Defense of Post-Trib Post-wrath Rapture and 2nd coming

[BobRyan]

My Post trib position (and the Bible post-trib) is also post-wrath rapture (i.e --2nd coming) -- is clear in this text.

Post-trib:

Matthew 24

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days... He will send forth His angels to gather His elect" Matt 24

 

Post wrath:

1 Thess 4 "the dead in Christ rise FIRST"

Rev 21 "This is the FIRST resurrection..blessed and holy is he who has part in the FIRST resurrection over THESE the second death has no power"

Rev 19 is the 2nd coming - rapture and resurrection of the saints. It is after the 7 last plagues wrath of Rev 16.

 

Keys to Bible prophecy

A. All Bible timelines are contiguous -- just like Daniel 9:1-7 points out - with the 70 years of Jeremiah.

B. All apocalyptic timelines use day-for-year symbolism just like the Daniel 9 seventy week (490 day) prophecy of Daniel. .So also the 2300 days of Daniel 8, and 1260 days of Daniel 7, and Rev 11, 12,13

C. Later writers use the symbols employed by earlier writers - assuming that the reader is already informed about symbols previously explained.

 

Note:

There is another thread on the post-trib position but I failed to notice that it is pre-wrath. So I think I mistakenly posted thinking it was "post-trib and or post-wrath" when it was post-trib and also pre-wrath on that other thread. Which is not my view.

Edited July 8, 2017 by BobRyan

[Keras]

OK Bob, so the angels will 'gather the elect'. When does this happen and where is Jesus then?

1 Thess 4:16b, says: the dead in Christ will rise first.......   But I submit to you that they will only be the martyrs killed during the Great Trib. Proved by Revelation 20:4     Note carefully that the prophecy by Paul does NOT say 'all the Christian dead'.  And those alive, who will be taken to where Jesus will be; that is; in Jerusalem, are not given immortal or anything other that natural, earthly bodies at that time. Any diffferent ideas are added to scripture by those who hold to the false rapture to heaven theory.

Revelation 20:5 The rest of the dead do not come to life again until the thousand years are ended.

[BobRyan]

On 6/8/2017 at 11:58 PM, Keras said:

OK Bob, so the angels will 'gather the elect'. When does this happen and where is Jesus then?

 

He is appearing the sky - all the earth sees him. "Son of man coming in the clouds of the sky" - in the air

Matthew 24

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days... He will send forth His angels to gather His elect" Matt 24

More detail - same chapter.

²⁹ “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. ³⁰ And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. ³¹ And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

 

1 Thess 4

⁵ For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. ¹⁶ For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. ¹⁷ Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air

 

[Marilyn C]

On ‎9‎/‎06‎/‎2017 at 11:21 AM, BobRyan said:

My Post trib position (and the Bible post-trib) is also post-wrath rapture (i.e --2nd coming) -- is clear in this text.

 

Post-trib:

Matthew 24

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days... He will send forth His angels to gather His elect" Matt 24

 

 

Hi BobRyan,

You would need to show who these elect are from scripture. Israel is also the Lord`s elect.

Marilyn.

[BobRyan]

On 6/9/2017 at 10:53 PM, Marilyn C said:

Hi BobRyan,

You would need to show who these elect are from scripture. Israel is also the Lord`s elect.

Marilyn.

Everyone on Earth in all of time who accepts the Messiah - accepts Christ as savior , accepts the Gospel  - will be among the elect of Matthew 24.

Everyone in Israel who accepts the Messiah - accepts Christ as savior , accepts the Gospel  - will be among the elect of Matthew 24 as well.

 

'He is NOT a Jew who is one outwardly but he is a Jew who is one Inwardly' Romans 2.

[BobRyan]

Since this ended up being post-trib post-wrath point being made -- adding it here

 

4 hours ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

I have to laugh a little but just a little. Every pretrib passage? There are none!

There is "the rub" as they say.

 

Post trib - "Immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days... He will send forth His angels to gather His elect" -- Matthew 24

 

So we HAVE the text for post-trib. And nothing of the sort for pre-trib. And yet the pre-trib argument tries out endless arguments to dismiss the text that actually tells us it is post-trib will injecting massive 'proof-by-inference' everywhere else it can to try to inject pre-trib into the Bible.

Even in Revelation - the "FIRST resurrection" Rev 20:4-5 is at the Rev 19 SECOND COMING event. And "the dead in Christ rise FIRST" 1 Thess 4 ... it is they alone who are the "blessed and holy" in Rev 20:4-5 FIRST resurrection "over THESE the 2nd death has no power".

[BobRyan]

On 6/8/2017 at 9:21 PM, BobRyan said:

 

 

Post-trib:

Matthew 24

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days... He will send forth His angels to gather His elect" Matt 24

 

Post wrath:

 

1 Thess 4 "the dead in Christ rise FIRST"

Rev 21 "This is the FIRST resurrection..blessed and holy is he who has part in the FIRST resurrection over THESE the second death has no power"

 

Rev 19 is the 2nd coming - rapture and resurrection of the saints. It is after the 7 last plagues wrath of Rev 16.

 

There is another thread on the post-trib position but I failed to notice that it is pre-wrath. So I think I mistakenly posted thinking it was "post-trib and or post-wrath" when it was post-trib and also pre-wrath on that other thread. Which is not my view.

That is the only one that works

God has had his elect in every age - and it is the elect of all ages that is the only explanation satisfying the context for Matthew 24

 

 

Keys to Bible prophecy

A. All Bible timelines are contiguous -- just like Daniel 9:1-7 points out - with the 70 years of Jeremiah.

B. All apocalyptic timelines use day-for-year symbolism just like the Daniel 9 seventy week (490 day) prophecy of Daniel. .So also the 2300 days of Daniel 8, and 1260 days of Daniel 7, and Rev 11, 12,13

C. Later writers use the symbols employed by earlier writers - assuming that the reader is already informed about symbols previously explained.

Edited July 8, 2017 by BobRyan

[iamlamad]

How amazing that God is not allowed to have any other "gathering" but what people jump on it like a bull dog on a bone, and imagine it MUST BE Paul's rapture.

I ask you: what if God wanted to gather the Jews and take them all back to Israel? Is He not allowed to do that? What is man that any should tell God He cannot write of any other "gathering?"

Where are the dead in Christ?  They are in heaven, but their bodies are under the earth. In Paul's rapture, the bodies fly up out of the graves and the spirit/soul that came with Jesus will once again join with the body and each believer will be whole again. So WHEN in this scenario are they gathered? AFTER they fly up out of the ground. They will be gathered from around the earth.

Where are the live in Christ? Of course in the surface of the earth. As soon as the dead fly up out of their graves, those alive in Christ will fly up and TOGETHER they will be gathered. That is Paul's "gathering." His gathering comes from earth. No part of his gathering will come from heaven. That part will have happened far before Paul's gathering. Paul's gathering is entirely earthly.

Yet when we study this gathering that comes after the days of GT, we discover it gathers from the farthest parts of heaven to the farthest parts of earth. Sorry, but this simply cannot describe Paul's rapture. It therefore MUST BE a different gathering.

As a clincher, Paul's rapture MUST come before REv. 19 so the Bride will be at her heavenly marriage and supper.

As a double clincher, John SAW the raptured church in heaven (Rev. 7) before he begins the 70th week.

As a triple clincher, In Paul's rapture dialog, he tells us that God will NOT set any appointments for us with His wrath. And John shows His wrath starting at the 6th seal, which fits perfectly with John showing us the raptured church in heaven right after start of the Day of the Lord.