Marilyn C Posted July 21, 2017 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 30 Topic Count: 266 Topics Per Day: 0.07 Content Count: 13,196 Content Per Day: 3.49 Reputation: 8,494 Days Won: 12 Joined: 12/21/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/06/1947 Author Share Posted July 21, 2017 13 hours ago, Last Daze said: Hi Marilyn, According to scripture, Paul told us when the rapture would take place. It happens at the last trumpet, when the trumpet of God sounds. Any explanation of the timing of the rapture needs to address those clear characteristics first and foremost. Purposes, unless explicitly stated, are subjectively inferred. Those characteristics are explicitly stated. Who sounds the trumpet of God but God? When is the last time He does so? The timing of the rapture will line up with the scriptures that speak of the last time God sounds His trumpet. Find those scriptures, find the rapture. I can't find a time later than Zechariah 9:14. Consequently, my view of the rapture is the time that that verse is speaking of whether you call it pre, post, mid, or whatever. Its the last time I see God sounding His trumpet. According to Paul, that's when the rapture happens. Hi Last Daze, These are my thoughts on the `last trumpet.` Concerning the `last trump` being the 7th one in the trib. that would be a very superficial reading of scripture. God`s voice is described `as a trumpet,` (Rev. 1: 10 & 4: 1) and we can see by the different contexts who He is speaking (trumpeting) to. In Cor. 15 we see that God is speaking (trumpeting) to the Body of Christ, for the last time because after that they will speak `face to face` in glory. Then in Matt. 24 by context realise that God is speaking to Israel. They are His elect (also). He sends his angels with a great sound of a trumpet. Then in Rev. 11: 15 we realise that God is speaking (trumpeting) to the nations of the world. Thus, it all, as everything depends on what God is saying and to whom. regards, Marilyn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marilyn C Posted July 21, 2017 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 30 Topic Count: 266 Topics Per Day: 0.07 Content Count: 13,196 Content Per Day: 3.49 Reputation: 8,494 Days Won: 12 Joined: 12/21/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/06/1947 Author Share Posted July 21, 2017 8 hours ago, fixerupper said: I know the mystery he's refering to has nothing to do with a rapture. Only somebody who hasn't done their own study of the text would believe that. "For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles, If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words," This revelation is how Jews and Gentiles would be joined together in one body of Christ. The truth of this mystery means that Gentiles are now full partakers of His promise. 4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) 5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; This is the MYSTERY described.... Verse 6...That the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel, of which I became a minister according to the gift of the grace of God given to me by the effective working of His power. Pre-trib. It's one fabrication after another. Hi fixerupper, Now this is the post where I was talking to Reinitin, and it does not refer to the rapture, but to the revelation of the Body of Christ. Hi Reinitin, However who is the Lord talking to? Remember that the Body of Christ had not been revealed to man. (Eph. 3: 3 - 5) So if you think the Lord is talking about us, then He would have been deceitful to the people of Israel and a liar. As we well know, He is neither, so then He was talking to the people of Israel concerning their future. regards, Marilyn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fixerupper Posted July 21, 2017 Group: Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service Followers: 1 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 430 Content Per Day: 0.17 Reputation: 131 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/20/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted July 21, 2017 9 hours ago, Wayne222 said: You are correct. Now Christ was talking to his disciples . They asked him for the sign of the end of the age. No where does Christ state in Matt 24 of coming for his church before in that passage. Why would he leave it out ? The disciples were already followers of Jesus. It says in Matt at the sound of the trumpet he will gather the elect. In thess it says at the last trumpet the dead will rise. In rev it says after the seventh trumpet all will be finish. It really isn't that difficult to figure out is it? You're on the right track. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fixerupper Posted July 21, 2017 Group: Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service Followers: 1 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 430 Content Per Day: 0.17 Reputation: 131 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/20/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted July 21, 2017 2 hours ago, Marilyn C said: Hi fixerupper, Now this is the post where I was talking to Reinitin, and it does not refer to the rapture, but to the revelation of the Body of Christ. Hi Reinitin, However who is the Lord talking to? Remember that the Body of Christ had not been revealed to man. (Eph. 3: 3 - 5) So if you think the Lord is talking about us, then He would have been deceitful to the people of Israel and a liar. As we well know, He is neither, so then He was talking to the people of Israel concerning their future. regards, Marilyn. And the passage itself says oterwise... The passage is talking about US, i.e. GENTILE believers, being grated into Israel! This is the MYSTERY described....Verse 6...That the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel, of which I became a minister according to the gift of the grace of God given to me by the effective working of His power. So I guess the Lord and Paul were deceitful liars to Israel! Marilyn, can't you see that you're doing what you can to support a bunch of fabricated falsity? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fixerupper Posted July 21, 2017 Group: Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service Followers: 1 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 430 Content Per Day: 0.17 Reputation: 131 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/20/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted July 21, 2017 9 hours ago, Wayne222 said: The blessed hope is the redemption of our bodies at the resurection . And that redemption is what makes us, "not appointed to wrath" which comes at judgment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fixerupper Posted July 21, 2017 Group: Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service Followers: 1 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 430 Content Per Day: 0.17 Reputation: 131 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/20/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted July 21, 2017 Quote These are my thoughts on the `last trumpet.' Those are NOT your thoughts on the last trumpet. They are pre-trib fabrications that have been around for decades. Quote Concerning the `last trump` being the 7th one in the trib. that would be a very superficial reading of scripture. I know, pre-tribers are master complicators. That would be a VERY poor exegetical understanding of scripture. The 'last trump' can be no other than 'the seventh' trump! It's so obvios how you pre-tribbers love to pervert the Words of God! Quote God`s voice is described `as a trumpet, (Rev. 1: 10 & 4: 1) and we can see by the different contexts who He is speaking (trumpeting) to. Thayer's says about MATHEW 24:31, 1 COR. 14:8, REV. 1:10, 4:1, 8:2, 13, 6, and 9:14,..."A TRUMPET THAT SOUNDS AT GOD'S COMMAND." Angels sound trumpets too! Quote In Cor. 15 we see that God is speaking (trumpeting) to the Body of Christ, for the last time because after that they will speak `face to face` in glory. And that time is the Day of the Lord, the 'parousia, the gathering, occuring "immediately after the tribulation!" Quote Then in Matt. 24 by context realise that God is speaking to Israel. They are His elect (also). He sends his angels with a great sound of a trumpet. Quote Then in Rev. 11: 15 we realise that God is speaking (trumpeting) to the nations of the world. Thus, it all, as everything depends on what God is saying and to whom. Context, something pre-tribbers know nothing about! So lets see. You went from Revelation 1:10 to Revelation 4:1 to 1 Cor. 15, to Revelation 11:15 to pervert the words of Jesus is Mathew 24 where he said, 29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Way to go Marilyn! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heleadethme Posted July 21, 2017 Group: Royal Member Followers: 15 Topic Count: 13 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,371 Content Per Day: 1.36 Reputation: 3,267 Days Won: 5 Joined: 07/10/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted July 21, 2017 Coming in late here, don't think I can catch up with 27 pages........so just want to put a few things in the pot, and some might be repetition of what others have already said, otherwise it is just my part, my portion....I think there is that we all just have a part, in a way. It is the church/ekklesia that is the mystery of God from the foundation of the world (Jew & Gentile, grafted into the faith of OT saints who are the Israel of God). The church is made up of a remnant (firstfruits) of every nation, including Israel. Few there be that find the narrow way that leads to life. Israel is the ensample (living parable) to the church, written down that we would learn from Israel and her journey. We should neither make too much of Israel, nor write her off. Remember that Abraham was taken from the Gentiles, and saved by faith.....He was a "Gentile" before being chosen and called out (ekklesia) by the Lord......Israel is called the church in the wilderness....our ensample. The raptured church is the New Jerusalem and will rule and reign with Christ on the earth. That said, New Jerusalem is coming down to Israel to replace the old Jersusalem which will be left desolate. God will honour Israel in the end among the nations........so much of what is written about Israel is for the church.....and yet I believe He will fulfill His word in the natural realm as well concerning Israel who will be the head of nations.....where we already have seen prophecy being fulfilled in the natural realm, often more than once. So i don't think we have to argue about whether it is spiritual for the church or earthly for Israel, because it is both. The important thing though is that nothing changes about the mandate of the gospel........the assignment of the church is to preach the gospel and make disciples of ALL nations, including Israel. Otherwise all perish in their sins because the gospel is the only way to eternal life for anybody, Jew or Gentile........and time is growing short. Jesus said no one is greater than their Teacher, He was persecuted and so will we. It is appointed unto us to suffer for His name, so I have no problem believing we will be here for the Tribulation.....in this world we will have tribulation but fear not He has overcome the world.......we will be hated of all nations including unbelieving Israel.......and it will be used greatly by God to prepare His church for His soon coming......we know that persecution and suffering has always been good for the church to strengthen it spiritually and in our weakness His strength is made perfect. In the book of Esther we get a picture of the glory that will be upon His church as we suffer for His name during the tribulation........where we will be spiritually armed to the teeth to fight the evil that is coming against us and will triumph in the way that God always leads us in triumph......spiritually........that HIS glory will be seen upon us. It is for HIS glory. So great glory is coming for the church.......He is not leaving us as orphans to go through this without Him. But worry not for the morrow, sufficient unto today are the troubles.......He gives grace for today, whatever we go through we go through one day at a time with Him.......and in the tribulation we know that it will only be for a short while before He comes for His own.....blessed hope indeed! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reinitin Posted July 21, 2017 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 13 Topic Count: 51 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 2,366 Content Per Day: 0.78 Reputation: 2,150 Days Won: 9 Joined: 01/10/2016 Status: Offline Share Posted July 21, 2017 4 hours ago, Marilyn C said: Hi Reinitin, Why I said thank you in my last post, was that I understand that my comment would seem wrong to you. Sorry that you thought that. What I was referring to was that Christ did not speak to Israel concerning the Body of Christ, as He had not yet revealed that revelation to the apostle Paul yet. regards, Marilyn. Morning Marilyn, Gods plan didn't change. His prophets spoke of it. The gentile nations grafted in to the Abrahamic promise was passed by Isaac when he laid his hand on his younger grand son to pass on the blessings of God. Genesis 48 I think? you study in hebrew right? blessing on ephram? full number of the gentiles? gentile nations? There are at least three prophetic witnesses to every biblical truth. The Gentile participation in the body of Christ was revealed first to Peter in a dream and confirmed by God in the giving of the Holy Spirit. Peter was baptising gentiles before paul ever recieves a revelation. Just because men can't see it doesn't mean God is not doing what he said. God has proclaimed that truth is confirmed by three witnesses. We even have three witness that confirm our salvation. The Blood, The Water and The Spirit. There are not three prophetic witnesses to a pretrib raptute. It Wasnt even thought of till about 1830. On a personal note. Are you sorry i thought it or sorry you wrote it? sincerly, Lisa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Last Daze Posted July 21, 2017 Group: Royal Member Followers: 9 Topic Count: 84 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 4,011 Content Per Day: 1.12 Reputation: 2,519 Days Won: 4 Joined: 07/17/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted July 21, 2017 10 hours ago, Marilyn C said: Hi Last Daze, These are my thoughts on the `last trumpet.` Concerning the `last trump` being the 7th one in the trib. that would be a very superficial reading of scripture. God`s voice is described `as a trumpet,` (Rev. 1: 10 & 4: 1) and we can see by the different contexts who He is speaking (trumpeting) to. In Cor. 15 we see that God is speaking (trumpeting) to the Body of Christ, for the last time because after that they will speak `face to face` in glory. Then in Matt. 24 by context realise that God is speaking to Israel. They are His elect (also). He sends his angels with a great sound of a trumpet. Then in Rev. 11: 15 we realise that God is speaking (trumpeting) to the nations of the world. Thus, it all, as everything depends on what God is saying and to whom. regards, Marilyn. Extrapolating a passage that describes Jesus' voice as sounding like a trumpet into the notion that every time God speaks He is "trumpeting" is not taught in scripture and really doesn't make sense. At the last trumpet does God stop speaking? You're saying that there is a proximity threshold (face to face) where God speaking is no longer considered trumpeting? Based on what scripture? How far away from God does one need to be for His speaking to be considered trumpeting? Seems that John was pretty close to Him in Revelation 1. Wouldn't that be considered face to face? Yet what John heard was like a trumpet. Paul would have been well aware of Zechariah 9:14. He also would have been well aware of another time that God sounded a trumpet. If there is a last trumpet, there is a first trumpet. When did God first sound His trumpet? Read Exodus 19. The similarities are quite interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne222 Posted July 21, 2017 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 32 Topic Count: 475 Topics Per Day: 0.17 Content Count: 6,557 Content Per Day: 2.28 Reputation: 7,637 Days Won: 9 Joined: 06/12/2016 Status: Offline Share Posted July 21, 2017 8 hours ago, fixerupper said: Those are NOT your thoughts on the last trumpet. They are pre-trib fabrications that have been around for decades. I know, pre-tribers are master complicators. That would be a VERY poor exegetical understanding of scripture. The 'last trump' can be no other than 'the seventh' trump! It's so obvios how you pre-tribbers love to pervert the Words of God! Thayer's says about MATHEW 24:31, 1 COR. 14:8, REV. 1:10, 4:1, 8:2, 13, 6, and 9:14,..."A TRUMPET THAT SOUNDS AT GOD'S COMMAND." Angels sound trumpets too! And that time is the Day of the Lord, the 'parousia, the gathering, occuring "immediately after the tribulation!" Context, something pre-tribbers know nothing about! So lets see. You went from Revelation 1:10 to Revelation 4:1 to 1 Cor. 15, to Revelation 11:15 to pervert the words of Jesus is Mathew 24 where he said, 29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Way to go Marilyn! Even thou I agree with your post tribulation view why the hostility? We can have different views on this and still be one in unity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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