ERRORS of the POST-TRIB. view.

[Marilyn C]

5 minutes ago, fixerupper said:

Happy to find somebody on my side for once, not only that, there's NOTHING in your post that I disagre with.  You've described an encapsulation of my studies. When the world goes bad and there's no global dictator or one world religion, and everyone is still here...makes me wonder too.

You have the gathering figured out.  Now look at the rest of that dispensational view....a 2,000 year time gap called the 70th week, a 7 year tribulation, a one world religion and government, a global dictator, the rebuilding of a temple, etc. I say that's likely all wrong too and people are beginning to realize it.  Length of tribulation I'm unsure of.

Hi fixerupper,

We`ll see in 2 years time whether you still believe that. Time will tell for us all.

Marilyn.

[Marilyn C]

What has been highlighted to me from this topic is that the post trib. view and the pre-trib view are closely linked to whether or not the Body of Christ is joined to Israel. I think it is good that Retro has started a thread to discuss this important point in greater detail.

Marilyn.

[fixerupper]

12 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi fixerupper,

We`ll see in 2 years time whether you still believe that. Time will tell for us all.

Marilyn.

And I'm going to say that YOU will see within two years time that Islam is bringing tribulation to the world.  You guys have a whole lot of stuff that has to change SOON for things to come down your way.  for me, the prophesied evil religion of the last days, Babylon the Great the Mother of jihadist IS HERE!  I'm waiting for the formation of two Caliphates already in the works!  And to think!  The harlot promisses the jihadist a mansion with up to 72 bedrooms and 72 virgins in paradise.  The number of virgins is dependent upon the level of the abomination you commit.  So like, flying jet planes into skyscrapers is a big one with big rewards.

What do you see here...

Edited June 29, 2017 by fixerupper

[Marilyn C]

Just now, fixerupper said:

And I'm going to say that YOU will see within two years time that Islam is bringing tribulation to the world.  You guys have a whole lot of stuff that has to change SOON for things to come down your way.  for me, the prophesied evil religion of the last days, Babylon the Great the Mother of jihadist IS HERE!  I'm waiting for the formation of two Caliphates already in the works!  And to think!  The harlot promisses the jihadist a mansion with up to 72 bedrooms and 72 virgins in paradise.  The number of virgins is dependent upon the level of the abomination you commit.  So like, flying jet planes into skyscrapers is a big one with big rewards.

What do you see here...

Hi fixerupper,

I agree with you concerning Islam and the Harlot. Glad you brought that up. I am not of the view of the RRE but of a contemporary view with contemporary powers.

Marilyn.

[fixerupper]

5 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi fixerupper,

I agree with you concerning Islam and the Harlot. Glad you brought that up. I am not of the view of the RRE but of a contemporary view with contemporary powers.

Marilyn.

That's good.  I use to believe in the RRE, and tosed it out about 1991.  There's a whole lot of stuff that's just not going to come down the way Christians expect.

[Marilyn C]

9 minutes ago, fixerupper said:

That's good.  I use to believe in the RRE, and tosed it out about 1991.  There's a whole lot of stuff that's just not going to come down the way Christians expect.

[wingnut-]

2 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi wingnut,

I take you point and am glad to see that Retro has started  a thread on that topic. As I said to him it would have been lost here on this thread. As regards the Gentiles being included in Israel, we know that many were - Ruth, etc however the Body of Christ is a `new man` under Christ as Israel is under Christ. Look forward to discussing it on Retro`s thread.

I was wanting to close the thread as others had gone far off topic into ages of the earth etc. That also needs its own thread so people can find it. I`m not trying to be `mean` or tight fisted, but  trying to keep the discussion on course. I do see what you mean regarding - Israel and the Body of Christ, but hope it can be more fully discussed on its own thread as I said.

regards, Marilyn.

 

Hey Marilyn,

I do understand about some of the side conversations that took place, I was mostly referring to Retro's last post which I thought was on point with the topic at hand, regarding the elect.  As always I appreciate the discussions we have, and look forward to more in the future.

God bless ya sis

[Marilyn C]

Just now, wingnut- said:

 

Hey Marilyn,

I do understand about some of the side conversations that took place, I was mostly referring to Retro's last post which I thought was on point with the topic at hand, regarding the elect.  As always I appreciate the discussions we have, and look forward to more in the future.

God bless ya sis

[Reinitin]

On 6/14/2017 at 2:19 AM, Marilyn C said:

ERRORS OF THE POST TRIB. VIEW.

The main reason, I believe that people think that the rapture is at the end of the tribulation, is because they confuse God`s purposes for – the Body of Christ, Israel and the Nations.

When we read a newspaper or magazine, etc we know that when someone is speaking to a person or a group, then it is not us they are talking to. This also applies to reading God`s word. We can read of God talking through the prophets to specific people or Israel or the nations, and know that He is talking to them. Also when Jesus was manifest on earth and was talking to specific people or Israel, then we know that He is specifically talking to them.

Christ is the centre of God`s word, His character and His purposes, and it only brings confusion and error to place ourselves as the centre.  

The following scriptures are the most generally used to support the post-trib. view, however I believe they concern Israel & the nations and NOT the Body of Christ.

1.Matthew 24. This gives a detailed account of what will happen to Israel & the nations. The revelation of the Body of Christ is not given till many years later when Jesus, the Head of the body reveals His purpose for them and their end-time details through the Apostle Paul.

 

ERROR. Believing that Jesus is telling of the Body of Christ`s future in the end-times.

 

2.Matthew 24: 31. `And he will send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.`

The `elect` is Israel. `For Jacob my servant`s sake, and Israel my ELECT.` (Is. 45: 4)

 

ERROR. Believing that the elect in that scripture, is the Body of Christ.

 

You may like to comment upon my thoughts.

well i lean post trib but for none of the reasons you listed. Jesus said. when he explained the wheat and the tares. "First gather the tares bundle them and throw them in the fire." 

there are tons of scriptures in context that plainly tell us, give us instructions, warn us, and encourage us to endure. Pre trib is a very few out of context obscure verses and all the blanks filled with human explanation and ideology. surely there are hidden treasures for us all through scripture but the Lord did not hide his plans from us. He doesnt want us to be caught unaware.  1 thess 5.

 

[KiwiChristian]

    THE SECOND COMING OF JESUS CHRIST TO EARTH

Aim: 1. To summarise Bible teaching on the Second coming.

2.     To motivate Christians to fervently serve Christ in view of Christ’s return at any time and our accountability to Him. 

A.     FACT OF CHRIST’S RETURN 

    Jesus promised it (John 14:1-3). Angels promised it (Acts 1:8-11). 
B.     WHEN WILL CHRIST RETURN 

    No human or angel knows when (Matthew 24:36). 
    We can, however, observe some signs in the world today indicating that Christ’s return may be near: 

C.     SIGNS OF CHRIST’S RETURN 

1.     Return of the Jews to the land of Israel (Ezekiel 37:1-14,21-28; Matthew 24:32,33; Joel 1:6,7) 
2.     Rise of Russia as an anti-Israel power (Ezekiel 38-39). 
3.     Rise of 10-nation revived Roman Empire in Europe (Daniel 2:40-44; 7:7-28, Revelations 13). 
4.     Ability of man to destroy the earth (Revelations 11:18). 
5.     Increase in travel and knowledge in the time of the end. (Daniel 12:4). 
6.     Ecumenical movement including the World Council of Churches and Rome leading to a One-World religious system called “Mystery Babylon” in Revelations 17-18. 
7.     One world money system (Revelations 13:16-18). 

D.     WHY STUDY CHRIST’S SECOND COMING? 

1.     About one quarter of the Bible refers to it. 
2.     Christ taught it. (Matthew 24-25) 
3.     It increases our desire to serve God in winning souls and making disciples, because Jesus may come today, requiring us to give account of our life to Him. (1 John 2:28; Matthew 24:42-44). 
4.     God blesses those who read the prophecy of Revelation. (Revelation 1:3). 
5.     It tells of ultimate victory for Christ and the believer, and his forces. This is why Satan doesn’t want us to study and teach it. 
6.     It encourages us in our trials that the spiritual war will soon be over, guaranteeing us peace forevermore. 

E.     WHAT ARE THE ORDER OF EVENTS IN GOD’S PROGRAM? 
1.     THE CHURCH AGE from the Apostles (Ephesians 4:7-12) to the Rapture. The 7 Churches of Revelation 2 and 3 describe: 
a)     Church periods that this age is divided into. 
b)     Churches existing in John’s time. 
c)     The spiritual condition of any church at any time. 
d)     The spiritual condition of any believer at any time. When Jesus begins a parable with: “The Kingdom of heaven is like unto….” He is describing what the Church age or the outward form of Christendom will be like from Pentecost to the Rapture. 

2.     RAPTURE is the catching away of all dead and living believers from earth to heaven. This occurs when Christ comes to the air (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; 1 Corinthians 15:51-54; 
    11 Thessalonians 2:1-12; Revelation 3:10; 4:1-2). This event ends the Church age. Then commences the 7 year Tribulation with the appearance of the Antichrist. 
    The Rapture is the “blessed hope” of Titus 2:13 that believers are waiting for. Believers will be raptured before the Tribulation period, and will not pass through any of it because: 

    1. We are looking for Christ to come (Titus 2:13). We are not looking for the Antichrist to confirm the covenant with Israel. (Daniel 9:27). 
    2. Christ’s coming is called a “blessed hope” and the Tribulation is not a blessed hope to look forward to going through. 
    3.  “God hath not appointed us to wrath . . .” (1 Thessalonians 5:9). 
    4. The Church and John are raptured at Revelation 4:1,2 which is before the start of the Tribulation. (Revelation 6:1). 
    5. The Tribulation is likened to Noah’s Flood and the Judgment on Sodom and Gomorrah where God spared the righteous. (Matthew 24:37). 
    6. God promises to keep the Philadelphian Church from (out of) the Tribulation period (Revelation 3:10). 
    7. If we are to be raptured midway or at the end of the Tribulation, we would know the day of Christ’s return, which no man knows. (Matthew 24:35). 

3.     THE 7 YEAR TRIBULATION is the greatest time of trouble that Jews or the world have ever seen. It is: 
a)     Divided into 7 seals, 7 trumpets and 7 vials (bowl) judgments. 
b)     Described in Revelation 6-18. 
c)     Stated in Matthew 24:21-22 and Daniel 12:1. 
d)     Ruled by the Antichrist (II Thessalonians 2:3-12; Revelation 13; Daniel 7:19-27) from the 10 nation Revived Roman Empire in Europe. 
e)     Lasts for 7 years. Daniel 9:27 (1 week means 1 group of seven years). In Matthew 24:21 the second half of the Tribulation is called the Great Tribulation. Revelation 11:1-3 states that it lasts 3 1/2 years, 42 months or 1260 days. It commences with the Antichrist placing the abomination of desolation in the rebuilt Temple at Jerusalem (Matthew 24:15 and Daniel 9:27) and the Antichrist persecuting the Jews. 

4.    JUDGMENT SEAT OF CHRIST occurs after believers are raptured. It takes place in heaven during the first half of the 7 year Tribulation period. The quality of a believer’s works after salvation are examined. He either receives rewards or suffers loss of rewards.

Are you living for Christ and eternity or for self and this life only? What does Christ think of you? What rewards or treasures have you laid up in heaven? (Matthew 6:19-21).
5.     MARRIAGE OF THE LAMB (Revelation 19:7-10). 

    The Church is known as the Bride of Christ (Ephesians 5:23-33). 
    The marriage and marriage supper between Christ and all raptured saints occurs in heaven before Christ and His saints return to the earth for the Battle of Armageddon. 

6.     SECOND COMING OF CHRIST TO EARTH 

a)     He comes with the saved. (Zechariah 14:5). 
b)     He comes with lightning speed. (Matthew 24:27-31). 
c)     He comes exactly 2520 days (2 x 1260 days) after the rapture. 

7.     BATTLE OF ARMAGEDDON (Revelation 19:17-21; Zechariah 14:1-15). 

a)     At the end of the 7 year Tribulation, the Antichrist and armies of all nations gather around Israel to destroy all Jews and to take Jerusalem. (Revelation 16:12-16). 
b)     Christ and all the saved then return from heaven (Revelation 19:11-16). 
    Christ defeats the armies of Antichrist instantly at the plain of Megiddo (Revelation 14:14-20). The geography is like a winepress, and blood flows three feet deep for 200 miles. 

c)     After victory at Megiddo and Bozrah (Isaiah 63:1-6) Christ comes and stands on the Mount of Olives, which splits east-west (Zechariah 14:4). He then enters Jerusalem through the now closed East-Gate (Ezekiel 43:1,2). 
d)     Christ will then be King over all the earth and the people that attacked Jerusalem will be plagued by what seems to be nuclear explosions, which will dissolve their flesh (Zechariah 14:12-15; Isaiah 24:5-6). 

8.     JEWS ARE CONVERTED 

a)     After being rescued by Christ following Armageddon, Jews notice the wounds in Christ’s hands and realise that their ancestors crucified their long-awaited Messiah. (Zechariah 13:6). 
b)     This causes repentance and mourning, resulting in the Jewish people being saved by calling on Christ as their Saviour. (Zechariah 12:10 and 13:9). 
c)     The Jews all over the earth are then regathered into Israel. (Isaiah 43:5-7 and Matthew 24:31). 

9.     SATAN IS BOUND in the pit for 1000 years along with his angels. (Revelation 20:1-3). 

10.     THE NATIONS OF THE WORLD ARE JUDGED according to how they treated God’s people during the Tribulation. The righteous (sheep) enter the Millennium, and the others (goats) enter everlasting fire. (Matthew 25:31-46). 

11.     THE MILLENNIUM or 1000 year reign of Christ starts when Christ returns to the earth. What will this period be like? 
a)     Christ will regather all Jews to Israel (Isaiah 43:5-7). 
b)     Jerusalem becomes the world capital, from where Christ rules the earth in person 
    (Isaiah 2:1-4). 
c)     The Jews will become missionaries to the Gentiles (Isaiah 27:6; 61:6; Psalm 67:2). 
d)     Christ builds the Millennial Temple (Zechariah 6:12-15). 
e)     Animal creation will be changed (Isaiah 11:6-9 and 65:25). 
f)     Humans will live much longer (Isaiah 65:20-22; Zechariah 8:4), as long as trees, possibly 1000 years as before the Flood. 
g)     Peace and prosperity will characterise Christ’s rule (Isaiah 2:4) as will universal knowledge of the Lord and private ownership (Micah 4:1-4). 
12.     SATAN IS LOOSED from his prison after the 1000 years and deceives the unsaved of the nations to invade Jerusalem. Fire from God devours them and Satan is then cast into the lake of fire forever (Revelation 20:7-10). 

13.     THE HEAVEN AND EARTH ARE THEN BURNT UP WITH FERVENT (NUCLEAR LIKE) HEAT (11 Peter 3:7-12). 
14.     THE GREAT WHITE THRONE JUDGMENT of the unsaved occurs where all the unsaved people are taken from hell and given immortal, resurrected bodies. This is the second resurrection or tare judgment. (Matthew 13:24-30,36-43). 
    They are then judged according to their works. Since the works that they have trusted in to gain God’s acceptance fall short of Christ’s perfect works, they are all cast alive into the..... 

15.     LAKE OF FIRE where they are tormented forever (Revelation 20:11-15). 

16.     ETERNITY then commences with a new heaven and new earth, as well as the New Jerusalem (1500 miles long, broad and high) coming down from God as the residence of the church (us) forever. (Revelation 21:22). 

 

reprinted with permission from Pastor Keith Piper. https://www.libertybaptistchurch.org.au/