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Jesus' Return II


When Is Jesus Coming?

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2 hours ago, Sister said:

Now this got me thinking, where are the saints also who believe in the post trib?  Where do they fit in also?

I looked at Rev 20 again, seeking for some new insight.  I saw that Christ bounds the devil, then....judgement is given to the saints.  In that order.  It only mentions the beheaded, and those that refused the Mark of the Beast and who did not worship his image.  These are the last ones of all generations who made their robes white in the blood of the Lamb.  I remembered the parable of the hired workers in the field;

You are missing something in Rev. 20. Look again: John write: "I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them..." These are probably both the New Testament saints and the Old Testament saints. Both will have resurrection bodies at this point in time. Next, John saw the beheaded saints. But they too will have resurrection bodies.

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15 minutes ago, wingnut- said:

 When you ask about pre-trib saints, obviously to me not being pre-trib I assume you mean those who are deceased, and Paul tells us that they follow Him out of heaven.

Hi wingnut

The pre-trib believe that they will be picked up (whilst) alive before the tribulation to meet Christ in the air, and spared from all the persecutions that are coming on the saints.  So the resurrection of the dead, which MUST COME FIRST, will take place before they are picked up,  according to them.

Paul in Thessalonians is just comforting us, telling us that because Christ died and rose again, so will we, and even them that sleep in Jesus, God will bring with Christ also. So we are comforted that the dead don't miss out....they are included also.......and will be united with Christ.

We know the saints are picked up at some point to meet Christ in the air, ...all the dead in Christ and the living. They will have to come back down at some point, because their purpose is to rule with Christ in holy Jerusalem.  So what goes up, must come down.  I understand this side of it.  They will come in Christ's glory to establish the kingdom in Jerusalem on earth.

However, I don't see where it says specifically that the saints will follow Christ out of heaven?  Christ comes out of heaven with his angels, his army, ...and meets his saints in the air.....this will happen, but not necessarily in that exact order.

When Christ comes out heaven with his army (his angels), he is coming out to war, ready for battle.  We saints don't do the killing, but Christ and his angels do.  They are avenging on our behalf, for us.  What I am saying, is that I cannot find any scriptures that say the saints are there at this point in time with him when he is avenging.  All the scriptures say he is with his angels when he shows his glory.  His glory is that defeat of the nations, ...that blood bath he will make whilst taking over the kingdoms of the earth.

So where are the saints at this point of time? 

Now consider when Christ said that you have to first bind the strong man, before you can ruin his house?  In Rev 20, Satan is bound, ....then....judgement is given to the saints.

What I see is that Christ comes with his whole host of heaven, his armies, which are his angels, because vengeance is the Lord's....not ours....we are told this.....don't worry, the Lord will get em, not us.......and the first thing Christ does is come for war.  Does Christ bound the devil first, then destroy his house (Babylon), ...and then the resurrection and picking up of the saints occurs after this evil is bound and enemies gone?.....

It's different from how I always believed, because I am trying to back up with scripture that says plainly that the saints are with Christ when he's destroying Babylon.  But I only see that the angels are there with him.

 

  Matthew 16:27   For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

His glory will be seen when he fights the armies and punishes the nations, because he is showing his power now.  His glory is not shown before this, otherwise those armies would not fight him.  But where are the saints?  not mentioned.

 

 Mark 8:38   Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.

Why no mention of the saints?

 

  2 Thessalonians 1:7   And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

  2 Thessalonians 1:8   In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

  2 Thessalonians 1:9   Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

  2 Thessalonians 1:10   When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Just before the resurrection, you can be dead, and still have Christ glorified in you, because you died in truth, and the world will know it now. Now there are survivors, saints who have been be there until the end and will witness his coming and his judgements.  This will be a happy time for them, for they know it is their King who judges and comes for them.  The dead in Christ will rise and meet the Lord in the air.  They will witness this, then they will be picked up.  It is all done, finished. 

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3 hours ago, fixerupper said:

I don't think people realize how short of a time perriod there is between Revelation 11, the LAST TRUMP, and the end of the book.  It's months not years.

You don't understand or just don't believe John's chronology. The midpoint is marked by the 7th trumpet. Did you not notice that very soon after that those in Judea flee into the wilderness? Why? Because they just saw the abomination.   The 7th trumpet will sound in heaven marking the exact time the man of sin enters the temple and declares He is God.

So from the sounding of the 7th trumpet to the pouring out of the 7th vial will be 1260 days. It will also be 42 months. It will also be 3 1/2 years.

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6 hours ago, HAZARD said:

The great whore is not Jerusalem, never was, never will be. And, the Antichrist will only have power and rule over the revised old Roman Empire. The rest of the world may be affected in some ways but the antichrist will not rule America, Australia or any country outside the Old Roman Empire territory.

You are only showing us you don't understand John's book. It IS Jerusalem. Did you not read the last verse of chapter 16? Did you not notice that in another place in the Book, John tells us the "great city" is where Jesus was crucified. I am sure you have read these, but it seems you just don't believe it.

Again, you are not reading. "And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations."

I read ALL kindreds, tongues and nations. I read that the whole world wondered after the Beast.  Sorry, but you are still miles off.

Do you not understand that the Beast and False prophet will spend most of the last 42 months living in Jerusalem and deceiving THE ENTIRE WORLD from that city? No false religion has ever come close. Not all false religions up to that time have come close.

You see, there are untold millions of people sitting on a fence, so to speak, and have not make up their mind who they will serve. God is going to force all people to choose, and He will use the Beast to do it.

Edited by iamlamad
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10 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Let's get your thoughts in line with the Word:

Rev. 9:13 And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God,

14 Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.

15 And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.

16 And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them.

17 And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone: and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone.

18 By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths.

 

First, WHEN will this happen? The trumpets will sound during the first half of the 70th week or "trib" as some call it. Since this is the 6th trumpet, it will come LATE in the first half of the week: perhaps weeks or months before the 7th trumpet that will mark the exact midpoint.

Next, WHO are these?  I am convinced they are supernatural - in other words a heavenly army. Earth has no flying horses; heaven does.  I have heard all my life that this must be a Chinese army because it is so big. No, I think not. I believe this is a heavenly army come to take out 1/3 of earth's population. We could guess it would only be wicked, but that would only be a guess, for God does not tell us.

What is it really that is "cut short?" If you read Mat. 24 carefully Jesus speaks of "those days" of "great tribulation." What is cut short are the number of days of great tribulation, or the number of days the image and mark will be being enforced by death.  It is my belief that God shortens those days by pouring out the vials of wrath. Read through them while imagining you are one of the Beast's army. It is my guess that after a few vials they will be rendered helpless.

The boy Nathan from Israel that got to go to heaven and see their future play out, said that 70 nations come against Israel for the battle of Armageddon. He also said that their IDF was still active at that time, at the end of the 70th week.

IT seems that Jerusalem is taken and people carried away captive. At lease some of the city is burned before Jesus comes. It will be DARK. His coming will be a suddenly: like lightning lighting up a dark sky. Then it will be too late for their armies.  My guess is they will be destroyed almost instantly. However, we know Jesus will go to Bozrah also. Probably to rescue those who had fled at the abomination. We know He will finally touch down on the mount of Olives.

the armies which were in heaven   Notice it is "armies" plural that comes with Christ. My guess is, angels make up one army and the saints make up another army. We don't know for sure because God chose not to tell us. you might as well know, there are some things we may not know until that time.

Pretrib thought, and I am included, shows the Bride of Christ taken to heaven (John 14 and 1 thes. 4) before the week begins. We are THERE in heaven for the marriage shown in Rev. 19. Yet, we are to judge cities, so we MUST get back down to earth. It seems the most logical time is that we return with Him.

Thanks for that.

Yes, you are right, there are some things we just don't know.  I will keep trying to put the pieces together in the meantime, because I don't want to preach something that is not backed up solidly.  I may have to say, "it is of my opinion, or guess" that the saints will be in the air, when Christ judges the nations, because I can't give solid proof right now.

Still searching brother...I want some scriptures that maybe I've missed.

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Just now, Sister said:

Thanks for that.

Yes, you are right, there are some things we just don't know.  I will keep trying to put the pieces together in the meantime, because I don't want to preach something that is not backed up solidly.  I may have to say, "it is of my opinion, or guess" that the saints will be in the air, when Christ judges the nations, because I can't give solid proof right now.

Still searching brother...I want some scriptures that maybe I've missed.

Don't overlook John 14. Jesus went to HEAVEN to build us homes. Make not mistake here: He WILL take us to those homes He has prepared. the posttribbers would have us believe He went to build us homes and then forgot to takes us to them.  Also don't overlook that great crowd, too large to number, in Rev. 7. Make no mistake, that IS the raptured church seen in heaven before the 70th week begins.  The Bride of Christ is already there IN HEAVEN in the first verses of REv. 19, and we will be there for the marriage.

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5 hours ago, Thallasa said:

How true  , and what a problem for the truth !! 

Truth is very hard to find on these forums.

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17 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

You are only showing us you don't understand John's book. It IS Jerusalem. Did you not read the last verse of chapter 16? Did you not notice that in another place in the Book, John tells us the "great city" is where Jesus was crucified. I am sure you have read these, but it seems you just don't believe it.

Again, you are not reading. "And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations."

I read ALL kindreds, tongues and nations. I read that the whole world wondered after the Beast.  Sorry, but you are still miles off.

Do you not understand that the Beast and False prophet will spend most of the last 42 months living in Jerusalem and deceiving THE ENTIRE WORLD from that city? No false religion has ever come close. Not all false religions up to that time have come close.

You see, there are untold millions of people sitting on a fence, so to speak, and have not make up their mind who they will serve. God is going to force all people to choose, and He will use the Beast to do it.

 God forces no one to believe. We are free to choose who we will follow. The Antichrist is the one who tries to force people to believe. Not God.

 

The word "all," in Rev. 13 is simply part of a figure of speech called a "synecdoche" in which a part is used for a whole and a whole for a part. It is frequently used in Scripture as in these examples.

"I, even I do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy ALL flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and everything that is in the earth shall die" Gen. 6 : 17.

If we took this literally as men do in Rev. 13, we would have Noah and his family and all the animals in the ark dead, for they were also under heaven and in the earth and yet did not die.

Another example of many; "And the utterly destroyed ALL that was in the city, both men and women," referring to the people in Jericho when the wall fell, but the "all" here must be understood in a limited sense, for Rahab and her people were spared (Josh 6:21-25).

"David and "ALL" the house of Israel played before the Lord" and "brought up the ark" 2 Sam. 6:5, 15, yet not all Israel did this for many did not know how to play instruments and many were too young and still many were not even gathered at that one place.

It is spoken of Nebuchadnezzar that God made him ruler over ALL men, but ancient Babylon ruled only over part of the Earth (Dan. 2:37, 38; 4:1, 11, 12, 20). He never reigned over Greece, Rome, and many other lands at that time. In Dan. 2:39 Greece is spoken of as ruling "over ALL the Earth" but Greece never reigned over Italy, Spain, and many other countries at that time. In Dan. 7:23, Rome is spoken as ruling over the"WHOLE EARTH," but we all know that did not include many tribes and nations on the Earth, so "all" in these passages simply means all the people in part of the earth ruled by these kingdoms.

In Matt. 3:5, 6 we read, "Then went out to him Jerusalem, and ALL Judea, and ALL the region round the Jordan, and were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins," but we know that the Pharisees, the Sadducees, and many in all these parts were not baptized of John. Many women, children, the sick, and others of all classes never even saw John, much less were they baptized by him in Jordan It simply means a great many from these parts were baptized by John.

There are many other examples such as these few which I can give from the bible.

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8 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Truth is very hard to find on these forums.

I find the truth in the Word of God, the Bible.

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8 hours ago, HAZARD said:

 Nimrod's father was Cush.

1 The generations of Noah.
2 Japheth.
6 Ham.
8 Nimrod becomes the first monarch; the descendants of Canaan.

Genesis 10:2-10, Now these are the generations of the sons of Noah, Shem, Ham, and Japheth: and unto them were sons born after the flood.
    2, The sons of Japheth; Gomer, and Magog, and Madai, and Javan, and Tubal, and Meshech, and Tiras.
    3, And the sons of Gomer; Ashkenaz, and Riphath, and Togarmah.
    4, And the sons of Javan; Elishah, and Tarshish, Kittim, and Dodanim.1
    5, By these were the isles of the Gentiles divided in their lands; every one after his tongue, after their families, in their nations.
    6, And the sons of Ham; Cush, and Mizraim, and Phut, and Canaan.
    7, And the sons of Cush; Seba, and Havilah, and Sabtah, and Raamah, and Sabtecha: and the sons of Raamah; Sheba, and Dedan.
    8, And Cush begat Nimrod: he began to be a mighty one in the earth. 
    9, He was a mighty hunter before the LORD: wherefore it is said, Even as Nimrod the mighty hunter before the LORD.
    10, And the beginning of his kingdom was Babel, and Erech, and Accad, and Calneh, in the land of Shinar.

 

According to many Bible scholars and historians the great whore is identified as a great religious system, the RCC, which they claim will fulfil Rev. 17 and dominate the Antichrist for a short time during his rise over the ten kings and until the middle of the Week. Then the beast and the ten kings will destroy her Rev. 17:9-17. Even Catholic divines admit Rev. 17 is a description of their church. See the writing s of Cardinal Ballimor and the French Prelate, Boussuet. She has a name on her forhead, "Mystery Babylon The Great."

Rev. 17:5, And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS2 AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

Rev. 17:9-17, And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.
    10, And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
    11, And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.
    12, And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.
    13, These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.
    14, ¶ These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.
    15, And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.
    16, And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.
    17, For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

Queen Semiramis, under the name of Astarte, was worshipped not only as an incarnation of the Spirit of God, but as the mother of mankind. This Babylonian queen was not merely in character coincident with the Aphrodite of Greece and the Venus of Rome, but was, in point of fact, the historical original of that goddess that by the ancient world was regarded as the very embodiment of everything attractive in female form, and the perfection of female beauty; for Sanchuniathon assures us that Aphrodite or Venus was identical with Astarte, and Astarte being interpreted, is none other than "The woman that made towers or encompassing walls"--i.e., Semiramis. The Roman Venus, as is well known, was the Cyprian Venus, and the Venus of Cyprus is historically proved to have been derived from Babylon.

Jer. 7:18, The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven,  and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger.


Jer. 44:17 But we will certainly do whatsoever thing goeth forth out of our own mouth, to burn incense unto the queen of heaven,  and to pour out drink offerings unto her, as we have done, we, and our fathers, our kings, and our princes, in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem: for then had we plenty of victuals, and were well, and saw no evil.


Jer. 44:18, But since we left off to burn incense to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, we have wanted all things, and have been consumed by the sword and by the famine.


Jer. 44:19, And when we burned incense to the queen of heaven, and poured out drink offerings unto her, did we make her cakes to worship her, and pour out drink offerings unto her, without our men ?


Jer. 44:25, Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel, saying; Ye and your wives have both spoken with your mouths, and fulfilled with your hand, saying, We will surely perform our vows that we have vowed, to burn incense to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her: ye will surely accomplish your vows, and surely perform your vows.

Ah, very good. :) Thank you so much for taking the time to deliver that lengthy explanation. It will bless many here in the teaching it affords.:emot-heartbeat: God bless brother. :emot-hug:

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