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Marilyn C

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On 6/22/2017 at 0:45 AM, Marilyn C said:

Hi wingnut,

The two covenants - law and grace. However we need to remember that God is merciful and those who never knew of God`s grace, will be judged by how they lived their lives according to their conscience. (Rev. 20: 13)

Blessings, Marilyn. 

 

Hey Marilyn,

Yes, the two covenants, law and grace.  I consider having to face judgement as being on the wrong side of things, but I agree with what you are saying in regards to how they are judged.  However the Lord deals with humanity, I am sure we both agree it will be just.  I'm still not clear on your answer though in regards to the original question, do you see the distinction being made as between belief and unbelief, or no?

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On 6/22/2017 at 1:25 AM, Marilyn C said:

BTW I do not read your long posts, and I wouldn`t think others do either.

 

19 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

<Sigh.> Okay, I'll try to do better, if you want to shorten my post, simply reduce the verses down to their references.

 

Just so you know, I rather enjoy the longer posts when there is scripture in them. :)

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3 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Marilyn.

During the day, I work in construction and have little time to think, let alone talk to others. When I do talk with others, they frequently count me as unimportant, just another peon. Little do they know that they are talking to a child of God who goes by the screen name of "Retrobyter!"

See what I mean? Until one gets into a conversation with someone, they don't know with whom they are dealing!

I'm out of time, but I'll write more later.

Hi Retro,

Thank you for those thoughts. And I do so understand about `the treasure in earthen vessels,` which we are. Nothing to those around but precious to the Lord. Now we don`t agree, at the moment on certain things, but we do love to look at God`s word regarding eschatology, & to discuss it, don`t we.

Blessings bro.

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2 hours ago, wingnut- said:

 

Hey Marilyn,

Yes, the two covenants, law and grace.  I consider having to face judgement as being on the wrong side of things, but I agree with what you are saying in regards to how they are judged.  However the Lord deals with humanity, I am sure we both agree it will be just.  I'm still not clear on your answer though in regards to the original question, do you see the distinction being made as between belief and unbelief, or no?

Hey wingnut,

Yes I agree we would be on the wrong side of judgment if we, having known of God`s grace but turned away. I was just bringing in the other group, those who have never heard of God`s grace, to reveal God`s hand of mercy to all.

For belief and unbelief one would have to have been presented with Christ`s sacrifice for sinners. If one never knew that but lived according to their conscience, then they will be judged on their works. (eg. People in darkest Africa years ago)

regards, Marilyn.

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2 hours ago, wingnut- said:

 

Just so you know, I rather enjoy the longer posts when there is scripture in them. :)

Thanks for telling me. Sorry if I spoke out of turn to Retro.

Marilyn.

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7 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hey wingnut,

Yes I agree we would be on the wrong side of judgment if we, having known of God`s grace but turned away. I was just bringing in the other group, those who have never heard of God`s grace, to reveal God`s hand of mercy to all.

For belief and unbelief one would have to have been presented with Christ`s sacrifice for sinners. If one never knew that but lived according to their conscience, then they will be judged on their works. (eg. People in darkest Africa years ago)

regards, Marilyn.

 

Hey Marilyn,

Thanks again for clarifying.  Just to clarify my response to you, I do understand what you are saying about the other group that will be judged.  I know recently in another area we discussed my native american heritage, so when you mention something like this it makes me think of my ancestors prior to the pilgrims arriving in America.  Native Americans were deeply spiritual people before the gospel message arrived here, and though maybe many of their ways of expressing it are seen as pagan rituals, I am not so sure their hearts were not in the right place.  At any rate, I don't think we disagree on this if I'm understanding you correctly.

 

7 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Thanks for telling me.

 

I may be in the minority on this, but I just wanted to let you know that if you make a long post I will read it. :)   I do agree that long posts which don't include scriptural support don't interest me so much.  I am more interested in what scripture has to say than someone's opinion, if that makes sense.

God bless

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19 hours ago, n2thelight said:

Jeremiah 4:23 "I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light."

God is telling us here exactly what He did to the earth at one time. This was in the first earth age. The earth spoken of here, is the "erets" as given in the Hebrew text. In Strong's Hebrew dictionary # 776.

God is saying that He was so angry before, in that first earth age, that He totally destroyed everything. In the Hebrew, from Genesis 1:2, "tohu va bohu" which means, "without form and void" "And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters."

God said that He did not create the earth a waste land and void, it became that way when God shook it.

Jeremiah 4:24 "I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly."

Imagine all the hills and mountains around this earth moving in one massive earthquake.

Jeremiah 4:25 "I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled."

There was no man, because He destroyed every being on the face of the earth. God destroyed all the birds, and creatures along with man. This is not talking about the flood of Noah, for with the flood of Noah, not only was eight Adamic souls saved but two souls from each race, as well as two of all the animals. Even the Kenites, the sons of Cain came through the flood.

Genesis 6:18 "But with thee will I establish my covenant; and thou shall come into the ark, thou and thy sons, and thy wife, and thy sons' wives with thee."

Genesis 6:19 "And of every living thing of all flesh, two of every sort shalt thou bring into the ark, to keep them alive with thee; they shall be male and female."

Genesis 6:20 "Of fowls after their kind, and of cattle after their kind, of every creeping thing of the earth after his kind, two of every sort shall come unto thee, to keep them alive."

When we look at the plates of the land masses of the earth, it is obvious that there has been a shaking that took place. When Satan fell in that first earth age, there was a flood and destruction that left nothing alive to survive into this earth age. When Noah's flood came God was careful to preserve all flesh, and to take two of every kind aboard the ark. Not only are the animals and birds flesh, but all the races were flesh also, including the Kenites, those sons of Cain.

Jeremiah 4:26 "I beheld, and lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the Lord, and by His fierce anger."

God destroyed all their cities, as well as every man and beast of the field. Did you notice that there were ancient cities in that first earth age. The bible does not disagree that the overthrow took place, and that this earth is millions of years old. However most Bible teachers today say that this earth is only 6,000 years old. Remember what God called those people? Stupid! They can't read the manuscripts, and open their eyes to the evidence around them, and see the truths that God has spoken in His Word.

They like to argue a point in stupidity, and desire to stay away from II Peter 3, where Peter makes it clear that there are three earth ages. They can only understand what sits right before their eyes, and taught in their traditions. Friend, there are many sites scattered all around the earth where there is physical evidence of creatures that existed that are just not in existence today. If the earth is only six thousand years old, why do we have the skeleton remains of so many creatures that roamed the earth far before flesh man was created?

Have you never read the story of the "behemoth" in Job 40:15-19. It is the story of the dinosaurs that roamed the earth millions of years ago, that ate grass like the ox, and had the strength of a cedar tree in his tail. God made this earth to be inhabited, but Satan rebelled and God destroyed the planet.

So many say, why can't we find flesh remains of those men and women that existed then? We are living in the flesh age of man that is common only to this earth age. At the sounding of the seventh and last trumpet, at the coming of the Lord, all flesh will be changed then also, as Paul states in I Corinthians 15:51,-52. "Behold I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed," [51] "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed." [52]

This time is not very far off when all flesh bodies will take on the form of their incorruptible bodies, and the elect of God will also take on their immortality into that incorruptible at that time also. All souls will be in their spiritual bodies then.

Jeremiah 4:27 "For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end."

God is saying that in the end, He will still have a remnant that He will protect. The earth will be rejuvinated at His coming, and it will be a perfect place. When we move into that third Earth Age, that being the Millennium Age and after, there will be no Satan to disrrupt the earth. Science and our Father's Word go together beautifully. It is the minds of some people that like to distort and use personal assumptions that makes it confusing. The Christian world likes to make the Scriptures fit their traditions, while some evolutionists like to build assumptions into their theories that likewise are just as foolish, especially in the sight of what we see around us.

Shalom, n2thelight.

I'm going to address this post first as it is the easier of the two.

It would be wise for you to read the prophecy of Yirmeyahu ("Jeremiah") again in its entirety. I would suggest for this exercise that you pick an English version that's easy to read, such as the NIV, and read it in a single sitting. You'll have to plan for the time, and it will probably take you close to 2 hours to read it, but it will be a valuable exercise. If possible, I would suggest reading it aloud to yourself, if you have the privacy. Should you want to include others, you can let them read part of it while you read the rest, taking turns.

I suggest this exercise because you've got the wrong idea of what Yirmeyahu was saying. For instance, here's the NIV on chapter 4:

Jeremiah 4:1-31
1 "If you will return, O Israel,
return to me,"
declares the LORD.

"If you put your detestable idols out of my sight
and no longer go astray,
2 and if in a truthful, just and righteous way
you swear, 'As surely as the LORD lives,'
then the nations will be blessed by him
and in him they will glory." 

3 This is what the LORD says to the men of Judah and to Jerusalem:

"Break up your unplowed ground
and do not sow among thorns.
4 Circumcise yourselves to the LORD,
circumcise your hearts,
you men of Judah and people of Jerusalem,
or my wrath will break out and burn like fire
because of the evil you have done —
burn with no one to quench it. 

5 "Announce in Judah and proclaim in Jerusalem and say:
'Sound the trumpet throughout the land!'
Cry aloud and say:
'Gather together!
Let us flee to the fortified cities!'
6 Raise the signal to go to Zion!
Flee for safety without delay!
For I am bringing disaster from the north,
even terrible destruction." 

7 A lion has come out of his lair;
a destroyer of nations has set out.
He has left his place
to lay waste your land.
Your towns will lie in ruins
without inhabitant.
8 So put on sackcloth,
lament and wail,
for the fierce anger of the LORD
has not turned away from us. 

9 "In that day," declares the LORD,
"the king and the officials will lose heart,
the priests will be horrified,
and the prophets will be appalled." 

10 Then I said, "Ah, Sovereign LORD, how completely you have deceived this people and Jerusalem by saying, 'You will have peace,' when the sword is at our throats." 

11 At that time this people and Jerusalem will be told, "A scorching wind from the barren heights in the desert blows toward my people, but not to winnow or cleanse; 12 a wind too strong for that comes from me. Now I pronounce my judgments against them." 

13 Look! He advances like the clouds,
his chariots come like a whirlwind,
his horses are swifter than eagles.
Woe to us! We are ruined!
14 O Jerusalem, wash the evil from your heart and be saved.
How long will you harbor wicked thoughts?
15 A voice is announcing from Dan,
proclaiming disaster from the hills of Ephraim.
16 "Tell this to the nations,
proclaim it to Jerusalem:
'A besieging army is coming from a distant land,
raising a war cry against the cities of Judah.
17 They surround her like men guarding a field,
because she has rebelled against me,'"
declares the LORD.
18 "Your own conduct and actions
have brought this upon you.
This is your punishment.
How bitter it is!
How it pierces to the heart!" 

19 Oh, my anguish, my anguish!
I writhe in pain.
Oh, the agony of my heart!
My heart pounds within me,
I cannot keep silent.
For I have heard the sound of the trumpet;
I have heard the battle cry.
20 Disaster follows disaster;
the whole land lies in ruins.
In an instant my tents are destroyed,
my shelter in a moment.
21 How long must I see the battle standard
and hear the sound of the trumpet?
 

22 "My people are fools;
they do not know me.
They are senseless children;
they have no understanding.
They are skilled in doing evil;
they know not how to do good." 

23 I looked at the earth,
and it was formless and empty;
and at the heavens,
and their light was gone.
24 I looked at the mountains,
and they were quaking;
all the hills were swaying (shimmering in the heat).
25 I looked, and there were no people;
every bird in the sky had flown away.

26 I looked, and the fruitful land was a desert;
all its towns lay in ruins
before the LORD, before his fierce anger. 

27 This is what the LORD says:

"The whole land will be ruined,
though I will not destroy it completely.

28 Therefore the earth will mourn
and the heavens above grow dark,
because I have spoken and will not relent,
I have decided and will not turn back." 

29 At the sound of horsemen and archers
every town takes to flight.

Some go into the thickets;
some climb up among the rocks.
All the towns are deserted;
no one lives in them. 

30 What are you doing, O devastated one?
Why dress yourself in scarlet
and put on jewels of gold?
Why shade your eyes with paint?
You adorn yourself in vain.
Your lovers despise you;
they seek your life. 

31 I hear a cry as of a woman in labor,
a groan as of one bearing her first child —
the cry of the Daughter of Zion gasping for breath,
stretching out her hands and saying,
"Alas! I am fainting;
my life is given over to murderers." 
NIV

THIS is what this passage is about! It's a report and grief over the Babylonian invasion that led to the captivity! Yirmeyahu has some prophecy, too, but much of it is recorded history of the captivity itself.

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1 hour ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, n2thelight.

I'm going to address this post first as it is the easier of the two.

It would be wise for you to read the prophecy of Yirmeyahu ("Jeremiah") again in its entirety. I would suggest for this exercise that you pick an English version that's easy to read, such as the NIV, and read it in a single sitting. You'll have to plan for the time, and it will probably take you close to 2 hours to read it, but it will be a valuable exercise. If possible, I would suggest reading it aloud to yourself, if you have the privacy. Should you want to include others, you can let them read part of it while you read the rest, taking turns.

I suggest this exercise because you've got the wrong idea of what Yirmeyahu was saying. For instance, here's the NIV on chapter 4:

Jeremiah 4:1-31
1 "If you will return, O Israel,
return to me,"
declares the LORD.

"If you put your detestable idols out of my sight
and no longer go astray,
2 and if in a truthful, just and righteous way
you swear, 'As surely as the LORD lives,'
then the nations will be blessed by him
and in him they will glory." 

3 This is what the LORD says to the men of Judah and to Jerusalem:

"Break up your unplowed ground
and do not sow among thorns.
4 Circumcise yourselves to the LORD,
circumcise your hearts,
you men of Judah and people of Jerusalem,
or my wrath will break out and burn like fire
because of the evil you have done —
burn with no one to quench it. 

5 "Announce in Judah and proclaim in Jerusalem and say:
'Sound the trumpet throughout the land!'
Cry aloud and say:
'Gather together!
Let us flee to the fortified cities!'
6 Raise the signal to go to Zion!
Flee for safety without delay!
For I am bringing disaster from the north,
even terrible destruction." 

7 A lion has come out of his lair;
a destroyer of nations has set out.
He has left his place
to lay waste your land.
Your towns will lie in ruins
without inhabitant.
8 So put on sackcloth,
lament and wail,
for the fierce anger of the LORD
has not turned away from us. 

9 "In that day," declares the LORD,
"the king and the officials will lose heart,
the priests will be horrified,
and the prophets will be appalled." 

10 Then I said, "Ah, Sovereign LORD, how completely you have deceived this people and Jerusalem by saying, 'You will have peace,' when the sword is at our throats." 

11 At that time this people and Jerusalem will be told, "A scorching wind from the barren heights in the desert blows toward my people, but not to winnow or cleanse; 12 a wind too strong for that comes from me. Now I pronounce my judgments against them." 

13 Look! He advances like the clouds,
his chariots come like a whirlwind,
his horses are swifter than eagles.
Woe to us! We are ruined!
14 O Jerusalem, wash the evil from your heart and be saved.
How long will you harbor wicked thoughts?
15 A voice is announcing from Dan,
proclaiming disaster from the hills of Ephraim.
16 "Tell this to the nations,
proclaim it to Jerusalem:
'A besieging army is coming from a distant land,
raising a war cry against the cities of Judah.
17 They surround her like men guarding a field,
because she has rebelled against me,'"
declares the LORD.
18 "Your own conduct and actions
have brought this upon you.
This is your punishment.
How bitter it is!
How it pierces to the heart!" 

19 Oh, my anguish, my anguish!
I writhe in pain.
Oh, the agony of my heart!
My heart pounds within me,
I cannot keep silent.
For I have heard the sound of the trumpet;
I have heard the battle cry.
20 Disaster follows disaster;
the whole land lies in ruins.
In an instant my tents are destroyed,
my shelter in a moment.
21 How long must I see the battle standard
and hear the sound of the trumpet?
 

22 "My people are fools;
they do not know me.
They are senseless children;
they have no understanding.
They are skilled in doing evil;
they know not how to do good." 

23 I looked at the earth,
and it was formless and empty;
and at the heavens,
and their light was gone.
24 I looked at the mountains,
and they were quaking;
all the hills were swaying (shimmering in the heat).
25 I looked, and there were no people;
every bird in the sky had flown away.

26 I looked, and the fruitful land was a desert;
all its towns lay in ruins
before the LORD, before his fierce anger. 

27 This is what the LORD says:

"The whole land will be ruined,
though I will not destroy it completely.

28 Therefore the earth will mourn
and the heavens above grow dark,
because I have spoken and will not relent,
I have decided and will not turn back." 

29 At the sound of horsemen and archers
every town takes to flight.

Some go into the thickets;
some climb up among the rocks.
All the towns are deserted;
no one lives in them. 

30 What are you doing, O devastated one?
Why dress yourself in scarlet
and put on jewels of gold?
Why shade your eyes with paint?
You adorn yourself in vain.
Your lovers despise you;
they seek your life. 

31 I hear a cry as of a woman in labor,
a groan as of one bearing her first child —
the cry of the Daughter of Zion gasping for breath,
stretching out her hands and saying,
"Alas! I am fainting;
my life is given over to murderers." 
NIV

THIS is what this passage is about! It's a report and grief over the Babylonian invasion that led to the captivity! Yirmeyahu has some prophecy, too, but much of it is recorded history of the captivity itself.

Can't agree with that,especially from verse 22 on.

As for using the NIV,I can't,as the KJV is the most accurate

Jeremiah 4:23 "I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light."

When did the above happen?

Jeremiah 4:25 "I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled."

Peter backs this up

God created this earth perfect,it became a ruin,when He destroyed it

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2 hours ago, n2thelight said:

Can't agree with that,especially from verse 22 on.

As for using the NIV,I can't,as the KJV is the most accurate

Jeremiah 4:23 "I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light."

When did the above happen?

Jeremiah 4:25 "I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled."

Peter backs this up

God created this earth perfect,it became a ruin,when He destroyed it

Shalom, n2thelight.

Sorry, but that's bibliolatry, the WORSHIP of a version of the Bible. There's nothing special in any one English translation of the Bible. I had to learn this as well in my lifetime. There were "KJV only" people when I was growing up, too. It's a common flaw in many denominations because I, for instance, was "saved" by a person (my father) using the KJV to show me the "Roman's Road to Salvation." In fact, the joke was, "Well if the KJV was good enough for the Apostle Paul, it's good enough for me!"

I am still learning, however, that God's Word is NOT just found in one language or in one version within that language. Instead, it is GOD who has the power to show Himself from ANY version, whether it be the Catholic Douay Bible or even the Jehovah's Witnesses' New World Translation. He can make Himself known and one can find God's Justification through ANY version of the Bible when the Holy Spirit draws him or her.

It's not that the KJV or any version is "most accurate"; it's which version is most true to the original languages. And, you're right that the KJV is one of the versions most true to the original Greek and Hebrew because the original members of the Translators thought it best to translate the Scriptures as much as possible, word for word from the original languages. There are two general philosophies translators use when they do their work: formal or complete equivalence and dynamic equivalence, and the KJV uses the formal equivalence while the NIV uses the dynamic equivalence. 

There were MANY copies of the Scriptures, both in the Hebrew of the TANAKH (which is a Hebrew acrostic "T-N-K" for "Torah-Navi'iym-K'tuviym," the "Torah" or the Pentateuch, the Prophets, and the Writings) and in the Greek of the B'rit Chadashah, the New Covenant or Testament. Some of these copies were more true to their source than others.

Some copyists added words to "explain" what was meant in the Greek text but these "good intentions" corrupted the text! Still, God gave us enough evidence regarding the Greek texts that allows us to use textual criticism to discover which versions of the Greek text were more probably closer to the original manuscripts than others.

The Hebrew, too, was faithfully copied down through the millennia. So well were they copied, in fact, that copies of Isaiah found in Kumran's Dead Sea Scrolls have very few changes to modern copies of the TANAKH'S book of Isaiah. Thus, we can rely upon the Masoretic text of the TANAKH.

But, when you so adhere to this King James Authorized Version of the Bible (the ONLY version that King James would allow in England's pulpits, btw), so much that it affects the way you interpret Scripture where you've CHANGED the meaning of the text, as you've done here in Jeremiah 4, then it's time to go to a different version. If it helps, you might try the New American Standard Bible or Version (NASB or NASV) which also used the more formal equivalence approach to translation. But, the KJV is not serving you well when you come up with this nonsense. If you're taking someone else's teaching for your own, discard it; it doesn't work.

Oh, and to answer your question, it happened from the thirteenth year of Josiah, king of Judah (3298 AM, or 626 BC), until after the fall of Jerusalem and the destruction of Solomon's Temple in 3358 AM or 587 BC.

Edited by Retrobyter
To answer the question.
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Shalom, n2thelight.

Something you might want to think about: Why did God take six days to create the heavens and the earth? You said,

17 hours ago, n2thelight said:

God created this earth perfect,it became a ruin,when He destroyed it

The word "perfect" means "mature." It does not mean anything more than that. Why did He create the first earth perfectly and instantaneously in verse 1 and take six days to create it the second time? The correct answer is, He didn't. He created earth and the skies ONCE. As I've said before, Jewish literature typically begins with a summary of what is to follow. Think of this summary as a main point in an outline. Then, the subpoints are expanded in the lines to follow.

As proof of this being the case in Genesis 1, simply look at the words for "heavens" (or "heaven" in some versions) and "earth":

In Genesis 1:1, we read,

B-ree'shiyt baaraa' Elohiym eet hashaamayim v'eet haa'aarets:

B-ree'shiyt = In-the-beginning
baaraa' = created
Elohiym = God
eet = (the next word is the direct object)
hashaamayim = the-skies (dual)
v'eet = and-(the next word is the direct object)
haa'aarets: = the-earth:

But, then we read in Genesis 1:8,

Vayiqraa' Elohiym laaraaqiyaa` shaamaayim:

Vayiqraa' = And-gave-name
Elohiym = God
laaraaqiyaa` = to-the-expanse
shaamaayim: = skies (dual):

And, later we read in Genesis 1:10,

Vayiqraa' Elohiym layabaashaah erets:

Vayiqraa' = And-gave-name
Elohiym = God
layabaashaah = to-the-dry-ground
erets: = earth:

Therefore, the first verse is the summary because God named the expanse between waters "shaamaayim" and named the dry-ground "erets," the same words used in verse 1! Since God made these things on days 2 and 3, respectively, He did NOT create them BEFORE the six days of Creation.

In each of the six days, God creates something and creates each of those things "perfect," "mature." But, they could only go so far in the matrix in which they were created. Each was perfect and mature, but they could only be as perfect and mature as far they could go. They could not go any further. For instance, sea creatures could not be created until there were seas. Land animals could not be created until there was first land! And, the whole earth had to be designed before mankind could be created.

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