The C0uncil 0f Trent

[missmuffet]

Question: "What happened at the Council of Trent?"

Answer: After the separation of the Eastern and Western churches in 1054, the holding of councils by the pope became a way to give guidance to the church, both locally and ecumenically (for the entire church), on varying ecclesiastical matters. One of the most significant of these was the Council of Trent, held in the mid-1500s, which considered such weighty matters as the Lutheran Protestant Reformation and how to counter it, disciplinary reforms in the church, the definition of dogma, and ways to establish key tenets of Roman Catholicism. In fact, the growing complexities of the issues at stake grew so voluminous that it took 18 years, spanning the reigns of five popes, for the Council of Trent to actually convene.

During the Council of Trent, both Scripture and tradition were declared authoritative for the Roman Catholic Church, with tradition just as authoritative as Scripture. Salvation by grace alone through faith alone, one of the Reformers’ rallying cries, was dumped overboard in favor of “sacramental” and “works” righteousness.

There are seven sacraments instituted by Christ, according to the council: baptism, confirmation, communion, penance, unction, orders and marriage. The council condemned anyone who said sacraments were not necessary for salvation, or that through faith alone without any sacrament man can be justified. “Works” righteousness is the belief that one can win God’s favor by doing good things.

The council also confirmed the belief in transubstantiation, that the substance of bread and wine given during communion (the “Eucharist”) is changed into the actual body and blood of Christ, while the appearance of bread and wine remains.

Trent attendees stressed man’s incapacity to save himself, yet confirmed the necessity for the cooperation of his free will, including his resolve to receive baptism and begin a new life. They denied that predestination to salvation can be known with certainty (one rebuttal to this belief is found in Romans 8:28-30). Modern Roman Catholicism, in general, continues to hold to the beliefs put forward and accepted at Trent

https://www.gotquestions.org/Council-of-Trent.html

[brakelite]

10 hours ago, Judas Machabeus said:

Okay, typical cop out. The rest of your post is more unsubstantiated claims with nothing backing it up.

Theres no point asking you to back up your new claims.... you'll just tell me to do my own research. 

Nonsense...the reason I suggest you research it is that the topic is so vast, and the resources available so plenty, I could barely scratch the surface, and you will not likely accept my word anyway. Like most Catholics, (and I know having been one a greater portion of my now 60+ years), it is unlikely you would so readily accept a contrary history to that which you have been previously taught by your church. The existence of Christian communities outside of the auspices of the Roman See is unthinkable to most staunch Roman Catholics. Such a reality impacts Papal authority and numerous other direct and indirect consequences that greatly undermine the Catholic perception that only through the pope and the sacraments can there be salvation.

For example. The church that St Thomas established in Goa, India, in the first century. Christian or not? Was it under the ecclesiastical authority of Rome? And then what of the missionaries that Indian church sent out to the rest of India? Christian also? Roman? What of the churches of Galatia? Those Galatians that PauL converted were Celtic. They established themselves there in Asia Minor 300 years before Christ. They still traded with their own kin back in Britain and the gospel, along with the Christian scriptures, went with those traders. All 100s of years before the Roman church was a church.

Anyway, you will be better off reading such things from real historians that you can look up for yourself. Don't take my word for it.

[existential mabel]

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/sacrament

Ecclesiastical. a visible sign of an inward grace, especially one of the solemn Christian rites considered to have been instituted by Jesus Christ to symbolize or confer grace: the sacraments of the Protestant churches are baptism and the Lord's Supper;

the sacraments of the Roman Catholic and Greek Orthodox churches are baptism, confirmation, the Eucharist, matrimony, penance, holy orders, and extreme unction.

[existential mabel]

http://medievaleurope.mrdonn.org/inquisition.html

The Inquisition could place people under arrest and question them using torture to get them to confess to heresy. If you confessed right away before torture, you would be punished but you could be redeemed. If you didn't confess, you could be tortured until you did confess. How could a person win? Well, you couldn't.

The Inquisition started out as a way to fight against evil, but very quickly became another tool to control people.

[warrior12]

On 6/7/2017 at 0:35 PM, Judas Machabeus said:

Scripture tells us that Jesus founded a church and that he will be with us to the end of the age and he will send us the Holy Spirit to guide us into truth. So how can Jesus be with us and the Holy Spirit guiding us and His church becomes corrupt? Doesn't make sense.

Is not the catholic church produced much corruption and scandals, and to be fair so has others in the protestant churches and elsewhere.  The church Jesus was talking about is an invisible church and rightly cannot be corrupted, as it is all true believers living in faith and truth to the gospel of Jesus Christ.   Does it make sense now.  

 

[Guest Judas Machabeus]

1 hour ago, warrior12 said:

Is not the catholic church produced much corruption and scandals, and to be fair so has others in the protestant churches and elsewhere.  The church Jesus was talking about is an invisible church and rightly cannot be corrupted, as it is all true believers living in faith and truth to the gospel of Jesus Christ.   Does it make sense now.  

 

well scripture disagrees with this as well. Pauls letters are to Churches not an invisible body. In revelation we see seven letters to seven churches, not seven letters to seven invisible bodies. Paul ordained elders and bishops, there were leaders over churches not an invisible body. The Body of Christ is made up of believers, I agree with that. In the very beginning they met in homes, BUT they also met in the synagogues until they were expelled. As Christianity grew and developed, we see organization and leadership. We see Paul building up communities of believers and putting people in charge of these groups. The Church Jesus founded is not invisible, no where in scripture does it say so. The Church Jesus founded is a very visible Church and we can still see it today. His Church is made up of believers (which you can see and touch) and has an authoritative leadership (which you can see and touch). This "invisible" church is a work around created by Protestants to explain why there was no such thing as the sola's ever taught in history and why ever single Protestant denomination was started by a man and NOT Jesus Christ.

Yes there has been scandal in the Catholic Church over the years. I don't know of any scripture that says the Church Jesus founded was going to be 100% perfect 100% of the time on 100% of all things. Actually scripture shows us differently, Peter messed up repeatedly..... BUT he never taught error did he!! I find it interesting that Protestants don't hold their "invisible" church to a standard of 100% perfect 100% of the time on 100% of everything, but they hold the Catholic Church to that standard. Jesus said he would send the Holy Spirit to guide the Church in truth, therefore the Church which Jesus founded will not teach error. I am fully aware that most if not all have a list of "error's" that they believe the Catholic Church is guilty of. Obviously I would disagree, not because I'm Catholic but because the Protestant arguments don't hold up. First off, most can't even agree what a specific teaching is, lets us take the Purgatory thread as an example. Post after post makes reference to purgatory as being a means of salvation or a place. Which is not the teaching of the Church. Protestants are so divided amongst themselves, how can a non-Protestant honestly look at Protestantism and believe that truth lies there when they can't even agree with themselves.

There is one catholic (universal) Church founded by Jesus Christ and built up by the apostles. If your Church can not trace it's lineage back to the apostles than how can it be part of the Church Jesus founded? Jesus laid the foundation and the apostles built upon it. For me its just that simple.

[simplejeff]

Scandal!?   scandal in the rcc ?    Because they are totally deceptive ?   nah......   that's not scandal.    the traditions opposed to YHWH'S WORD are just as Jesus said they are - sons of the devil.

[simplejeff]

3 hours ago, existential mabel said:

The Inquisition started out as a way to fight against evil, but very quickly became another tool to control people.

No mabel,  the inquisition was not ever as a way to fight against evil,  no,  never was....

It was used by evil to kill many people, and still is going on today,  if you care to find out.

[simplejeff]

9 hours ago, brakelite said:

Nonsense...the reason I suggest you research it is that the topic is so vast, and the resources available so plenty, I could barely scratch the surface, and you will not likely accept my word anyway.

Amein.  The devastating vastness,  the immense historical abominations ,  the complete deception involved keeping people in bondage to satan by manmade and demonic worship, practice and traditions including all idolatry and the abominations of the mass and confessional,  is not easily accepted by those trapped by it.   While it is truly a miracle anyone on earth is saved,   it is practically impossible for anyone who trusts in man to be saved,   but as Jesus says what is impossible with man (including all those deceived in worldly religion(s)),  is possible with God (His Business is Miracles/ Salvation) in Jesus !

[Guest Judas Machabeus]

9 hours ago, brakelite said:

For example. The church that St Thomas established in Goa, India, in the first century. Christian or not? Was it under the ecclesiastical authority of Rome? And then what of the missionaries that Indian church sent out to the rest of India? Christian also? Roman? What of the churches of Galatia? Those Galatians that PauL converted were Celtic. They established themselves there in Asia Minor 300 years before Christ. They still traded with their own kin back in Britain and the gospel, along with the Christian scriptures, went with those traders. All 100s of years before the Roman church was a church.

I'm glad you brought this up because I think it's a very important point you are making and I'm thankful for it. First off you need to understand the term Roman Catholic Church. In this forum often it is used in a derogatory manner, which is the actual origins of the term oddly enough. You ask a Roman Catholic what they are.... they do not answer "I'm a Roman Catholic" they answer I am Catholic. So lets jog down history lane a little bit.

Roman Catholic (Term)

While the term "Roman", as in the "Roman Church", has been attested since the Middle Ages – often connoting the local particular church of the Diocese of Rome – the first known occurrence of "Roman Catholic" as a synonym for "Catholic Church" was in communication with the Armenian Apostolic Church in 1208, after the East–West Schism.[1][2]

Following the pejorative term "papist", attested in English since 1534,[3] the terms "Popish Catholic" and "Romish Catholic" came into use during the Protestant Reformation. During the 17th century, "Roman Catholic Church" was often used as a synonym for the Catholic Church, especially where Protestants and Anglicans dominated demographically. Although its usage has since changed over the centuries, the name continued to be widely used in English-speaking countries,[4] including the United States.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholic_(term)

Catholic (Term)

The word catholic (with lowercase c; derived via Late Latin catholicus, from the Greek adjective καθολικός (katholikos), meaning "universal"[1][2]) comes from the Greek phrase καθόλου (katholou), meaning "on the whole", "according to the whole" or "in general", and is a combination of the Greek words κατά meaning "about" and ὅλος meaning "whole".[3][4] The term Catholic (usually written with uppercase C in English) was first used to describe the Christian Church in the early 2nd century to emphasize its universal scope. In the context of Christian ecclesiology, it has a rich history and several usages.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_(term)

Okay so lets go back to your point. All the churches that were established by the apostles (including Paul) were all catholic Churches, meaning they were all of the one universal faith. You question if they were under Romes authority, I would say they were under the authority of the apostles with Peter being the head of the apostles. Look at Acts 15 we see this authority being exercised, first Peter speaks than James and in the letter they send it starts off with invoking the authority of the Holy Spirit. I would also like to point out that all the churches you point to all submitting to the teachings of the apostles... submitting to one holy catholic teaching. The first time the church was mentioned as being catholic was in 107AD

Ignatius of Antioch

The earliest recorded evidence of the use of the term "Catholic Church" is the Letter to the Smyrnaeans that Ignatius of Antioch wrote in about 107 to Christians in Smyrna. Exhorting Christians to remain closely united with their bishop, he wrote: "Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church."[12][13][14]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_(term)#Ignatius_of_Antioch

What I find interesting is that he did not have to explain what he meant by catholic church and he declares "whereever Jesus Chirst is, there is the catholic Church". When he says catholic he is using the meaning universal, well that is no different today. The Catholic Church is the universal Church that Jesus founded. Within that Church are rites and the Latin rite (Roman) is the most visible of all the rites within the Church. The Churches Thomas built up in india are:

• Malankarese – Catholics from the South of India evangelized by St. Thomas, uses the West Syriac liturgy. Reunited with Rome in 1930. Liturgical languages today are West Syriac and Malayalam. The 350,000 Malankarese Catholics are found in India and North America.

https://www.ewtn.com/expert/answers/catholic_rites_and_churches.htm

I think I covered your response, if I missed a point that you want addressed I will. Please keep in mind, Roman Catholic is not a denomination is a rite and is in full communion with the Catholic Church. There are 22 different churches (rites) that are in communion with the Catholic Church and the Latin rite (Roman) is just one of twenty-two.

Cheers