Dear Conservative Evangelical Christian, Is This The Darkness You’ve Become?

[Sower]

For some reason, this guy reminds me of boot camp. We all joined up, and accepted how hard it was to become a defender of the country. But a few  of the recruits, when finding out how much it was going cost them, climbed the fence, AWOL. Decided to do their own thing, much more popular. And easier. (No rules/no standard) .....................In Him,  Who is Semper Fidelis

[No124get1952]

Semper Fi, Gary...17 years as a squid here.

 

It is easy to become offended when you read many of these posts. I choose NOT to be offended. Why? Simply because Jesus said we as Christians would be an offense to the world....and that is exactly what is happening. Because the Church, as a whole, has chosen a focus other than the strict preaching and teaching of the Word, we have become salt trampled under foot. I lay no accusations at any specific person or ministry. We are ALL at fault because we did not pursue Jesus like He pursued us. Doctrine is another word for manmade rules of interpretation...which I agree are pointless and anti-faith. Reading and studying the Word of God and then preaching what we find, according to the leading of the Holy Spirit (which is His function, to lead us into all truth) is the way to go.

Look, some of us get waaaaay to serious about this. I know blasphemy in the church is rampant. I know it's bad enough for God to write Ichabod over many churches. But I choose to pray, fast and love on everybody regardless. I choose to let God be Sovereign.

[simplejeff]

17 minutes ago, Davida said:

Maybe I lucked out and I've somehow miraculously escaped getting "burned" by a church.

Buckle up !  (HANG ON TIGHT)

[Sower]

41 minutes ago, simplejeff said:

Buckle up !  (HANG ON TIGHT)

What does that mean? Is that an encouragement?   A prophesy?  Besides the church I attend, I know many solid loving bible preaching churches. And just like Davida, I've not been burnt. Mostly encouraged. Normal ups and downs, like any family of so many personalities. (Look at this forum of adult  believers, we have to have moderators to keep the peace)  Any body of believers will suffer loss when so many are leaving, looking for that better church, instead of trying to help and deal with problems as God has instructed in His word.  I remember something in the bible about the end times and the great falling away. More and more Christians going AWOL..................

[nebula]

7 hours ago, Zemke said:

There is a good number of people burned by churches and none of our gatherings are perfect and I know you know these things. The hard part is moving on after the hurt, the pain, the ranting and what is many times betrayal. We can pigeon hole ourselves and seems to me IMO he is just that.

This guy makes some points and that's the hook, tapping into the emotions. The mantra "those that have an ear" is repulsive in my book, he attempts to sound scriptural but brings no conviction, correction, the way forward.

He has taken what many of us have gone thru and made a spectacle and foundation for fellowship out of it. We can not have unity under what we are against. We must have unity under truth and what we are for, and truth leads us to love and unity with Christ and one another. Our hands need to be put into the hands of Jesus and to forgive and pray for those from our past that have hurt us. Not make it a precept for gathering together.

At first having fellowship with others that have been hurt is okay but at some point the past needs to be just that, the past. It took me years to move forward even knowing I must. It isn't easy but with God all things are possible.

He seems to be building a collective out of pain and hate, not sure what good can come from it unless he is also preaching the way forward. The love of Jesus in truth.

 

Thank-you, Zemke! Probably the best evaluation yet.

It's hard to find ways to explain the the Evangelical community that we need to clean house. I guess I'll have to keep looking.

[nebula]

12 minutes ago, Cobalt1959 said:

You can't always know you are going to get burned in a church going in.  It might change Pastors.  It might start a slow creep into bad doctrine areas.  A clique might monopolize the church.  The reasons are myriad.  Like someone else said earlier, every church is messed up to some degree because it has people in it.

Except it wasn't just "one church." It was several churches, several ministries, several movements, .... I then began to see that there were underlying beliefs that were opening the doors to corruption, abuse, self-righteousness, the spirit of religion (the bad kind), etc. (And I'm not talking about the Gospel message-focus part.) 

[Sower]

7 hours ago, Zemke said:

There is a good number of people burned by churches and none of our gatherings are perfect and I know you know these things. The hard part is moving on after the hurt, the pain, the ranting and what is many times betrayal. We can pigeon hole ourselves and seems to me IMO he is just that.

This guy makes some points and that's the hook, tapping into the emotions. The mantra "those that have an ear" is repulsive in my book, he attempts to sound scriptural but brings no conviction, correction, the way forward.

He has taken what many of us have gone thru and made a spectacle and foundation for fellowship out of it. We can not have unity under what we are against. We must have unity under truth and what we are for, and truth leads us to love and unity with Christ and one another. Our hands need to be put into the hands of Jesus and to forgive and pray for those from our past that have hurt us. Not make it a precept for gathering together.

At first having fellowship with others that have been hurt is okay but at some point the past needs to be just that, the past. It took me years to move forward even knowing I must. It isn't easy but with God all things are possible.

He seems to be building a collective out of pain and hate, not sure what good can come from it unless he is also preaching the way forward. The love of Jesus in truth.

I also think you hit the nail on the head, Zemke. I was also repulsed by the "Those that have an ear" It stirred my flesh. As did the whole thing. I saw some of the same thing going on as much as twenty five years ago, a few friends and an uncle suddenly were running down their churches, starting going to home gatherings, holding services in small groups. Was invited to one that had  a special  guest speaker attending, in a house full of people. My friend who attended with me questioned this speaker in the middle of his lecture, asking  " What must you do to get saved" He evaded the question, then was ask again. His answer was a whole new philosophy, at which point my friend said  "you are of your father the devil"   We were ask to leave, I lost fellowship with my uncle, and many friends. The home church dissolved eventually. This was my first encounter with blatant false doctrine preached and accepted by what I thought were solid Christians. Scary........................But.

2Ti 1:12  For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.  Hold fast the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.

[Marilyn C]

On ‎13‎/‎06‎/‎2017 at 8:39 AM, nebula said:

*Disclaimer - I do not agree with the man's underlying theology. However, I can sympathize with several points he makes. Please don't throw the baby out with the bathwater, so to speak, in reading this. I have been burned by Evangelicalism as it is practiced and preached. For all the good, there's carnage, and we need to stop excusing the carnage and accept that perhaps we have gotten off course. Food for thought. In our crusade for the Cross, have we made an idol out of it?

Hi nebula,

Good topic and one that needs to be discussed. The writer had some good points and then some of his own theology thrown in.

Personally I have not really been burned, as I did not expect perfection. I knew the failings and weaknesses of the public meetings organised by man and worked where I could. However over time I realised that with my limited strength (CFS) I desired to spend my time and strength discipling, mentoring others. The Lord brought different ones to me and over time we have prayed, read & studied God`s word & fellowshipped together. Now they are mentoring others who in turn are reaching out to others.

So, no building, no need for money and time to be spent upholding it, just the day to day activity of walking with the Holy Spirit, being encouraged and being an encouragement to the `network` of believers we have around us.

What really is being challenged today is `who is Head of the Body,` the organisation or the Lord. People tend to think that if you do not go & sit in a pew then you are not helping the church, as though the public meeting is THE CHURCH. The believers, daily sharing their lives with each other & others around them in THE CHURCH, the called out ones. That is where people of the world actually see the life of Christ demonstrated. That is where the flow of the Holy Spirit moves through your life and out to a hurting world. That is where we are accountable with our money to use it to help others and not maintain comfy buildings. And that is - our daily lives.

People say they can do both - public meetings and out in the world. However when people do that they tend to have a hook, (come to our meeting) & people of the world see it. Also when going to a public meeting, it can lull the need to go out, as one can feel they have done their God duty etc.

Just my thoughts and experiences. Marilyn.

[Zemke]

13 hours ago, nebula said:

Thank-you, Zemke! Probably the best evaluation yet.

It's hard to find ways to explain the the Evangelical community that we need to clean house. I guess I'll have to keep looking.

 

13 hours ago, Gary Lee said:

I also think you hit the nail on the head, Zemke. I was also repulsed by the "Those that have an ear" It stirred my flesh. As did the whole thing. I saw some of the same thing going on as much as twenty five years ago, a few friends and an uncle suddenly were running down their churches, starting going to home gatherings, holding services in small groups. Was invited to one that had  a special  guest speaker attending, in a house full of people. My friend who attended with me questioned this speaker in the middle of his lecture, asking  " What must you do to get saved" He evaded the question, then was ask again. His answer was a whole new philosophy, at which point my friend said  "you are of your father the devil"   We were ask to leave, I lost fellowship with my uncle, and many friends. The home church dissolved eventually. This was my first encounter with blatant false doctrine preached and accepted by what I thought were solid Christians. Scary........................But.

2Ti 1:12  For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.  Hold fast the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.

Well praise God we had an ear, for why and how sometimes I wonder. But He is faithful and we need to pay attention.

This shouldn't be surprising or unexpected actually, we know things will get bad and we should hold dear to what fellowship we have with people who love the Lord no matter how small or large, a few good brothers or sisters or many. As long as there are watchmen willing to stick their necks out to preserve and strengthen what remains, any size fellowship, denomination or splinter of a denomination will see clearly as much as is possible anyway.

Proverbs 18: 1,2 kept me searching for a group of believers when I was pigeon holing myself, I really didn't think my attitude was like the attitude we are speaking about but once I started being discipled again among believers who love Jesus I realized I had a portion of hate and bitterness I needed to let go of. A wilderness experience is not a bad thing but when God is done with us in the wilderness we need to move on.

"He who separates himself seeks his own desire. He quarrels against all sound wisdom. A fool does not delight in understanding, but only in revealing his own mind."

 

 

 

[Willa]

 We moved on to a place of personal growth.  It was about putting up with the insults and injuries of others, and forbearing them in love.  Eph 4:1  (1-6) Wuest  I beg of you, please, therefore, I, the prisoner in the Lord, order your behavior in a manner worthy of the divine summons with which you were called, with every lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, bearing with one another in love, doing your best to safeguard the unanimity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. There is one Body and one Spirit, even as also you were called in one hope of your calling, one Lord, one Faith, one placing into (baptism), one God and Father of all, the One above all and through all and in all.  

Too often when we aren't allowed into a clique, or someone has a bad attitude toward us and shoots down what we say, or if we are falsely accused or insulted, it hurts our pride.  We don't even consider that God wants that pride, that old man, to die a painful death.  Instead we run away and don't endure the chastening of the Lord.  But we can't escape the dealings of the Lord so we are apt to keep enduring these things, these rejections and feeling sorry for ourselves until we stop kicking and screaming when God pokes us.  When we say "be it done to me according to Your will" and take the insults graciously, giving a soft answer, and determine to be a better friend to them, maybe we are on the way to dying to self.    I can't say I have overcome in this area or I would't still feel wounded or tender when poked.  But I do know that God wants me to yield the peaceable fruit of righteousness.  And that I am to strengthen my feeble knees and move on without bitterness.  God wants us to grow up into the maturity of Christ.  There is a purpose for all this abuse.  We are to be crucified with Christ.  We are to identify with His sufferings.