Jesus' Return II

[JohnD]

23 hours ago, When Is Jesus Coming? said:

Jesus died nearly 2000 years ago and according to the Bible this was about 4000 years from creation. It also says Jesus will reign for a 1000 years and that a day is like a 1000 years and a 1000 years is like a day. God created the the world in 6 days and rested on the Sabbath and also Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath. 

So as more and more Christian's are becoming convinced that Jesus's return is going to happen soon, could Jesus return on the 6000th year to complete the prophetic week. If so this should be between 2029 to 2033. And the 7 year tribulation could start as early as 2022. 

According to Zechariah, when the Jews cry out to Jesus for salvation... he will return and set foot on the Mount of Olives (it will split in two). And the Jews will mourn for rejecting him and for their role in his crucifixion.

[Revelation Man]

12 hours ago, Sister said:

Do you see something here?

 Revelation 20:1   And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

 Revelation 20:2   And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

 Revelation 20:3   And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

  Revelation 20:4   And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

 Revelation 20:6   Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

I see the Judgment Seat set up to judge those Martyred during the Tribulation for Christ's name, these are the Saints under the Alter in the 5th Seal,not the Church who married the Lamb in Rev. 19 and came back with Jesus just as the Scriptures say. These will reign with Christ for a 1000 years. The FIRST RESURRECTION is all that are in Christ Jesus, the Dead that arise at the Rapture, those who were alive that got Raptured, and the Martyrs of the Tribulation.

 

12 hours ago, Sister said:

Isaiah 63:1   Who is this that cometh from Edom, with dyed garments from Bozrah? this that is glorious in his apparel, travelling in the greatness of his strength? I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save.

  Isaiah 63:2   Wherefore art thou red in thine apparel, and thy garments like him that treadeth in the winefat?

  Isaiah 63:3   I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment.

  Isaiah 63:4   For the day of vengeance is in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come.

  Isaiah 63:5   And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me.

This is about some Warrior that that went to Edom/ the city of Bozrah and conquered it it seems to me. If It was a type then it signifies a DEEP FACT that is shown throughout scriptures that no one disputes. Vengeance is mine saith the Lord. We understand that Jesus destroys the Beast/Anti-Christ, his kings and all the Wicked "WITHOUT HAND" which means by the Holy Spirit. None helps the Lord, he doesn't need it. Over and over we are told the Wicked are destroyed Without Hand, by the Glory of His coming, by the Sword of his Mouth. (Holy Spirit). We know whose vengeance it is and who destroys the Wicked. 

12 hours ago, Sister said:

 Matthew 16:27   For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

 

He will come with his angels at the Rapture I assume, and with the Church and his Angels at the Second Coming. The Marriage Feast in Revelation 19 suggest the culmination of the Wedding. What do you think Matthew 24::27 really means?

27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

Revelation 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

The Carcase scripture in Matthew 28 is in reference to where the Marriage supper will be when Jesus and the Church  comes back, and the Holy Spirit destroys the Wicked. Of course we get rewarded after the Judgment Seats are set up and the FIRST RESURRECTION is fully over, why would Jesus Reward anyone before the First Resurrection was fully over? 

12 hours ago, Sister said:

 Matthew 25:31   When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

 

Again, no one denies the Angels come with Christ. We see that in Scriptures, and we see the Church comes back with Jesus also in Rev. 19 and the Elect are gathered from the Four Corners of HEAVEN in Matthew 24:31.

12 hours ago, Sister said:

  Mark 8:38   Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.

 

Again, the two are not mutually exclusive. If you read an article that tells you all of the Players of an NBA team are going to be at a parade on July 2nd in downtown San Francisco in one Newspaper, then read that the Team Management, Coaches and owners will be at the parade in another Newspaper, neither Newspaper is saying the other group is not coming, but by putting both Newspapers together we can understand that BOTH the Players and the Management/Owners/Coaches are going to show up. LIKEWISE, both the Angels and the Church is coming with Jesus Christ SEE REVELATION 19..........By the way the Angels coming with Jesus seems to Contradict the Isaiah chapter 63 passage !! 

12 hours ago, Sister said:

 2 Thessalonians 1:7   And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

Of course if we put this together, we understand the Thessalonians had been told they were In the Day of the Lords Vengeance, see chapter 2. Paul is telling them you are not in Gods Wrath, the Tribulation you face will be repaid by God and his Angels will be with Him. Of Course the Church will be with Jesus also, but the Thessalonians was thinking they were in the Tribulation/Day of the Lord, so Paul telling them that wasn't exactly something that would reassure them, what hey needed to hear Paul told them in 2 Thessalonians 2, that they would not go through the Day of the Lord, that instead they would be Gathered unto Christ, they would DEPART then the Anti-Christ would be revealed. 

Edited June 25, 2017 by Revelation Man

[Revelation Man]

1 hour ago, inchrist said:

Can you please teach me what this means

Rev 11:18

The time has come for judging the dead

Rev. 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

 

Rev. 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

 

WHO ARE THE DEAD SPOKEN OF IN REVELATION 11:18? Look Below !!

Rev. 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Notice in Rev. 11:18 that the DEAD that will be judged is only the Martyrs who died during the Tribulation period. NOT ALL THE DEAD. (See Rev. 20:4) And the wicked that is spoken of will be Destroyed or killed. The Second Resurrection will be in 1000 years, when the Wicked will be Judged. Amen. The First Resurrection is the Rapture of the dead Saints, those Alive when he calls us home, and those who came to Christ after the Rapture or Resisted unto death the Mark of the Beast ( Which means they chose Christ over Satan/Beast/Anti-Christ OF COURSE. )

Now in Rev. 20:4 we see that the BEHEADED (Martyrs) are the ones being JUDGED, the ones that did not take the Mark of the Beast. They (the Martyrs of Tribulation) shall reign with Christ a 1000 years. They were not in Heaven (Rev. 19) marrying the Lamb, of course. So they need to be Judged now. The Second Resurrection or the Judgment of the Evil will be brought to pass in 1000 years.

Revelation 6:9 of course is the Martyred Saints under the Alter, they are murdered during the Tribulation, they want vengeance on those people ON EARTH !! As in present tense, at that time, and are told by Jesus they MUST WAIT until their fellow brothers are killed also, or basically until the Anti-Christs 42 Month reign is over. Notice the 5th Seal comes after the Four Horses or the First Four Seals where the Anti-Christ comes forth and kills 1.5 to 2 Billion people. Most are Muslims/Hindus etc. etc. because the Church has been Raptured, but many are those that resist and except Christ after the Rapture, they are the REMNANT (Rev. 12:17) of the Church. Israel is protected in the Wilderness, at least the ones who heeded Jesus' words to Flee are. 

I explained it as best I can. God Bless

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, fixerupper said:

If you don't wish to accept logical evidence, a day is coming when you'll be thouroughly misled.  The world will be hurled into tribulation and the man of sin will be here and you guys will be waiting for a rapture.  

No, I am not the one misled. It is going to be just as John has told us: The day of His wrath begins at the 6th seal, and the rapture will take place a moment before that. Just so you know, the great earthquake at the 6th seal is Paul's "sudden destruction. You see, when the dead in Christ are raised, that will cause a worldwide earthquake as God instantly brings together those atoms or quarks that used to make up the bodies of those dead in Christ.

At that moment in time, two groups of people will get two different results: those living in Christ, in the light of the gospel, will get "salvation" or raptured, and get to live together with Him (so shall we ever be with the Lord).

At the same moment in time, those living in darkness cannot escape. They will suffer through this sudden destruction earthquake. This is logical because it is what is written. Always remember, Jesus is coming for those EXPECTING His coming and watching for Him. It is my guess that those not watching will not even hear the trumpet or the shout.

Take careful note: that great crowd seen around the throne - that crowd too large to number - they were seen by John in Rev. 7, not in Rev. 19 where you imagine the saints might be seen after being gathered.

Did you not notice that the church age martyrs - those seen at the 5th seal - were told they had to wait for the very last martyr before it would be time for judgment? What will cause the very last martyr to be the very last of the church age? Of course the END of the church age. And what will end the church age (and what comes next after the 5th seal?) ? It will end with the pretrib coming of Jesus to get His Bride.

Did you just overlook the fact that John shows the marriage and supper IN HEAVEN before Jesus even descends as shown in Rev. 19? Posttribbers have to rearrange things to fit their theory. The truth is, the saints are ALREADY THERE in heaven ready for the marriage and supper. This is the logical evidence I go by. It is scripture rightly divided.

Edited June 25, 2017 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

54 minutes ago, JohnD said:

According to Zechariah, when the Jews cry out to Jesus for salvation... he will return and set foot on the Mount of Olives (it will split in two). And the Jews will mourn for rejecting him and for their role in his crucifixion.

Exactly.

[iamlamad]

56 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

Revelation 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

The Carcase scripture in Matthew 28 is in reference to where the Marriage supper will be when Jesus and the Church  comes back, and the Holy Spirit destroys the Wicked. Of course we get rewarded after the Judgment Seats are set up and the FIRST RESURRECTION is fully over, why would Jesus Reward anyone before the First Resurrection was fully over? 

This is, of course, absurd. The Marriage supper will follow the marriage in heaven just as John shows us. It will be a delightful time when the Bride will enjoy the groom and the groom will enjoy the bride. It will be a meal with heaven's delicacies. It will be a meal for the Bride of Christ and Jesus Christ.

In case you don't know, many have testified of SEEING the preparations for this feast in heaven and came back to tell about it. They have seen tables with chairs, and names on each chair. Some saw angels preparing, while others were told that the preparations are complete, just awaiting the bride. I happen to believe these testimonies because they fit scripture.

I cannot even imagine someone thinking that dead carcasses are what is meant by the marriage supper. It is disgusting.  The dead carcasses will certainly be a meal for the birds.

[HAZARD]

6 hours ago, fixerupper said:

So God is going to remove Christians and kill people in the process?  How counter productive.  Most sensesible people would call that a terror attack.  
I don't think you understand the purpose of God in saving people. You're trying to say that the rapture is God's purpose for saving people and that's just way off the mark.  You people completely disregard good exegesis and have fallen for the most widely held, deceitful, fabricated false doctrine that has ever entered the Church.  Pre-trib contradictions and fabrications are endless.  

God is saving those IN CHRIST, His saints from the coming tribulation. Show me where Jesus in coming to the air, the clouds, to meet us in the air and take us to Heaven to protect us from the tribulation caused by the antichrist and his followers, show me where Jesus kills anyone?

 

RAPTURE, WHEN PURPOSE HINDERER = CHURCH.

It cannot be any clearer, proved by these many Scriptures that Jesus will return before the tribulation to rapture His saints to protect them from what lies ahead. After the tribulation He will return with them and the armies of Heaven to take control of the world, get rid of all rebellion, lock up Satan and usher in His 1,000 year reign. As Ripley once said, "Believe it or not."

The bible clearly states that the hinderer of lawlessness must be removed before the Antichrist is revealed,  2 Thess. 2:7-8, For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. V. 8, And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
There are only there things in the world today that hinder lawlessness. They are the church, the Holy Spirit and human governments. The hinderer that will be taken out of the world must refer to one of these three things. It could not refer to the Holy Spirit and governments for neither will be taken out of the world. It is clear that governments will not be taken for the Antichrist will reign over the ten kingdoms during the tribulation (Dan. 7:23-24; Rev. 17:8-17). The Holy Spirit will be here during the tribulation, so He could not be the hinderer taken (Acts. 2:16-21; John 14:16; Rev. 7:14; 12:17; 19:10; Zech. 12:10).

The Church will be taken out of the world,  (1 Thess. 4:16; Eph. 5:26-27; 1 Cor. 15:51-58), so this must be the hinderer referred to

If you cannot understand how the church could be referred to as "he," see Eph. 2:15; 4:13 where the church is called a "man."

The purpose of the rapture is to resurrect the just from the dead and take all the saints out of the world before the tribulation comes, in order that they may have fulfilled in them the purpose for which God has saved them. Jesus told the disciples that some would escape the terrible things that were to transpire on the Earth in the last days. He said, “Pray that you may be accounted worth to escape all these things of, Matt. 24, 25; Luke 21:1-19, 25-28, that shall come to pass, and stand before the Son of man,” Luke 21:34-36. These two passages in Luke 21:34-36 and John 14:1-3, are the only ones in the Gospels that are clear concerning the Rapture. Jesus did not reveal this, it was revealed by Paul many years later in 1 Cor. 15:51. The disciples did not have the slightest idea as to how they were to escape, unless they thought that Christ would deliver them from these things through His power. The how was not revealed or even mentioned before Paul explained how they were to escape.

The Rapture of the church should never be confused with the second coming or second advent of Christ, for He does not come to the earth at that time.

The Rapture is a distinct coming in itself, not to the Earth, but in the air where Christ meets the saints and then takes them back to Heaven to present them blameless before God the Father, John 14:1-3; 1 Thess. 3:13; 4:16, 17.

The Rapture takes place several years before the literal advent of Christ to the Earth, for they, the saints come back with Him at that time. The saints are in Heaven before God, and not in the air, from the time of the Rapture to their coming again with Christ to reign as kings and priests, Jude 14; Rev. 19:14; Zech. 14:5.

At the Rapture, the Lord comes from Heaven as far as the air, or Earthly Heavens and the saints will be caught up to meet Him in the air.

At the second coming, the saints are not raptured, and neither is Christ, but both will come back to the Earth together. The rapture takes place before the Tribulation, whereas the second Advent takes place after the Tribulation. The Rapture could occur at any time, whereas the second Advent cannot occur until after the tribulation.

[iamlamad]

19 minutes ago, inchrist said:

For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command (a) , with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet (b) call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. (c)

...................

(a) Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here.” And they went up to heaven in a cloud

(b) seventh angel sounded his trumpet

(c) The time has come for judging the dead,
    and for rewarding your servants the prophets

........................

 

Nice try, but there is NO SCRIPTURE that ties the seventh angel in Revelation with any rapture verse. Why then attempt to show it as if they were related?

Anyone can pull verses out of context and make it seem like they fit:

Matthew 27:5
And he [Judas Iscariot] ..., went and hanged himself.

Luke 10:37
... Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.

1 Thes 5
18 In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.

Each one is scripture, but each is pulled out of its context.

Can you find a coming at the 7th trumpet?

Can you find a gathering there?

What is there, at least in print in chapter 11, but not in any way near the time of the 7th trumpet, will be the two witnesses called up after they had been dead 3 1/2 days. In reality, the timing will be at the 7th vial that ends the week. We can know this by the scriptural evidence: they show up just 3 1/2 days before the midpoint. They testify for 1260 days, which will take them to just 3 1/2 days before the end of the week. they will lay dead for those 3 1/2 days and they be raised on the last day.

It is very obvious that God does not destroy those that destroy the earth at the 7th trumpet.  If so, then all that follows would not follow: there will be no people to pour out the vials of wrath on. Yet, we know there IS people still on earth. Therefore it SHOULD be obvious that these words by the 24 elders is really a prophecy of very near future events. We can read that some of these events takes place in Rev. 20, 3  1/2 years and more into the future.

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, Revelation Man said:

Now in Rev. 20:4 we see that the BEHEADED (Martyrs) are the ones being JUDGED, the ones that did not take the Mark of the Beast. They (the Martyrs of Tribulation) shall reign with Christ a 1000 years. They were not in Heaven (Rev. 19) marrying the Lamb, of course. So they need to be Judged now. The Second Resurrection or the Judgment of the Evil will be brought to pass in 1000 years.

On the other hand, what did John really see? He saw throne and they sat on them, of course judging. Who are these that are on thrones judging? It is the CHURCH that was raptured and that returned to earth with Christ in Rev. 19 plus at least some of the Old Testament saints. Remember, Jesus told the disciples they would judge. Then, AFTER john noticed the church seated and judging, he saw those who were beheaded, but risen and judging.  So we have TWO groups seen by John.  The truth is, all these were in heaven at the marriage. Not one group of the Old covenant saints, the New covenant saints or the martyrs of the Beast will miss the marriage.

 

1 hour ago, Revelation Man said:

Revelation 6:9 of course is the Martyred Saints under the Alter, they are murdered during the Tribulation, they want vengeance on those people ON EARTH !!

This is simply not the intent of the Author. John wrote of those martyrs before he even arrived at the 70th week in his narrative. The truth is, these are CHURCH AGE martyrs and they are told they must wait for the last church age martyr. Of course, that will be when the pretrib rapture ENDS the church age. And of course the very next event John writes of is the 6th seal, when His Wrath begins.

 

1 hour ago, Revelation Man said:

Notice the 5th Seal comes after the Four Horses or the First Four Seals where the Anti-Christ comes forth and kills 1.5 to 2 Billion people.

This is simply human reasoning and not at all the intent of the Author. John does not even get to the 70th week in His narrative until the 7th seal. The truth is, the first seal is the CHURCH sent out with the GOSPEL. By the way, that happened in 32 AD. The Red horse, the Black horse and the Paul horse with their riders are to represent the devil's atempts to stop teh advance of the gospel, but God limited them to 1/4 the surface of the earth. In no possible way is this to be interpreted as the number of people killed: it is about the theater of operation these three can operate in.

Please remember, any theory that attempts to rearrange John's God given chronology will be proven wrong.

Edited June 25, 2017 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, inchrist said:

Since it went over you....ill post it again

The time has come for judging the dead,

In case you missed it - the rapture is NOT "judging the dead." In fact, the rapture will come 3 1/2 years before the 7th trumpet. Do you remember which chapter records that group seen in heaven, too large to number? Ah, yes, it was in chapter 7 - a chapter before John begins the 70th week.