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ERRORS of the POST-TRIB. view.


Marilyn C

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23 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

THIS is what this passage is about! It's a report and grief over the Babylonian invasion that led to the captivity! Yirmeyahu has some prophecy, too, but much of it is recorded history of the captivity itself.

This preterist view is not correct, as what is prophesied did not happen in ancient times. It is only by allegorizing and making the words and descriptions mean what they plainly don't and wrong belief that God won't reset civilization again as He did in the days of Noah. 2 Peter 3:1-7

These scriptures from the prophet Jeremiah, are written to the Jewish people. As nothing like what is described has happened in their history as yet, then all this must be a future event.

Jeremiah 4:3-4 These are the Words of the Lord to the people of Judah and Jerusalem: Prepare the ground, do not sow among thorns. Circumcise yourselves to the service of the Lord, you people of Judah, dwellers in the Land. Or else the fire of My fury may blaze up and burn unquenched, because of your evil actions.

 

Jeremiah 4:5-9 Declare this in all Judah; blow the trumpet throughout the Land. Assemble into fortified areas, raise the signal- To Zion! Make for safety without delay, for disaster is approaching. The Destroyer of nations has risen from His lair, He is coming to devastate your Land. To make your cities waste and empty. Go into mourning, for the fierce anger of the Lord is not averted from us. On that Day, your leaders and officers will fail, your Rabbis and prophets will be shocked.  Jeremiah 13:11, Isaiah 22:

Jeremiah 4:11-13 At that time, the people of Jerusalem will be told: A scorching wind from the desert heights bears down upon My people. It is more than a breeze for winnowing. A wind too strong for this will come at My bidding and this will be a judgement on them. It comes like clouds advancing, a whirlwind and storms, like attacking cavalry and swifter that eagles. Woe! to us - for we are ruined.   Isaiah 30:25-30, Jeremiah 13:24-25, Zephaniah 1:14-18, Revelation 6:12-17

 

Jeremiah 4:14-18 & 21 Jerusalem: cleanse your wrongdoings from your hearts and you may yet be saved. How long will you keep to your evil ways?

           The news of this terrible event comes to us from the North. Tell the nations, proclaim the doom of Jerusalem. A great horde is coming from a distant place, shouting out against the cities of Judah. [Joel 2:1-11] She is encircled by it because they have rebelled against their Maker. Their own ways and deeds have brought these things upon you, this is your punishment for your rebellion seated deep within you. How long must I warn them? But My people are foolish, they know nothing of Me, they lack understanding and know nothing of doing right.

 

Jeremiah 4:19-20 Oh how I writhe in anguish! I cannot keep silent, for I can hear the sounds of the battle cries. Crash follows crash and the whole Land goes down in ruin. Suddenly, it happens, in an instant – all is thrown down.

Jeremiah 4:29 At the sound of the approaching disaster, everyone is in flight, people crawl into the bushes and climb up the hills. Every town is deserted, no one lives there.  Isaiah 2:19-21, Revelation 6:14-16

 

Jeremiah 4:23-28 I looked at the earth and it was in chaos, reeling to and fro and in darkness. No person could be seen. I looked, and the land was like a wilderness with the towns ruined and desolate, because of the fierce anger of the Lord. The whole earth will be in mourning for this, for now that I have made known My purpose, I shall not relent or change it.   

Reference: REB. Some verses abridged

This prophecy of Jeremiah's, can allude to the Babylonian conquest, but it is primarily about the still to happen Day of the Lord's vengeance and wrath, the Sixth Seal worldwide disaster that will change the world and lead into all that must happen before Jesus Returns.

 

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Keras said:

This preterist view is not correct, as what is prophesied did not happen in ancient times. It is only by allegorizing and making the words and descriptions mean what they plainly don't and wrong belief that God won't reset civilization again as He did in the days of Noah. 2 Peter 3:1-7

These scriptures from the prophet Jeremiah, are written to the Jewish people. As nothing like what is described has happened in their history as yet, then all this must be a future event.

Jeremiah 4:3-4 These are the Words of the Lord to the people of Judah and Jerusalem: Prepare the ground, do not sow among thorns. Circumcise yourselves to the service of the Lord, you people of Judah, dwellers in the Land. Or else the fire of My fury may blaze up and burn unquenched, because of your evil actions.

 

Jeremiah 4:5-9 Declare this in all Judah; blow the trumpet throughout the Land. Assemble into fortified areas, raise the signal- To Zion! Make for safety without delay, for disaster is approaching. The Destroyer of nations has risen from His lair, He is coming to devastate your Land. To make your cities waste and empty. Go into mourning, for the fierce anger of the Lord is not averted from us. On that Day, your leaders and officers will fail, your Rabbis and prophets will be shocked.  Jeremiah 13:11, Isaiah 22:

Jeremiah 4:11-13 At that time, the people of Jerusalem will be told: A scorching wind from the desert heights bears down upon My people. It is more than a breeze for winnowing. A wind too strong for this will come at My bidding and this will be a judgement on them. It comes like clouds advancing, a whirlwind and storms, like attacking cavalry and swifter that eagles. Woe! to us - for we are ruined.   Isaiah 30:25-30, Jeremiah 13:24-25, Zephaniah 1:14-18, Revelation 6:12-17

 

Jeremiah 4:14-18 & 21 Jerusalem: cleanse your wrongdoings from your hearts and you may yet be saved. How long will you keep to your evil ways?

           The news of this terrible event comes to us from the North. Tell the nations, proclaim the doom of Jerusalem. A great horde is coming from a distant place, shouting out against the cities of Judah. [Joel 2:1-11] She is encircled by it because they have rebelled against their Maker. Their own ways and deeds have brought these things upon you, this is your punishment for your rebellion seated deep within you. How long must I warn them? But My people are foolish, they know nothing of Me, they lack understanding and know nothing of doing right.

 

Jeremiah 4:19-20 Oh how I writhe in anguish! I cannot keep silent, for I can hear the sounds of the battle cries. Crash follows crash and the whole Land goes down in ruin. Suddenly, it happens, in an instant – all is thrown down.

Jeremiah 4:29 At the sound of the approaching disaster, everyone is in flight, people crawl into the bushes and climb up the hills. Every town is deserted, no one lives there.  Isaiah 2:19-21, Revelation 6:14-16

 

Jeremiah 4:23-28 I looked at the earth and it was in chaos, reeling to and fro and in darkness. No person could be seen. I looked, and the land was like a wilderness with the towns ruined and desolate, because of the fierce anger of the Lord. The whole earth will be in mourning for this, for now that I have made known My purpose, I shall not relent or change it.   

Reference: REB. Some verses abridged

This prophecy of Jeremiah's, can allude to the Babylonian conquest, but it is primarily about the still to happen Day of the Lord's vengeance and wrath, the Sixth Seal worldwide disaster that will change the world and lead into all that must happen before Jesus Returns.

Shalom, Keras.

Wow. That is SO twisted! You can't even accept what the Jews say about their OWN prophetic book of Yirmeyahu, and you call ME a "preterist!"

Answer one question: Why do you think Jeremiah (Yirmeyahu) was called "the weeping prophet?"

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Retro, you answer this question: did the whole earth mourn when Babylon conquered Judah?

Other members here can read the prophesies for themselves and it isn't hard to see most of them remain to be fulfilled.

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On 6/23/2017 at 1:07 AM, n2thelight said:

Evolution is not true,however this earth is more than 10,000 years old

Science and scripture does not contradict.

Shalom, n2thelight.

Well, it's interesting that you think that "science and scripture do not contradict," and yet can say "evolution is not true." It's true that true science (observation and experimentation) does not contradict the Scriptures, but you've got to understand that true science today is almost always supplemented with a humanistic, evolutionary interpretation of the results of that science. Furthermore NONE of true science says ANYTHING about origins and would not. Science answers "how," not "why." True science gives nothing definitive regarding the age of the earth, either. It only gives us facts; it's ONE INTERPRETATION of those facts that introduces long periods of time to one's viewpoint. Other, more consistent interpretations of the same facts give much shorter periods of time.

Look at the history of the "gap theory." You will find that a gap thought to exist between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2 was introduced as a means by which believers in the Bible could accomodate the new-at-the-time Darwinian Theory of Evolution.

But, let's move on from that, assuming as you say that you do not accept this theory.

Hebrew is technically an Oriental language, not a Western one, as it is a language of the "Middle EAST." It is read from right to left instead of left to right; it started as a pictoral language before there were "letters"; and there are technically no vowels in the alphabet (or as they rightly call the "alef-bet," since Hebrew came BEFORE Greek).

When vowels are introduced into their language for pronunciation in another language, such as English, they call this system the "vowel pointing method." When I transliterate the Hebrew into English, I will try to be as consistent with the vowel-pointing to vowel change as when I have a consonant to consonant change. Here are the consonant to consonant changes:

alef = ' (ignored at the beginning of words so as not to conflict with single quotes; the sound associated with the explosive "uh" sound at the beginning of words like "apple," "egg," and "umbrella")
bet = b
gimmel = g (always a hard g as in "girl" never the soft g in "giant")
dalet = d
hei = h
vav = v (or w when connected with a vowel sound)
zayin = z
cheit = ch
teit = T
yod = y
kaf = k (sounded in the middle of the tongue)
lamed = l
meim = m
nun (pronounced "noon") = n
samech = c (pronounced like an s)
`ayin = ` (the gutteral sound make in the back of the throat like a swallowing sound; the reason why `aza is spelled "Gaza")
pei = p
tsadday = ts
qof = q (a k sound made at the back of the tongue)
reish = r
shin (pronounced "sheen") = sh
tav = t
(Some English versions of the Bible will have these Hebrew letters at the beginning of the 22 sections of Psalm 119.)

In addition to these letters, certain letters will carry a different sound if the letter is dotted in the middle of the letter as opposed to when it does not. The Hebrew phrase "beged kefet" is the way one can remember the letters that are affected.

bet (dotted) = b
vet (undotted) = V
gimmel (undotted) = g
gimmel (dotted) = gg
dalet (undotted) = d
dalet (dotted) = dd
kaf (dotted) = k
khaf (undotted) = kh (the hard German gutteral sound as in "reich")
pei (dotted) = p
fei (undotted) = f
tav (undotted) = t
thav (dotted) = th (hard th as in "thin"; never soft th as in "this")

I represent the vowel pointing that is added to these consonants like this:

qamets = aa (pronounced as "aw" in "saw")
patach = a (pronounced as "a" in "father")
tsere = ee (pronounced as "ay" in "day")
tsere with yod = eey (pronounced as "ay" in "day")
segol = e (pronounced as "eh" in "bed")
chireq = i (pronounced as "ee" in "bee")
chireq with yod = iy (pronounced as "ee" in "bee")
cholem = o (pronounced as "o" in "oboe")
cholem with vav  = ow (pronounced as "ow" in "rainbow")
qibbuts = u (pronounced as "oo" in "boo")
shureq = uw (pronounced as "oo" in "boo")
sheva (from which we get our English sound "schwa") is either not represented (as in a consonant blend) or given a dash ("-")

In native Hebrew, the vowel pointing is not needed. Those who speak Hebrew fluently do not need them. Israeli newspapers do not have the vowel pointing in their print. Neither did the Bible in Hebrew.

Now, the transliteration that I gave earlier for Genesis 1:1 in Hebrew was:

B-ree'shiyt baaraa' Elohiym eet hashaamayim v'eet haa'aarets:

That was so that one could know, based on the above schemes, how to pronounce it; however, in Hebrew (transliterated) it would look more like this (with no alefs ignored):

br'shyt br' 'lhym 't hshmym v't h'rts:

... without the vowel pointing.

One should also be aware of the fact that the "h-" (hei-) prefix is the definite article in Hebrew. Sometimes in pronunciation it has the patach (a) and sometimes it has the qamets (aa) pointing.

So, when God called the expanse (firmament) "shmym" (spelled "shin-meim-yod-meim"), one should be able to recognize that it's the same word as that in Gen. 1:1 without the definite article.

Likewise, when God called the dry ground "'rts" (spelled "alef-reish-tsadday"), it too is the same word as that in Gen. 1:1 without the definite article.

There was no "first time" before Genesis 1:2 because He doesn't NAME the heavens and the earth until Days 2 and 3 of the Creation week!

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I think it is time to turn to the topic of this thread - the errors of the post trib. If you fellas want to keep discussing that other topic of Jeremiah then I suggest you start another thread on it.

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On ‎14‎/‎06‎/‎2017 at 5:19 PM, Marilyn C said:

ERRORS OF THE POST TRIB. VIEW.

The main reason, I believe that people think that the rapture is at the end of the tribulation, is because they confuse God`s purposes for – the Body of Christ, Israel and the Nations.

When we read a newspaper or magazine, etc we know that when someone is speaking to a person or a group, then it is not us they are talking to. This also applies to reading God`s word. We can read of God talking through the prophets to specific people or Israel or the nations, and know that He is talking to them. Also when Jesus was manifest on earth and was talking to specific people or Israel, then we know that He is specifically talking to them.

Christ is the centre of God`s word, His character and His purposes, and it only brings confusion and error to place ourselves as the centre.  

The following scriptures are the most generally used to support the post-trib. view, however I believe they concern Israel & the nations and NOT the Body of Christ.

1.Matthew 24. This gives a detailed account of what will happen to Israel & the nations. The revelation of the Body of Christ is not given till many years later when Jesus, the Head of the body reveals His purpose for them and their end-time details through the Apostle Paul.

 

ERROR. Believing that Jesus is telling of the Body of Christ`s future in the end-times.

 

2.Matthew 24: 31. `And he will send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.`

The `elect` is Israel. `For Jacob my servant`s sake, and Israel my ELECT.` (Is. 45: 4)

 

ERROR. Believing that the elect in that scripture, is the Body of Christ.

 

You may like to comment upon my thoughts.

Looking at the word `elect` some people have thought that it means the Body of Christ. However this would make the Lord deceitful and a liar, (which we know He is not)

So...why would I say deceitful.

The Lord was talking to people in Israel and they knew they were God`s elect. If Jesus was referring to another group, which no one knew about, then He would be deceitful as he would know that the people understood that word as them, God`s elect.

So....why would I say a liar.

The Lord was talking to people in Israel who knew they were God`s elect. If Jesus was talking about a group who were yet to come and he was revealing them, then this goes against what the Lord said to Paul, that no one knew the revelation of the Body of Christ previously. Thus the Lord would have been a liar to reveal the Body when He later says it wasn`t revealed.

As we know the Lord is NOT deceitful or a liar, then we know that when He was speaking to the people of Israel, and said  `elect,` it was the elect they knew - Israel.

 

Marilyn.

   

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52 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

The Lord was talking to people in Israel and they knew they were God`s elect. If Jesus was referring to another group, which no one knew about, then He would be deceitful as he would know that the people understood that word as them, God`s elect.

The Jews thought they were still God's special people. They were wrong and john corrected them: Matthew 3:7-10, and Jesus said the Kingdom would be taken from them. Matthew 21:43  Jesus also said they belonged to the synagogue of Satan. Rev 2:9b

We know who the real people of God are: 1 Peter 2:9-10, Galatians 3:26-29. +

Please cease, in the Name of Jesus; your promotion of the Jewish people as a special race. We Christians welcome Christian Jews, along with individuals from every other race, nation and language, but a whole people group - no.

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10 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Looking at the word `elect` some people have thought that it means the Body of Christ. However this would make the Lord deceitful and a liar, (which we know He is not)

So...why would I say deceitful.

The Lord was talking to people in Israel and they knew they were God`s elect. If Jesus was referring to another group, which no one knew about, then He would be deceitful as he would know that the people understood that word as them, God`s elect.

So....why would I say a liar.

The Lord was talking to people in Israel who knew they were God`s elect. If Jesus was talking about a group who were yet to come and he was revealing them, then this goes against what the Lord said to Paul, that no one knew the revelation of the Body of Christ previously. Thus the Lord would have been a liar to reveal the Body when He later says it wasn`t revealed.

As we know the Lord is NOT deceitful or a liar, then we know that when He was speaking to the people of Israel, and said  `elect,` it was the elect they knew - Israel.

 

Marilyn.

   

 

Hello Marilyn,

I think we all agree Jesus is not a liar.  In regards to the elect though, and our understanding of whom the elect is, can you tell me what this passage means to you.

 

Romans 9:6  But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel,

 

If all who are born Jewish do not belong to Israel, then who is Israel?

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6 hours ago, Keras said:

The Jews thought they were still God's special people. They were wrong and john corrected them: Matthew 3:7-10, and Jesus said the Kingdom would be taken from them. Matthew 21:43  Jesus also said they belonged to the synagogue of Satan. Rev 2:9b

We know who the real people of God are: 1 Peter 2:9-10, Galatians 3:26-29. +

Please cease, in the Name of Jesus; your promotion of the Jewish people as a special race. We Christians welcome Christian Jews, along with individuals from every other race, nation and language, but a whole people group - no.

Shalom, Keras.

Ummm... They ARE "still God's special people!" And, please cease, in the name of Yeshua` the Messiah of God, thinking that this "Church" entity somehow takes the place of God's special people, the children of Israel! They do not, and they cannot!

Romans 11:11-29
11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them (the children of Israel) to jealousy.
12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world (God's justification), what shall the receiving of them be, but LIFE FROM THE DEAD? (RESURRECTION!)
16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. (This is what YOU are saying, if you believe in "Replacement Theology.")
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature (an oleander tree), and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob (Israel):
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the FATHERS' (the PATRIARCHS') sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. (God doesn't renege on His gifts and calling! His promises are NOT given away to others!)
KJV

Romans 3:1-2
1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles (the words) of God.
KJV

Have you bothered to read Ephesians 2?

Ephesians 2:11-22
11 Wherefore remember, that ye (the Ephesians) being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision (the children of Israel) in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ (outside the Messiah), being aliens from the commonwealth (citizenship) of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world (outside of God in the world system):
13 But now in Christ Jesus (in the Messiah Yeshua`) ye who sometimes were far off (the Gentile Ephesians) are made nigh (close) by the blood of Christ (of the Messiah).
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both (children of Israel and Gentiles) one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition (separation) between us;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain (out of two) one new man, so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off (the Gentile Ephesians), and to them that were nigh (close, the children of Israel).
18 For through him we both (children of Israel and Gentiles) have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19 Now therefore ye (Gentile Ephesians) are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints (the holy ones, the children of Israel), and of the household (family) of God;
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
KJV

Notice: It's not the children of Israel that are farther off; it's the Gentiles who have been made close LIKE the children of Israel! The Gentiles are no longer the strangers and foreigners. The Gentiles are now fellowcitizens WITH the saints (the holy ones). They've been added TO the family of God, the children of Israel!

By the way, "holy ones" or "saints" doesn't mean "righteous ones." It means "sanctified ones" or "ones set apart" for God, just as all the furniture in the Temple was "sanctified" or "set apart" for the LORD'S use!

In Matthew 3:7-10, Yochanan (John) was talking to the P'rushiym and Ts'duqiym (the Pharisees and Sadduccees), not to "all of Israel."

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Ethnic Judah, the Jewish State of Israel, is not a body of God's people in addition to the Church, as if God had two separate bodies of saints. The non-Christian Jewish people, are not at present a people of God at all.

 On the other hand, God is not forever done with them, and does not treat or view the ethnic, unbelieving Jews, as He does all other ungodly peoples. He treats them much more severely, because they have the Law and the Prophets, while rejecting the Messiah. Yet at the end of this age, God will take some of the Jews and bring them into the one Body of Christ, with subsequent special blessings to them and their children for one thousand years.

We can view true believers as Israel while not supporting Replacement Theology.

Pre-tribbers making this accusation, do so to protect their Two People, Two Promises  position, vital for supporting their pre-trib rapture theory. That is: when God’s holy people are depicted in the Bible as living on earth during the final Week, pre-tribbers must see them as ethnic Israel, rather than Church saints. Why? In order to believe that Church saints are not on earth during the Week. Thus, they wrongly proclaim two separate bodies of saints, and that each one is treated differently according to their different dispensations. So now you know why pre-tribbers invented yet another error, their Dispensation Theology: to accommodate the TP-TP view.

It is not enough for pre-tribbers to prove what we already know, that the Jewish people will be dealt with by God in the final Week, and that Jesus will then set up a Kingdom of Israel on earth that He will rule for 1000 years. That being true, it doesn't make the ethnic Jews a Body of God's people between the Crucifixion and the Return of Jesus. Jews not joining the Church by faith in Jesus, are not to be viewed as a second Body of God, and ethnic Jews destined to be saved are now and will be, incorporated into the one Body of God: the true Christian Church.

I do not espouse Replacement Theology, because I acknowledge that God still has plans for ethnic Israel. According to numerous prophesies, the overall Plan will first begin with God's wrath against the Jews, which plainly shows they are not saints or the elect, as pre-tribbers wrongly maintain and it is only a remnant who will change. Now, for pointing out this forthcoming judgement/punishment of Judah, Ezekiel 21:1-8, Amos 2:4-5, the pre-tribbers will accuse me, for being anti-Semitic, a false and extremely unchristian accusation!

 

The wrong and unscriptural belief in a rapture removal to heaven before the wrath of God comes, teaches the Christian people not to prepare for life in the last few years of this age, so the rapture lie will be responsible for much suffering in the Church.

Do not be deceived. God did not "replace" Israel with the Church, but Old-Testament Israel and the New-Testament Church are one, and have always been one. It was the leadership of Israel that was replaced at the Cross, given to the Apostles when taken away from the Sanhedrin/Pharisees, but this in no way means that Jesus started a new Body called the "Church." Old-Testament Israel was the Church, Acts 7:38

Indeed, the "church of Israel" is a phrase found throughout the Old Testament...over a hundred times...but usually translated into our English Bibles as "congregation or assembly of Israel"

The simple and obvious truth, is that the Christian Church is the one, true Israel of God and they remain on earth to fulfil their God given tasks and destiny.

 

 

 

It seems plain to me from the words of Jesus that salvation is of the Jews John 4:22 Correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't this mean that we can't be saved unless we enter into and partake of the Body of Israel? Not the body of mere ethnic Jews, but the Body of Elect Jews that was renewed by the Blood and subsequently continued forward by the 12 Apostles in submission to Jesus.

Pre-tribulationists tell us that God rejected ethnic Israel at the Crucifixion, and placed her on freeze so as to place emphasis on the Church and "Church age" instead, then until the 70th Week, at which time He would again focus solely on Israel.

As this Old Testament Church was eventually cleansed in the Blood of the Lamb when that Lamb appeared in a flesh body, it's clear that the ancient Israel of God became the New Testament Church, and did not replace it. Same Body, yet cleansed by Blood and Grace. Same Israel, but with a New Covenant:

I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah, not according to the covenant which I made with their fathers...which they broke... Jeremiah 31:31-32

Clearly, the New Covenant in the Blood was made for no other Body of God but for the Old Testament Israel, to renew her, not to replace her with a second Body called the "Church." And certainly the New Covenant was not given to Old Testament Israel to temporarily reject or suspend her in limbo until the 70th Week, but was provided to make Her alive and active immediately via the authority and teachings of the 12 Apostles.

The curtain of the Temple was torn by God at the Crucifixion, not because God had rejected sinful Israel, but because the New Covenant was then in force. If God had rejected sinful Israel, He would not have provided the Second Covenant for her. Yes, God rejected some of the Jews in sinful Israel, but he took a portion of them and provided them with the Blood. That Portion, still called the "Church" or "Elect" as in Old-Testament times, does not therefore become a second Body of God's people, but the original Body refurbished, renovated, repaired, renewed, recast, recovered, redeemed, perhaps even remodeled...but not replaced! Jesus died so that Old-Testament Israel could bloom into the Christian Church! Something has got to be markedly wrong with a theology that views Israel as being rejected and shelved at the Cross when the very essence of the Cross is a new beginning for Israel.

The rejected Jews were no better in the eyes of Jesus than the condemned heathen, and have been tolerated only for God's Promise to their bloodline father, Abraham; for no other reason will the bloodline Remnant of the end times be saved. Romans 11:28-29 So that God's Name might not be associated with those who break promises.

 

When the Temple and city of Jerusalem were destroyed in 70 AD, God was not rejecting Israel, but only those Jews who had distanced themselves from true Israel. Pre-tribbers wish to view that Israel as a blessed thing, when in fact they were an anti-Jesus people that God judged and punished. Pre-tribbers then teach according to their view, that God will deal kindly with Jesus rejecting  Israel in the 70th Week, when the reality is to the contrary.

Not only has God disgraced the bloodline Jews for over 1900 years, allowing the many pogroms and the Holocaust but the 70th Week is allotted for yet more of God’s wrath upon them. This is not the same as a father discipling a son hard for gross misbehavior, but rather is an eradication of the entire pride and structure of an Arch Enemy. Not until after the 70 Weeks, says Daniel 9:24, will a remnant, after God’s judgement be consecrated to God, for after Jesus Returns, even the stiff-necked Jews will respect Him.

 

If the Christian Church is at times painted in Scripture with Israelite colors, as She is in 1 Peter 2:9-10, it should come as no surprise. The same occurs in Revelation 12, where the glorious "woman" there is Israel, both the Old-Testament Israel that (figuratively speaking) gave birth to Jesus, and the New-Testament Israel that, according to 12:11 and 12:17, is the Christian Church. No bloodline Jews are ever mentioned in Revelation 12, whereas Christians are, yet pre-tribulationists insist that the Woman is solely bloodline Israel. Too many post-tribulationists have not concerned themselves enough to disagree with this erroneous view, not realizing the importance, perhaps, of the prophecy as it proves the Church's endurance of the great tribulation.

The apostle Paul says: that bloodline Jews are experiencing a hardening of heart, due to their rejection of Messiah, until the full number of Gentile saints comes to salvation. Romans 11:17-25  But how can the full number of Gentile saints fulfill Paul's words at the start of the 70th Week? Preposterous. For, many Gentiles will come to Christ during the Week.

Dispensationalism was invented by pre-tribbers to end the "Church age" at the start of the 70th Week. To support that ludicrous idea, pre-tribbers call Christians living in the 70th Week by a name other than "Church"...by a concocted phrase -- "Tribulation Saints" -- that doesn't, as a title, appear in the Bible.

I do not know of one scripture supporting the blessing of bloodline Israel (i.e. the Remnant of bloodline Israel) within the 70th Week. All scriptures I have read in this regard point to a post-tribulation salvation for the Remnant. In fact, Jesus said that the ethnic Jews will not be helped and saved until they say, "Blessed is He who comes in the Name of the Lord" (Matthew 23:39). Zechariah 12:10 reveals that time as a post-trib' one, when the Jews will see Jesus with their very eyes.

 

While this discussion may appear overdone, redundant, or even trivial, I assure you that I am going somewhere quite important, creating a foundation for the claim that the Church is slated to receive divine Protection during the 1260-day Great Tribulation period. Again, it is very convenient for pre-tribulationists to have a two-Body view because it acts as recourse for eliminating the Church from the tribulation period whenever she is found there depicted with Israelite colors.

Because the Israelite Woman of Revelation 12 is living within the tribulation period, pre-tribulationists resort to changing her identity to bloodline Israel. But any Biblical symbol of Israel in the tribulation period cannot include bloodline Jews, for they are no longer Jews in the eyes of God. They are Jews only in the eyes of man, for the Bible teaches that a Jew in the eyes of God is one only in the Spirit.

There is undeniable Biblical support for the idea that non-Jewish Christians are citizens of God's Israel. They are Jews in a very real sense, by the Spirit. Since the Spirit counts for more than blood, Gentile saints are Israelites more than the Jews who are such by blood but not through the King of the Jews. Paul, a Jew who once held a lofty position in the "synagogue of Satan," maintained this very principle without any gray area at all when he became a citizen of Christ's Israel: "A Jew is not one outwardly, but is a Jew in the hidden parts [of the spirit]..." (Romans 2:28,29). In other words, Israelites are Israelites only if they are part of the elect Christian Church.

Just as the Law of Moses demanded that any Jew who grievously disobeyed it was to be cut off from the Israel, so also any Jew who rejects the word of God through Jesus shall be cut off. In fact, if rejecting Moses cut them off, rejecting Jesus will cut them off with so much more finality. This leads to the radical Christian position which we must uphold, to the discredit of the bloodline Jews. But NEVER must we persecute the bloodline Jews; this must be left to wicked powers chosen by God.

Thus, while Jews of Old-Testament times were born into the Israel of God from their natural births, a Jew in New-Testament times has to be born into the Israel of God by an another, second birth. If a person born into Abraham's stock by their natural birth now rebels against Jesus and does not become born again in the Spirit, such a one would not technically be cut off from Israel, because such a person would never have been a part of Israel in the first place. And so the means by becoming an Israelite citizen has changed, but this does not require a new Israel.

Peter said, while repeating Moses: And it shall be that every soul which does not listen to that prophet [Messiah] will be utterly destroyed from the people. Acts 3:23  Thus, the Old-Testament Jews (e.g. the 12 Apostles prior to the Crucifixion) who did devote themselves to "that prophet" simply retained their citizenship in Israel.

Do we Gentile Christians become citizens of Israel only when the Millennial Kingdom begins on earth? Do we consider our birth by blood to hold more priority than our re-birth by the Spirit? When we were born again in the Spirit, we were born into the Israel of God. So let's not view things from the natural perspective only since there exists the superior position of the Spirit.

Try reading Revelation 12 by viewing the Woman as the one Israel of God covering both Covenants, and we can see why it's Christians that are called her "offspring" in verse 17. This picture is no different than Paul's picture of the tree of Israel with its Christian "branches" (Romans 11), where Jews who do not put on Christ are branches that fall off the Tree. Yes, this woman of Revelation 12 is that same tree of Israel with Gentile saints grafted in; she is the "all Israel" mentioned by Paul, both the bloodline Jews in Christ, and the Gentiles-come-Jews in Christ.

We cannot separate the Kingdom of Israel and the Kingdom of God; both are glued together forever and can forever be viewed as one. One is the Kingdom of Heaven which exists with or without the earth, having also a Heavenly Throne. The other is the Kingdom of God on earth. The first has always existed, but the second, having been Proclaimed, is still in the process of being built, and will be established finally, with an earthly throne, at the Return. The earthly kingdom, convened by Christ, the wonderful God-man, is the kingdom of Israel. After Armageddon, the eternal Kingdom of Heaven will merge with the Kingdom of Israel, to be thus formally married when God comes to live with mankind. The two kingdoms of God will then be, forever more, one Kingdom, over all the earth, over all the universe, yet ruling from...the United States? From Rome?? No - Jerusalem!

Dare we divide the Kingdom on earth into two distinct nations? That is what pre-tribulationists are infamous for, making two of everything: two Bodies of God; two parts to the Christian Church, two returns of Jesus, two angelic gatherings of the Elect, two Judgment Seats, not to mention two "first resurrections" of saints and two "last trumpets"--and all for being able to apply the Bible to their pre-tribulation rapture theory whenever the singular reading goes counter to their claims.

When Paul wrote to Christians in Rome, some of whom were Jews, he revealed the existence of two Israel's in one sentence while rejecting one of them as such: Not all the ones of Israel are Israel... Romans 9:6  There you have it; two distinct Israel's in one statement. The first represents the Israelites by blood alone, but Paul says this Israel is not Israel at all! Clearly, then, he calls the one, "Israel," whom he believes is not Israel, which can only mean he retains the use of the term only to identify the bloodline of Abraham, not to define it. He goes on to say, "...nor because they are the seed of Abraham are they all his children."

"It is not [Abraham's] children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise [made to Abraham]" (vs 8).

This proves that Christians are now the only Israel of God.

The writer of Hebrews confirms that one House of Israel covers two covenants:

"Moses on the one hand was faithful in all His household [singular, not plural]...Christ on the other hand is a Son over His [same] household; of whom we [Christians] are [now] the household. Hebrews 3:5,6

Can there be any doubt that the Old Testament Body and the New Testament Body are one and the same Household? In Acts 7:38, within a few weeks of Christ's ascension to Heaven, Stephen calls the Israel of very early Old-Testament times, "the church:"

"[Moses] is the one who had been in the church in the desert with the angel speaking to him on Mount Sinai..."

Do you see how "church" is not exclusively the New Testament Church? See how Stephen viewed the Christian people as an integral part of the old Church of Israel? "Church" used in New-Testament times was a Greek short-form for "Church of Israel" to distinguish from the nation of bloodline Israel. The Elect Jews of New-Testament times were not often called "Israel" by the early leaders of Christianity because there existed the bloodline Israel with geographical borders known to all the world as "Israel." To eliminate confusion, the leaders referred to the true Israel as "the church."

Although the Pharisees and their successors thought that they and their membership were the Church of Israel, Jesus had a few interesting words to say to the contrary, calling this camp the "synagogue of Satan" (Rev. 2:9; 3:9). Therefore, let no Christian call that camp "Israel" as a matter of Heavenly fact. My use of "bloodline Jews" is a special effort here not to use "Israel" to describe them, although I do use "Israel" elsewhere where this chapter's issue is not central.

The fact that Gentile Christians eventually outnumbered the Elect Jews does not make the Christian Church any less the Israel of God, nor does it make the Leader of that Church any less the King of Israel. The term "Christian," applying to Gentile believers as much as to Jewish believers, refers to Christ, the King of Israel. If you are a Christian, you are a literal Israelite. If you do not want to be an Israelite, I doubt that you are a Book-of-Life Christian, for you show animosity toward the King of Israel.

Could all this mean that the Israel of Revelation 12, when she is seen in the end-times, is the Christian Church alone? Shudder! Cold and clammy goose bumps all over pre-tribulationists.

All the Elect from Adam to the Christian Church to the very advent of the New Earth are the ONE Israel of God -- this is the Israel which is the woman of Revelation 12.

Just as Christianity did not emerge from the Israeli nation governed by the Pharisees under Caiaphas, so also the woman of Revelation 12, which is shown "giving birth" to the Christian Church, is not that bloodline Israel. There were chosen people amid the Old-Testament "chosen people," a holy, true and Elect Israel amid the Old-Testament "House of Israel." It is this holy Israel of God which figuratively gives birth to Jesus Christ in Revelation 12.

Jesus told the Jewish leaders that the kingdom of Israel would be taken away from them and given to others. It is unthinkable, therefore, that God would portray the Pharisaic Israel as He portrays the Revelation-12 Israel, for the one group was stripped of it's authority and handed to Satan, while the other radiates with 12 crowns of Godly rulership. Thus, these "others" to which Jesus would give the kingdom would go on to be the New-Testament segment of the Revelation-12 woman. Behold, she does not die giving birth to Jesus, as she is found much later in the great-tribulation period, wherefore she must also be the New-Testament Israel.

 

Are the bloodline Jews now ruling the geographical nation of Israel still Pharisees? Somewhat, for Orthodox Jews, the Pharisees of the modern age, hold some power in Palestine. Yet the current rulers are more the secular/liberal puppets of the Rothschild Illuminati (the State of Israel was made possible by the powers of the House of Rothschild). However, God will make the land of Israel his own by taking power away from these bloodline Jews whom He has rejected, and He will instead plant Spirit-filled Israel in it (yes, Christians) to rule for 1,000 years (Revelation 5:10 and 20:6). I reason that the Christian Elect will then,  rule not only in Zion, but worldwide so that the entire planet will be the Empire of Israel.

Some of the citizens of Millennial Zion will be the bloodline Jews destined to be born (again) into Israel at the Armageddon appearance of Jesus: "THEY WILL LOOK ON ME WHOM THEY HAVE PIERCED, AND THEY WILL MOURN FOR HIM, AS ONE MOURNS FOR AN ONLY SON, AND WILL GRIEVE OVER HIM, LIKE THE GRIEF OVER A FIRST-BORN"   Zechariah 12:10

 

When Paul likened the Christ-rejecting Jews to branches (r)ejected from the Tree of Israel, he said that "God is able to graft them in again.  Romans 11:23  After the great tribulation, and not until, God will do just that. But because Paul shows the bloodline Jews RE-grafted into the same tree that holds Gentile branches, it is made plain that they are re-grafted into the Israel that is now the Christian Church. There will be no other place to re-graft them but into the Bride of Christ, for God will remove geographical Israel...yes, modern Zionism...with great desolation because the time will have arrived to plant the true Israel there instead.

 

THE WOMAN AND THE NEW JERUSALEM

We do know that just as the Church of God is called "the bride of [Christ]" (Rev. 19:7), so also the New Jerusalem is called "the bride, the wife of the Lamb" (21:9). This compels us to view the City as a symbolic depiction of the Church, although there is evidence to the contrary.

As the City is "as a bride adorned for her Husband" (21:2), it becomes significant to this discussion because the woman of Revelation 12 is adorned with some very illustrious terms, not to mention that she, too, appears as the wife of God. It is no wonder, since the Woman represents the people for whom the New Jerusalem is built. How we can fail to view the Woman in this light is perplexing, but to confine her to bloodline Israel, most of which is destined for great wrath, is to miss the mark completely.

The only people permitted into the City are "the ones written in the Lamb's Book of Life" (21:27). Therefore, it is clear: the Spirit-filled nation of Israel--"all Israel"...the one Household from all time--is the only people which will walk in and out of the New-Jerusalem gates. The illustrious Woman of Revelation 12 must depict this same Israel, and nothing less...all the people written in the Book of Life.

We see that in the New Jerusalem, God will be its "sun," and Christ will be its "lamp/moon" (21:23), while we already know from other texts that saints are regarded as stars. Therefore, while the sun, moon and 12 stars highlighting the Woman in her glory may refer to Jacob, Rachel and their 12 sons, they would also correspond to the Father, Son, and 12 apostles, even as the New Jerusalem includes acclaim for both, the 12 tribes of Jacob in the City's foundations, and the 12 apostles in the City's walls.

But please, let one thing be certain in your mind: the Woman present in the great-tribulation cannot depict the modern nation of Israel pitted with Pharisaic orthodoxy, swelled with liberal Reformism, pervaded by secular Westernism, and destined for unparalleled devastation by the Lord. Jeremiah 10:18, Isaiah 22:14, Zechariah 13:8-9 

The worldly nation of Israel was depicted time and time again in the Old Testament as an adulteress, and the bloodline Israelites of New Testament times are depicted in no better light. Jesus said they are ...the ones calling themselves Jews, but they are not, but of the synagogue of Satan. Revelation 2:9  One chapter later in 3:9, he reiterates: "The ones calling themselves Jews, and they are not, for they lie. Therefore, if in chapters 2 and 3 Jesus labels the worldly nation of Israel as a church under Satan not to be identified as the true Church of Israel, how could this same Jesus portray this same Israel to the absolute contrary only a few pages later in chapter 12, where she is clothed in apparel that displays Godly glory:

"A great sign was seen in heaven, a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon underneath her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars..."

Clearly, with a crown on her head, she is destined for eternal rule in the Kingdom of God. She cannot therefore depict the current leaders of Israel who will be denied further rulership as of the Great Tribulation.

Didn't Jesus tell his Apostles that they each would have a throne? Wouldn't the 12 Apostles, therefore, be the 12 stars in her crown? But pre-tribulationists insist that the 12 stars are solely the 12 sons of Jacob. Are not the 12 sons of Jacob the forerunners of the 12 Apostles, and is not a Biblical forerunner in the Old Testament always inferior to the New-Testament fulfillment? But pre-tribulationists would loath to so much as entertain the 12 stars as the 12 Apostles because the Woman would then appear too much like the Christian Church. But shame on the pre-tribulationists for disguising the true identity of this glorious Woman!

 

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