ERRORS of the POST-TRIB. view.

[JohnD]

All three eschatological camps are correct when the 70th Week of Daniel is properly understood / divided:

It is a seven year period of TWO 3.5 year tribulations (the first is the world and the devil against God and the last is God against them that know not God).

The RAPTURE will take place POST believer's tribulation in the first half of the 70th Week of Daniel... therefore MID 70th Week... PRE great tribulation in the last half of the 70th Week of Daniel.

 

 

 

[Marilyn C]

 

 

42 minutes ago, JohnD said:

 

 

Hi JohnD,

I see what you believe, however we are discussing Matthew 24 and specifically `the elect.` Thus you need to address what the OP stated in light of what you believe.

regards, Marilyn.

[Ann Marie]

Dispensationalism seems to be the biggest problematic issue in the end times western church. The more I study it, the more I realize I don't believe it at all. Dividing people when God himself said there was no division, but in fact, there is unity in Christ. As we edge closer to the tribulation and the "secret rapture" doesn't materialize I am of the belief that many will give up on Christianity, because they were taught that they would be removed from the earth.  It seems that in the days of Noah that the righteous were the ones that remained while the wicked were taken. Not to mention, the Bible makes it clear that the tares are removed first and then the wheat is harvested. Matthew 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn. 
 

[wingnut-]

12 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Wingnut,

(Placing this discussion in context of the thread for others.) We are discussing who the `elect` is from Matthew 24: 31. Some have thought it is the Body of Christ and some Israel. As I have already stated that for the Lord to mean the Body of Christ He would have been deceiving the people of Israel to whom He was speaking, as all they knew was that they were the `elect.` Then also the Lord would have been lying as He would have been revealing the Body of Christ which He explicitly says to Paul that that revelation was not known before. As we well know the Lord is not deceitful or lying, thus when He says, `elect` He means Israel, those to whom He is speaking of their future.

As to Rom. 9 God is saying specifically that it is from Isaac`s line that come the children of the promise. The promised seed is Christ as Galatian`s tells us.

1.  Thus those of Isaac`s line, the children of the promise, are those in Israel of that line who believe God for what He specifically tells them of their inheritance - rulership on earth over the nations.  

2. Those who are born again of Christ are of Abraham`s seed, ie Christ, and are heirs of what God specifically tells us is our inheritance - rulership over the universe. (Rev. 3: 21)

These great topics would benefit from their own thread. I will close this thread soon (you may want to reply) as people are having trouble staying on topic and it may stir them to start those great topics themselves.

have enjoyed talking to you, wingnut. Marilyn.

 

Hey Marilyn,

I guess where we differ here is in regards to how we view that promise.  The promise was the Messiah, and that promise was kept, but the Jews rejected Him as was foretold.  This was done to include the Gentiles, and through Jesus we became joint heirs in that promise.  If he abides in us, and we abide in Him, then as part of His body we are Jews inwardly, as Paul states.

The prophets not only prophesied about the Messiah, but they also prophesied about the Gentiles inclusion as well.  The Jews not understanding these things in no way reflects on the truthfulness of them being foretold.

 

Isaiah 65  I was ready to be sought by those who did not ask for me;
    I was ready to be found by those who did not seek me.
I said, “Here I am, here I am,”
    to a nation that was not called by my name.

 

Deuteronomy 32:21 They have made me jealous with what is no god;
    they have provoked me to anger with their idols.
So I will make them jealous with those who are no people;
    I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation.

 

Romans 9:24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? 25 As indeed he says in Hosea,

“Those who were not my people I will call ‘my people,’
    and her who was not beloved I will call ‘beloved.’”
26 “And in the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’
    there they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’”

 

The inclusion of the Gentiles is just as much a part of the promise, going all the way back to the days of Moses.  Sorry to hear you are going to close the thread, was enjoying the conversation as well.  I am not sure how this topic can be properly addressed in regards to the elect if evidence contrary to your position is regarded as being off topic, to me, this is at the very heart of the discussion as to why we view things differently.  It's kinda like hosting a championship fight and then telling the challenger he has to box with both hands tied behind his back.  

God bless

[wingnut-]

9 hours ago, Ann Marie said:

Dispensationalism seems to be the biggest problematic issue in the end times western church. The more I study it, the more I realize I don't believe it at all. Dividing people when God himself said there was no division, but in fact, there is unity in Christ. As we edge closer to the tribulation and the "secret rapture" doesn't materialize I am of the belief that many will give up on Christianity, because they were taught that they would be removed from the earth.  It seems that in the days of Noah that the righteous were the ones that remained while the wicked were taken. Not to mention, the Bible makes it clear that the tares are removed first and then the wheat is harvested. Matthew 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn. 
 

 

[Retrobyter]

13 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Retro,

As this is NOT a thread of discussing whether the Body of Christ is now Israel or joined to Israel, I will leave that till its own thread.

Marilyn.

Shalom, Marilyn.

Just so you know, I took your advice and began just such a thread. However, because this is more fundamental than prophecy or eschatology, I started it under Doctrinal Questions, if you care to join.

[Marilyn C]

6 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Marilyn.

Just so you know, I took your advice and began just such a thread. However, because this is more fundamental than prophecy or eschatology, I started it under Doctrinal Questions, if you care to join.

Hi Retro,

Thank you for telling me and I`m glad you have started its own thread as it is a very, very important topic that unravels all of scripture, I believe. It would have been `lost` on this thread about the post trib.

Again, thank you and bless you, bro. Marilyn.

[Marilyn C]

7 hours ago, wingnut- said:

 

Hey Marilyn,

I guess where we differ here is in regards to how we view that promise.  The promise was the Messiah, and that promise was kept, but the Jews rejected Him as was foretold.  This was done to include the Gentiles, and through Jesus we became joint heirs in that promise.  If he abides in us, and we abide in Him, then as part of His body we are Jews inwardly, as Paul states.

The prophets not only prophesied about the Messiah, but they also prophesied about the Gentiles inclusion as well.  The Jews not understanding these things in no way reflects on the truthfulness of them being foretold.

 

Isaiah 65  I was ready to be sought by those who did not ask for me;
    I was ready to be found by those who did not seek me.
I said, “Here I am, here I am,”
    to a nation that was not called by my name.

 

Deuteronomy 32:21 They have made me jealous with what is no god;
    they have provoked me to anger with their idols.
So I will make them jealous with those who are no people;
    I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation.

 

Romans 9:24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? 25 As indeed he says in Hosea,

“Those who were not my people I will call ‘my people,’
    and her who was not beloved I will call ‘beloved.’”
26 “And in the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’
    there they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’”

 

The inclusion of the Gentiles is just as much a part of the promise, going all the way back to the days of Moses.  Sorry to hear you are going to close the thread, was enjoying the conversation as well.  I am not sure how this topic can be properly addressed in regards to the elect if evidence contrary to your position is regarded as being off topic, to me, this is at the very heart of the discussion as to why we view things differently.  It's kinda like hosting a championship fight and then telling the challenger he has to box with both hands tied behind his back.  

God bless

Hi wingnut,

I take you point and am glad to see that Retro has started  a thread on that topic. As I said to him it would have been lost here on this thread. As regards the Gentiles being included in Israel, we know that many were - Ruth, etc however the Body of Christ is a `new man` under Christ as Israel is under Christ. Look forward to discussing it on Retro`s thread.

I was wanting to close the thread as others had gone far off topic into ages of the earth etc. That also needs its own thread so people can find it. I`m not trying to be `mean` or tight fisted, but  trying to keep the discussion on course. I do see what you mean regarding - Israel and the Body of Christ, but hope it can be more fully discussed on its own thread as I said.

regards, Marilyn.

[Marilyn C]

17 hours ago, Ann Marie said:

Dispensationalism seems to be the biggest problematic issue in the end times western church. The more I study it, the more I realize I don't believe it at all. Dividing people when God himself said there was no division, but in fact, there is unity in Christ. As we edge closer to the tribulation and the "secret rapture" doesn't materialize I am of the belief that many will give up on Christianity, because they were taught that they would be removed from the earth.  It seems that in the days of Noah that the righteous were the ones that remained while the wicked were taken. Not to mention, the Bible makes it clear that the tares are removed first and then the wheat is harvested. Matthew 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn. 
 

Hi Ann Marie,

Pleased to meet you and hear your comments. I agree there is no division in Christ, however there are different inheritances, responsibilities for different ones, just as in any family. Perhaps we can join the others on Retrobyter`s thread in the doctrinal area on this important subject.

regards, Marilyn.

[fixerupper]

Quote

Dispensationalism seems to be the biggest problematic issue in the end times western church. The more I study it, the more I realize I don't believe it at all. Dividing people when God himself said there was no division, but in fact, there is unity in Christ. As we edge closer to the tribulation and the "secret rapture" doesn't materialize I am of the belief that many will give up on Christianity, because they were taught that they would be removed from the earth.  It seems that in the days of Noah that the righteous were the ones that remained while the wicked were taken. Not to mention, the Bible makes it clear that the tares are removed first and then the wheat is harvested. Matthew 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn. 

Happy to find somebody on my side for once, not only that, there's NOTHING in your post that I disagre with.  You've described an encapsulation of my studies. When the world goes bad and there's no global dictator or one world religion, and everyone is still here...makes me wonder too.

You have the gathering figured out.  Now look at the rest of that dispensational view....a 2,000 year time gap called the 70th week, a 7 year tribulation, a one world religion and government, a global dictator, the rebuilding of a temple, etc. I say that's likely all wrong too and people are beginning to realize it.  Length of tribulation I'm unsure of.

Edited June 29, 2017 by fixerupper