fact was redeemed by her Son. He alone merited man's salvation. Mary effectively interceded to obtain subjective application of Christ's merits to those whom the Savior had objectively redeemed.

 

 

 

Catholicism.Org Mary Co-Redemptrix

 

 

Scroll to the bottom of this articles page to read the petition to then Pope John Paul II regarding this. 

THE FIFTH MARIAN DOGMA

Mary: Coredemptrix, Mediatrix, Advocate   MARY C0-REDEMPTRIX Coredemptrix Mediatrix Advocate A Response to 7 Common Objections