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ERRORS of the POST-TRIB. view.


Marilyn C

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18 hours ago, n2thelight said:

So like I keep asking,when did this imminence start?

Exactly when did the Coming of Christ and the Resurrection / Catching-away BECOME imminent? There had to be a time when it was not imminent (before the Cross for example) and then there had to have come a moment when it was now imminent. Exactly when was that moment; when did the rapture BECOME imminent?

 

 Jesus said Peter would die as an old man, therefor the Resurrection / Catching-away could NOT happen until this prophesy was fulfilled.

Paul died about the same time as Peter. This means the Resurrection / Catching away was NOT imminent during the span of Paul’s ministry to the Body of Christ, and therefor God did NOT reveal to him any such thing! It was not a possibility until the death of Peter!

Paul would NOT (under the unction of the Holy Spirit) have taught as doctrine to his followers something that could not possibly happen, nor would he have included this concept in his writings to them. The Scriptures were penned by God himself using holy men as vessels. God does not lie, nor does his Word! It would have been a lie to teach and promote as imminent something NOT possible in his lifetime, amd the Holy Spirit would not have guided Paul to state a falsehood in his writings to the Church!

To say God revealed to Paul the rapture was ‘imminent’ is a lie!

To say the Apostle Paul believed this doctrine is a lie.

To say Paul taught this doctrine to his followers is a lie.

To say Paul wrote his letters that we know as Scripture with this notion presented in them is a lie.

To say the Coming of Christ for the Church has been imminent for two thousand years is a lie.

To say the Coming of Christ for the Church is now imminent is a lie.

The Return of Jesus to catch us away will not be imminent until ALL prophesies that prevent it are fulfilled. The doctrine of the ‘Imminent Return’ is not from the Bible; The Bible refutes such a notion.

https://pbenson.me/2016/05/06/bible-proof-the-rapture-theory-is-false/

Shalom, n2thelight.

Did you ever hear of the Hangman's Paradox? Wikipedia states it like this:

Quote

 

A judge tells a condemned prisoner that he will be hanged at noon on one weekday in the following week but that the execution will be a surprise to the prisoner. He will not know the day of the hanging until the executioner knocks on his cell door at noon that day.

Having reflected on his sentence, the prisoner draws the conclusion that he will escape from the hanging. His reasoning is in several parts. He begins by concluding that the "surprise hanging" can't be on Friday, as if he hasn't been hanged by Thursday, there is only one day left - and so it won't be a surprise if he's hanged on Friday. Since the judge's sentence stipulated that the hanging would be a surprise to him, he concludes it cannot occur on Friday.

He then reasons that the surprise hanging cannot be on Thursday either, because Friday has already been eliminated and if he hasn't been hanged by Wednesday noon, the hanging must occur on Thursday, making a Thursday hanging not a surprise either. By similar reasoning he concludes that the hanging can also not occur on Wednesday, Tuesday or Monday. Joyfully he retires to his cell confident that the hanging will not occur at all.

The next week, the executioner knocks on the prisoner's door at noon on Wednesday — which, despite all the above, was an utter surprise to him. Everything the judge said came true.

 

Your reasoning is very similar. The problem is that a "logician" could compare the first part of the week against Friday, but not Thursday and so on. He could compare Friday to NON-Friday (all four of the other weekdays as a unit) but no other reasoning will work. 

I don't believe in the Rapture as it is espoused by Pre-trib Rapturists, but neither do I discard the term. I DO believe in a Rapture of sorts; that is, I believe that God will snatch us away after the dead in the Messiah have been raised to life, but I do NOT believe that ANYONE goes up to "Heaven," not before the "Tribulation," not in the middle of the "Tribulation," and not even at the end of the "Tribulation." I also do not believe in a "seven years of Tribulation." 

To the contrary, when we are "Raptured," we are taken to where the Lord Yeshua` will go AFTER He has returned - Israel - through the "heaven"; that is, the "sky." When Yeshua` the Messiah of God, Anointed TO BE KING, returns, He will be ZEALOUS for Israel; He will be a "MAN ON A MISSION!" At that time, Israel will be on the receiving end of an attempt at genocide! And, being in a corner, they will cry out to God and His Messiah, even if He turns out to be Yeshua` from Natsaret. And, desperation may be the ONLY thing that changes their stubborn minds!

There are things that need to happen before Yeshua` returns that have absolutely nothing to do with Gentile believers, other than the fact that they will be on the receiving end of blessings when He returns. They can do nothing to hurry Him along, or to hold Him back! He will return when GOD, Yeshua`s Father and ours, says it's time, and not before. Thus, from our perspective, He could come AT ANY TIME! That's "IMMINENCE!"

The children of Israel in their homeland are SURROUNDED by those who mean them harm. Most of the Muslim world would like to "drive them into the sea," and take their land! With Syria and Lebanon to the north and Egypt to the south and Jordan and Iraq and Iran to the east, and the new Philistines (Palestinians) within, there's not much "holding the dogs at bay!" One trigger, and it could all start! That's "IMMINENCE!" Whether Israel starts it by building the Temple, or some other factor or factors are involved, all it would take is a PERCEIVED threat to Islam, a PERCEIVED slander to Muhammed, a PERCEIVED insult to the Muslim's god, Allah - a blasphemy, and the attacks could come. The Muslim are NOT a rational people! How long it would take after that, who but God knows?

Edited by Retrobyter
I forgot a group
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18 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Retro,

`...for this Hagar is mount in Sinai, in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children..`(Gal. 4: 25) 

That is quite clearly Jerusalem of our day. It is still under the law. Now can you show me this other Jerusalem that is free and that has made us free?

Marilyn.

Shalom, Marilyn.

Well, it was Jerusalem in Paul's day, but it's not Jerusalem that is in bondage; it's HAGAR who is in bondage! It was Mount Sinai in Arabia that was in bondage! You've got to follow Paul's logic!

The Greek word translated "corresponds" is "sustoichei," the third-person, singular form of the present tense, indicative mood, active voice of ...

NT:4960 sustoicheoo (soos-toy-kheh'-o); from NT:4862 and NT:4748; to file together (as soldiers in ranks), i.e. (figuratively) to correspond to:
KJV - answer to.

NT:4862 sun (soon); a primary preposition denoting union; with or together (but much closer than NT:3326 or NT:3844), i.e. by association, companionship, process, resemblance, possession, instrumentality, addition, etc.:
KJV - beside, with. In composition it has similar applications, including completeness.

NT:4748 stoicheoo (stoy-kheh'-o); from a derivative of steichoo (to range in regular line); to march in (military) rank (keep step), i.e. (figuratively) to conform to virtue and piety:
KJV - walk (orderly).

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

Today, we might say, "marches together with." Thus, the verse would say,

`...for this Hagar is mount in Sinai, in Arabia, and marches together with Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children..`(Gal. 4: 25) 

Remember, too, that the rules of ENGLISH (since it is a translation into English) state that the object of a preposition does NOT perform the action of the verb NOR receives the action of a reflexive verb! That comma is VERY important; it offsets the clause "which now is" from the rest of the sentence.

In Greek, the verb "douleuei" is in the same form, mood, tense, and voice as "sustoichei"; therefore, the two verbs point to the same subject, which in this case is "to Hagar." It most definitely does NOT apply to "Ierousaleem" or "Jerusalem!"

There's NOT a comparison between two Jerusalems! It's a comparison between two mountains, one of which is that upon which Jerusalem was built! It was upon Mount Sinai that the First Covenant that leads to bondage was made; it was upon Mount Zion (where Jerusalem is built) upon which the Savior died that the New Covenant that leads to freedom was made!

Edited by Retrobyter
to fix a noun-verb agreement
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12 hours ago, Yowm said:

Romans 11:1-7 esp vs 5 is speaking of the elect of Israel, i.e. Those Jews who turn to their Messiah...sometimes called 'a remnant'.

Why do you assume the Elect are Jew's?

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12 hours ago, Swords99 said:

What else is left on the prophetic timeline if not the rapture? The Jews are already setting things up for the new temple to be built. They’ve got the priests’ garments hanging on mannequins. They’ve got all the shovels for all the altars. They’ve got everything ready.  So, as soon as that Temple is built it’ll be a matter of hours and they’ll re-establish Temple worship.

Rapture is false

The one world government is next,satan coming pretending to Christ,is after that.

Christ will not come until after those two.

Only those who think they are in Christ can be deceived,as the rest of the world already belong to satan.

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3 hours ago, Blueyedjewel said:

Here is the true chronological order of events, exactly the way that God arranged them in his word:

* You are Here! :P

* The gathering of the church

The Wrath of God:

1st Seal - The revealing of the antichrist
2nd Seal - Peace taken from the earth so that men kill each other
3rd Seal - World-wide famine causing food to be high priced
4th Seal - One fourth of the earths population killed as a result of the previous seals
5th Seal - Martyrs under the alter in heaven
6Th Seal - Great earthquake, sun darkened, moon blood red, stars fall to the earth
7th Seal - Angels receive their trumpets, prayers of the saints go up before God

---- 1st Trumpet - A third of the earth and trees are burned up
---- 2nd Trumpet - A third of the creatures die, a third of the ships destroyed
---- 3rd Trumpet - A third of the fresh water contaminated, many people die from drinking
---- 4th Trumpet - Sun, moon and stars are darkened so that a third of the light is missing
---- 5th Trumpet - Demonic beings are released from the Abyss to torment the inhabitants
---- 6th Trumpet - A third of mankind is killed by the four angels and the army of 200 million
---- 7th Trumpet - Satan and his angels are thrown out of heaven and restricted to the earth

---------- 1st Bowl - Painful, ugly sores break out on those who receive the mark of the beast
---------- 2nd Bowl - The sea is turned into literal blood
---------- 3rd Bowl - The rivers and fresh water are turned into literal blood
---------- 4th Bowl - The sun scorches people with intense heat, searing them
---------- 5th Bowl - The beasts kingdom is plunged into darkness
---------- 6th Bowl - The Euphrates is dried up, demons gather for kings for Armageddon
---------- 7th Bowl - Strongest earthquake ever, hail stones from 75 to 100 lbs. fall

* Jesus returns to the earth to end the age and establish His thousand year reign

* The beast and the false prophet are captured and thrown alive into the lake of fire

* Satan is seize and thrown into the Abyss during Christ thousand year reign

* The great tribulation saints are resurrected

* Millennial period

That is the correct chronological order of events

Blessings :)

Seals trumps and vials happen at the same time,ie

5th seal trump and vial ,6th seal trump and vial,and 7th sesl trump and vial,all happen at the same time...

Edited by n2thelight
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5 hours ago, fixerupper said:

Yes I misread the post.  My apologies.  

you write with a to intelligent hand for me to think otherwise :thumbsup: 

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deleted by me

Edited by n2thelight
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33 minutes ago, n2thelight said:

Seals trumps and vials happen at the same time,ie

5th seal trump and vial ,6th seal trump and vial,and 7th sesl trump and vial,all happen at the same time...

What leads you to come to that conclusion? Provide scripture plz

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19 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi wingnut,

I too am enjoying our discussion. The earthly nation of Israel is still under bondage, under the law. And yes the heavenly Jerusalem with Munt Zion is the mother, the source of our freedom in Christ by the Holy Spirit. And yes, I believe, for all believers.

regards, Marilyn.

 

Hello again Marilyn,

So would you agree that the two covenants are summarized by the distinction between those who live under the law as unbelievers, and those who are part of the second covenant are those who have accepted Jesus or believers?  I imagine we agree that anyone under the law is going to come up on the wrong side at the GWTJ.

God bless

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4 hours ago, fixerupper said:

That's you're rendition of the order of events.  Kind of vague for me.  The gathering takes place first?  Where?  In Revelation 4:1?

What I posted is chronological with the church at he top.. The church is not mentioned at all after rev 3. Then not again until 19. Next event is the rapture. Where? Everywhere!  The church is sprinkled out all over the globe I imagine . Hope that clears it up.

blessings

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