ERRORS of the POST-TRIB. view.

[fixerupper]

55 minutes ago, Swords99 said:

Hi fixxerupper, I don't have everything figured out. I'm still learning.  I totally agree with you that God can't enlightened a closed mind. We must allow the scriptures to teach us and not force our beliefs into the texts.

Of course we should use the resources available to us. They can be a great blessing. But we must use sober judgment on what we read and rely on. Do a google search on 'should Christians use lexicons and concordances' and you will get sites that explains some of the dangers of not choosing wisely. Lexicons only enables translation, not interpretation.

If we read 20 different books/commentators on the Book of Revelation, we're going to get a myriad of opinions on pre, mid and post trib. One is more likely to choose those authors that one agrees with because 'familiarity' makes sense. This will make it hard to see errors.

Isn't it more wise to see what the whole Bible says on it? We can look at Daniel and some of the other OT scriptures with Revelation and see that it's one unfolding prophecy.

We can understand the Bible. Context is important. Knowing who is writing, the audience, circumstances and why the author is writing to them. It does help to look up the Greek sometimes to get the fuller meaning.

The Holy Scriptures must be our final authority.

I do commend you for the time and effort you put in studying. God bless.

 

 

Quote

Lexicons only enables translation, not interpretation.

The lexicons were made for both.  I can use the lexicons to write a bible or interpret it.  The KJV often has big mistakes that I discover only in the lexicons.

[Swords99]

56 minutes ago, fixerupper said:

Marilyn said,

You can look at Romans 11:28 but it does no good understanding the elect of Mathew 24:31.  Romans 11 has has no bearing how we should interpret the word EKLEKTOS in Mathew.  Rom. 11:28 is simply saying how even though Israel appears to be the enemy of Christ, they are still loved for the sake of their fathers election. It's basic common sense that Romans 11:28 is talking about Israel, but not the rapture or the elect of Mathew 24.  If God wanted Mathew to convey the message that ISREAL was the focus of Mathew 24:31 he would have used the same words in Mathew 24 as he did in Romans 11.  

The word "election"  (eklogē) is also used to describe CHRISTIANS too 4 out of 6 times, but that actually doesn't matter.  What does matter is that the word elect in Mathew 24:31 is ALWAYS used to describe Christians and NOT USED ONCE to describe Jews or Israel.

Romans 11:28 isn't talking about the 'elect' mentioned in Mathew 24, so it's bad hermeneutics and actually a fabrication to counter and cover up a contradiction. That contradiction being that the elect of Mathew 24 is Israel when 100% of the evidence says IT IS NOT.

The word 'eklogē' is used in Romans 11:28 (but not in Mathew 24).  It's used 6 times in the New Testament and FOUR of those times the word is used to describe CHRISTIANS!
https://www.blueletterbible.org/search/search.cfm?Criteria=election*+G1589&t=KJV#s=s_primary_0_1
This is the word elect used in Mathew 24:31...
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?strongs=G1588&t=KJV

Strong's definition....

picked out, chosen
chosen by God,
to obtain salvation through Christ
Christians are called "chosen or elect" of God
the Messiah is called "elect", as appointed by God to the most exalted office conceivable
choice, select, i.e. the best of its kind or class, excellence preeminent: applied to certain individual Christians.

____________________
Take a look at these verses where EKLEKTOS is used.  Every one of them implies Christians NOT ISRAEL.
Matthew 20:16
John 13:18, 15:16
Acts 15:22, 15:25
Romans 8:33, 16:13
1 Corinthians 1:27-28
Ephesians 1:4
Colossians 3:12
James 2:5
2 Timothy 2:10
Titus 1:1
1 Peter 1:2, 2:9, 5:13
Revelation 17:14

These are the kinds of things that make pre-trib a fabricated nightmare.  This issue is just ONE of many fabrications pre-tribbers have devised.  The reason for this fabrication is that in Mathew 24, Jesus clearly states that the gathering occurs AFTER the tribulation.  So they've ALSO created another rapture and two returns of Christ.  It's an absolute shame that it's as widely accepted as it is.  Pre-trib is the most contradictory, fabricated, and deceitful false doctrine that has has ever entered the church and people still fall for it.

So much misunderstanding in your post. The rapture and the 2nd coming are different events. At the rapture, Christ meets Believers in the air. At the 2nd coming, Christ returns to the Mount of olives to meet Believers on earth. Since the rapture and 2nd coming are 2 different events that do not occur at the same time, this rules out a post trib rapture scenario.

The rapture is described as occurring at anytime without WARNING. The 2nd coming, on the other hand, will be preceded by many events. such as the rebuilding of the temple, peace treaty with Israel, rise of antichrist, etc.

The Tribulation has nothing to do with the church, but God's wrath against the unbelieving world and most especially Israel and their eventual redemption when Christ defeats their enemies and finally be their king and set up His earthly kingdom and rule in Jerusalem.

.

 

Edited June 22, 2017 by Swords99

[fixerupper]

4 hours ago, Swords99 said:

So much misunderstanding in your post. The rapture and the 2nd coming are different events. At the rapture, Christ meets Believers in the air. At the 2nd coming, Christ returns to the Mount of olives to meet Believers on earth. Since the rapture and 2nd coming are 2 different events that do not occur at the same time, this rules out a post trib rapture scenario.

The rapture is described as occurring at anytime without WARNING. The 2nd coming, on the other hand, will be preceded by many events. such as the rebuilding of the temple, peace treaty with Israel, rise of antichrist, etc.

The Tribulation has nothing to do with the church, but God's wrath against the unbelieving world and most especially Israel and their eventual redemption when Christ defeats their enemies and finally be their king and set up His earthly kingdom and rule in Jerusalem.

Actually, I understand pre-trib fabricatios and contradictions quite well.

So do you carry around the list that shows which verses apply to the rapture and those to to the second coming?  You do realize Christ must first go through the clouds in order to set foot on earth?  You do know that the 'parousia' is, "the future visible return from heaven of Jesus, to raise the dead, hold the last judgment, and set up formally and gloriously the kingdom of God?"  You do know that in 2 Thes. 2 the "parousia and the gathering" are found in the same verse and occur at the same time?  

Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

We know from other scriptures that the rapture will occur at a loud trumpet of God, specifically THE LAST TRUMP (I Thess. 4:16; I Cor. 15:23; Rev. 10:7), that angels do the gathering of Christians (Matt. 13:30, 39; Rev. 19:14), that the gathering will take place in the sky (I Thess. 4:17), and that God's elect anywhere else in the New Testament always indicates believers in Jesus, but the pre-tribulationists would lead you to believe that Mathew 24:31 is anything but the rapture of the Church. Why? Because in this instance, the text clearly shows the event to be "after" the tribulation."

The "gathering and the appearance" occur together, at the same time. The events are connected this way. Paul also shows us that the "Appearance" is not pre-tribulational because Paul said the anti-Christ must come first. One wonders how pre-tribbers ignore this straight-forward fact as they read it.

Jesus in Mathew 24 clearly shows the rapture to be "after" the tribulation."  Paul in 2 Thes. 2 clearly states an "apostasy" must first take place and the man of sin must first be revealed.

Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Like I said.  That's the reason why your mentors have devised TWO returns of Christ and TWO raptures.  You can't see that this is a fabrication of the pre=trib camp to counter and cover up their contradiction/mis-interpretation of Paul's and Jesus' words.  

How about this...

If pretrib is the real sensational event you all make it out to be, then there must be at least ONE verse of scripture that claims Christ does return for ANY reason BEFORE tribulation.  Can you quote at least ONE verse showing Christ DOES return before tribulation?

Edited June 22, 2017 by fixerupper

[Guest]

14 hours ago, n2thelight said:

At work,give me a sec..

I'll say this now though,the seals are not in order

Thats alright.  Respectfully, I noticed that you are not aware of the basics ie harpazo ,so I dont think I care to hear of something more entailed. You would just be wasting your time explaining it all out. I dont want to waste your time or mine.

 I have a blessed hope. Im not looking for the antichirst. I am looking for Christ .

 

Blessings

[Marilyn C]

16 hours ago, n2thelight said:

My bad

However I don't feel Heaven needs to be restored,the only problem I see there is satan accusing the saints day and night and that soon will stop,as he shall be cast out.

Can you explain?

Hi n2thelight,

Notice I didn`t say heaven needed to be restored but rulership. I said -

`Now we are talking about the restoration and I said that Christ on His throne in the third heaven is the first rulership to be restored.`

There has been no visible rulership in the third heaven since Lucifer. Rulership there wasn`t an oops, or no one is worthy...... God made every realm and He will have His rulership in each. There has been rebellion in every realm and thus there needs to be restoration of rulership in every realm.

Often our focus is so earthly that we don`t realise the magnitude of God`s great restoration through Christ.

Marilyn.

 

[Marilyn C]

14 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Marilyn.

<Sigh.> Okay, I'll try to do better, if you want to shorten my post, simply reduce the verses down to their references. I don't like to do that myself because the Scriptures are more important than anything I have to say, but in a pinch, you can shorten my message and make it easier to see just what I had to say by doing that. Then, if you can't figure out what I'm driving at, you can always re-examine just that passage of Scripture. I'm only providing the passage for you, usually in its context (to show I'm not pulling it out and using it in a manner contrary to the context) and in full sentences. If you reduce the verses down to their references, you may need to expand them to see what I felt was important in the way I highlighted info.

Regarding "angels," I'll write more, but you cannot START with that as a point on which to build! "Angel" is a transliterated word from Greek (aggelos), and it simply means a "messenger." It doesn't always mean a "supernatural being." In fact, it OFTEN refers to HUMAN messengers! That, too, must be qualified by the context!

 

Hi Retro,

I think n2thelight`s post was even longer.... And yes I do like to write out scriptures too. Yes context and also within the overall of scripture and God`s purposes.

Marilyn.

[Marilyn C]

13 hours ago, fixerupper said:

 

Strong's definition....

picked out, chosen
chosen by God,
to obtain salvation through Christ
Christians are called "chosen or elect" of God
the Messiah is called "elect", as appointed by God to the most exalted office conceivable
choice, select, i.e. the best of its kind or class, excellence preeminent: applied to certain individual Christians.

 

Hi fixerupper,

Israel is also God`s elect, chosen of God, and that is who he was speaking to concerning their future.

Marilyn.

[Marilyn C]

8 hours ago, fixerupper said:

 

If pretrib is the real sensational event you all make it out to be, then there must be at least ONE verse of scripture that claims Christ does return for ANY reason BEFORE tribulation.  Can you quote at least ONE verse showing Christ DOES return before tribulation?

Yes -

`God....may send Jesus  Christ.......whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, of which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began.` (Acts 3: 20 & 21)

Marilyn.

[fixerupper]

Just now, Marilyn C said:

Hi fixerupper,

Israel is also God`s elect, chosen of God, and that is who he was speaking to concerning their future.

Marilyn.

I keep telling you Marilyn that not once does the word elect signify Israel in the NT.  The elect Jesus is refering to is Christians.  Noy Israel.

The Preerist try to pull a similar one saying that, "that generation" is the generation Jesus is talking to.  

[Marilyn C]

Just now, fixerupper said:

I keep telling you Marilyn that not once does the word elect signify Israel in the NT.  The elect Jesus is refering to is Christians.  Noy Israel.

The Preerist try to pull a similar one saying that, "that generation" is the generation Jesus is talking to.  

Jesus is NOT telling Israel whom He calls His elect about another group that was not even in existence then.

Marilyn.