Jesus' Return II

[Anonymous Aristotle]

31 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Sorry, my mistake.

No problem at all. Big threads can be confusing. I know I have found that to be the case a time or two. God bless. 

[iamlamad]

5 minutes ago, inchrist said:

Whre did I say I dont believe in the marriage and supper, where is it and when do you think I place the marriage and supper?

I think most people believe in the marriage, but not all believe it will be right when John mentions it, BEFORE Jesus descends, and WHERE John shows it to be: in heaven. You see, if the marriage takes place in heaven, before Christ descends, then posttribbers have a serious problem getting to the marriage.

If you believe what John shows us, that the marriage will be in heaven before Christ returns to earth then I am sorry for my comment and will say I was mistaken. Perhaps I was thinking of Wingnut.

[Anonymous Aristotle]

56 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Easy: just read through any thread! You will find a dozen opposing views.

It is not the scriptures themselves: God's inspired Word is always truth. The problem is how people read it.

Personal interpretations are common place for scripture reading is it not? The Bible is God's love letter to those who are his sons and daughters. 

Wrongheadedness however, when someone rewrites scripture so as to say what they need it to say in order to oppose someone who is in Christ, that I believe is a different matter. It is the Net after all. We only know what people tell us of their faith. God knows the truth of their heart because His Holy and Sacred Spirit calls whom he knew before creation to his grace.  

All else is something left to us to navigate through. And I believe our actual relationship with God and Christ's truth allows us to know the scriptures and to know when they are being corrupted by wrongheaded intentions. And those are whom we should hold in prayer. That they are that lost. God have mercy.

 

 

52 minutes ago, Swords99 said:

Amen. So true. I get a kick out of atheists, agnostics  and philosophers who tell Christians what the Bible actually says.

I didn't think those were permitted to post in other than a restricted area of this community. Am I in error about that? 

Are you speaking also in a general sense about those not with WCF?

[Swords99]

46 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

I think the Catholic church.

There was no Roman Catholic church in Peter's day.

[Swords99]

4 minutes ago, Anonymous Aristotle said:

Personal interpretations are common place for scripture reading is it not? The Bible is God's love letter to those who are his sons and daughters. 

Wrongheadedness however, when someone rewrites scripture so as to say what they need it to say in order to oppose someone who is in Christ, that I believe is a different matter. It is the Net after all. We only know what people tell us of their faith. God knows the truth of their heart because His Holy and Sacred Spirit calls whom he knew before creation to his grace.  

All else is something left to us to navigate through. And I believe our actual relationship with God and Christ's truth allows us to know the scriptures and to know when they are being corrupted by wrongheaded intentions. And those are whom we should hold in prayer. That they are that lost. God have mercy.

 

 

I didn't think those were permitted to post in other than a restricted area of this community. Am I in error about that? 

Are you speaking also in a general sense about those not with WCF?

I was speaking generally.

[fixerupper]

8 hours ago, iamlamad said:

You don't understand or just don't believe John's chronology. The midpoint is marked by the 7th trumpet. Did you not notice that very soon after that those in Judea flee into the wilderness? Why? Because they just saw the abomination.   The 7th trumpet will sound in heaven marking the exact time the man of sin enters the temple and declares He is God.

So from the sounding of the 7th trumpet to the pouring out of the 7th vial will be 1260 days. It will also be 42 months. It will also be 3 1/2 years.

Lamad,

I respect your position on these things even though I often disagree.  I don't accept much of today's eschatology.  I've pretty much acqired my own.  On this issue, it wouldn't surprise me if you are correct.  Nothing I believe in is written in stone, and I do appreciate the challenge (time period between chapter 11-19).

By no means do I claim to have this all figured out and willing to change my mind when the evidence is there to do.  I just don't accept Daniel's 70th week but do accept... 

The beast of Revelation 13 was given power unto him to continue forty and two months.  So you may be right.  That would/could mean that the seventh trumpet last over 3 1/2 years, and that's where I have issues.  

And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

At the end of the age, seven trumpets will sound by seven angels, the first six come between chapters 8-9.  The seventh final trumpet sounds in Revelation 11 and pretty much goes right through the rest of the book.  In Revelation 17, the king who's identified as "one IS" is said to continue "a short space," and the kings that "received no kingdom as yet receive power "ONE HOUR" with the beast.   It sounds like this beast is done with just after it emerges.

At the sounding of the last trump in Revelation 11 it says,

“Then the seventh angel blew his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he shall reign forever and ever!  

This is where God's wrath actually begins as well as the time of reward for His servants, and His enemies.

Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Does this mean there's still 3 1/2 years left?  Even though I accept the chronological view of Revelation, I do think kingdoms don't rise overnight.  An Empire takes time to materialize.  It's possible that the formulation of this kingdom and the kingdom itself last 42 months, OR that the formulation of it began prior to, maybe a few years. before the 42 months.  Another thing.  I DON'T THINK the beast of Rev. 13 and 17 are the same.  If they are, I can only conclude the one in Rev. 13 develops into the one in Rev. 17.  As of Now, I think they are two different Islamic Caliphates described by Daniel as the King of the North, possibly involvimg Turkey or Iran, Iraq, etc., (Ez. 38-39?), and the King of the South situated in Northern Africa and around the Arabian Peninsula.  (Psalm 83?) in Daniel 11.

What is this daily sacrifice?  I THINK I know???  This passage is far more important than Daniel 9:26-27.

 Daniel 12:8-13.  And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?   And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.  Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.  And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.  Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.  But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.  

What is the difference between the three and one-half years or 1,260 days mentioned in Revelation 11:3.  

And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

The 1,260 days in Reveltion 12:6

And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

And the 1,290 AND 1,335 days mentioned here in Daniel 12??

If you have any ideas on this, let me know what you think, and I'll let you know what I think.

[When Is Jesus Coming?]

I'm pleased to see so much discussion here and am encouraged by it, after all the Great and Terrible Day of the Lord will be the most momentous day in history (save perhaps the great white throne judgement?).

With Jesus' return looking more and more imminent this should be more widely discussed. According this guy the tribulation will start in just five years:  

https://guidetothebible.files.wordpress.com/2015/10/guidechronologylatest1.pdf

https://guidetothebible.files.wordpress.com/2015/10/guide_graphical_timeline_2015_10_25pm_nofooter.pdf

[wingnut-]

13 hours ago, Sister said:

Hi wingnut

The pre-trib believe that they will be picked up (whilst) alive before the tribulation to meet Christ in the air, and spared from all the persecutions that are coming on the saints.  So the resurrection of the dead, which MUST COME FIRST, will take place before they are picked up,  according to them.

 

Yes I know, they want to change the order and have the living resurrected before all of the dead are.  While they will claim this is not what they are doing, they will make up phrases like tribulation saints who are clearly killed after their mystery event, which of course means that they are doing exactly that, despite the order of resurrection given by both Paul and John.  This is the very reason their theory is not possible and precisely why I reject their theory.

 

13 hours ago, Sister said:

Paul in Thessalonians is just comforting us, telling us that because Christ died and rose again, so will we, and even them that sleep in Jesus, God will bring with Christ also. So we are comforted that the dead don't miss out....they are included also.......and will be united with Christ.

 

Agreed, but you said it yourself right here, God brings those who sleep with Him when He comes.  This means that the saints are with Him when He comes for battle.

 

13 hours ago, Sister said:

However, I don't see where it says specifically that the saints will follow Christ out of heaven?  Christ comes out of heaven with his angels, his army, ...and meets his saints in the air.....this will happen, but not necessarily in that exact order.

 

Well, it says it in the passage we discussed.  Break it down like this.

 

I Thessalonians 4:14 For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep.

 

He brings those who are asleep with Him, still not in their glorified bodies.

 

I Thessalonians 4:15 For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.

 

He tells us that those alive will be raised after the dead bodies of those who are asleep are raised.

 

I Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

 

Here it clarifies He is descending from heaven when He gives the command, the archangel is with Him along with the trumpet, and the dead rise first.

 

I Thessalonians 4:17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

 

Then the living meet them in the air.  From I Corinthians 15 we know that this is where we are all changed into our glorified bodies, the first resurrection John writes about in Revelation 20.

 

13 hours ago, Sister said:

When Christ comes out heaven with his army (his angels), he is coming out to war, ready for battle.  We saints don't do the killing, but Christ and his angels do.

 

I'm not sure either way, whether anyone does any killing other than Jesus Himself.  The Old Testament prophets write about Him speaking the enemy dead, or killing them by simply moving His hand.  I think the one thing about this entire event is that it will be fast, a slaughter.

 

14 hours ago, Sister said:

What I am saying, is that I cannot find any scriptures that say the saints are there at this point in time with him when he is avenging.

 

Well, the verse from Zechariah 14 does say that.  Look at it from the KJV.

 

Zechariah 14:5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

 

Saints and holy ones are the exact same translation, they are interchangeable words just like elect and chosen.  Almost every translation uses the word saints in Zechariah 14.  Being with Him does not mean we are doing any of the killing, His robe is the only one dipped in blood.

 

14 hours ago, Sister said:

What I see is that Christ comes with his whole host of heaven, his armies, which are his angels, because vengeance is the Lord's

 

Once we are in our glorified bodies we are just like the angels, there is no more telling us apart once we are in our glorified bodies.

God bless

[Anonymous Aristotle]

4 hours ago, Swords99 said:

I was speaking generally.

Thank you for clarifying. God bless. 

[iamlamad]

4 hours ago, fixerupper said:

Lamad,

I respect your position on these things even though I often disagree.  I don't accept much of today's eschatology.  I've pretty much acqired my own.  On this issue, it wouldn't surprise me if you are correct.  Nothing I believe in is written in stone, and I do appreciate the challenge (time period between chapter 11-19).

By no means do I claim to have this all figured out and willing to change my mind when the evidence is there to do.  I just don't accept Daniel's 70th week but do accept... 

The beast of Revelation 13 was given power unto him to continue forty and two months.  So you may be right.  That would/could mean that the seventh trumpet last over 3 1/2 years, and that's where I have issues.  

And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

At the end of the age, seven trumpets will sound by seven angels, the first six come between chapters 8-9.  The seventh final trumpet sounds in Revelation 11 and pretty much goes right through the rest of the book.  In Revelation 17, the king who's identified as "one IS" is said to continue "a short space," and the kings that "received no kingdom as yet receive power "ONE HOUR" with the beast.   It sounds like this beast is done with just after it emerges.

At the sounding of the last trump in Revelation 11 it says,

“Then the seventh angel blew his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he shall reign forever and ever!  

This is where God's wrath actually begins as well as the time of reward for His servants, and His enemies.

Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Does this mean there's still 3 1/2 years left?  Even though I accept the chronological view of Revelation, I do think kingdoms don't rise overnight.  An Empire takes time to materialize.  It's possible that the formulation of this kingdom and the kingdom itself last 42 months, OR that the formulation of it began prior to, maybe a few years. before the 42 months.  Another thing.  I DON'T THINK the beast of Rev. 13 and 17 are the same.  If they are, I can only conclude the one in Rev. 13 develops into the one in Rev. 17.  As of Now, I think they are two different Islamic Caliphates described by Daniel as the King of the North, possibly involvimg Turkey or Iran, Iraq, etc., (Ez. 38-39?), and the King of the South situated in Northern Africa and around the Arabian Peninsula.  (Psalm 83?) in Daniel 11.

What is this daily sacrifice?  I THINK I know???  This passage is far more important than Daniel 9:26-27.

 Daniel 12:8-13.  And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?   And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.  Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.  And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.  Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.  But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.  

What is the difference between the three and one-half years or 1,260 days mentioned in Revelation 11:3.  

And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

The 1,260 days in Reveltion 12:6

And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

And the 1,290 AND 1,335 days mentioned here in Daniel 12??

If you have any ideas on this, let me know what you think, and I'll let you know what I think.

Here is what I heard Jesus say to me: (yes, I heard His voice and His words):  "Every time I mentioned and event that would begin at the midpoint of the week and go to the end of the week I always included the 3 1/2 year period of time. When you find the mentions of the 3 1/2 years you will be very close to the exact midpoint." He had previously told me that I could find the exact midpoint "clearly marked." I asked Him how I would find that and this was His answer.

So the truth is, every mention of the 3 1/2 years, whether in days, months or years (times) is about an event that will begin at the midpoint and go to the end. However, all five of these mentions do not begin on the same day, and probably will not all end on the same day.

We have then, 5 parallel paths to the end of the week, plus John's own narrative, making 6 paths to the end.  Therefore from Rev. 11:1 on to Rev. 16, there are 5 countdowns running concurrently. In other words, while the 42 months of authority is counting, the woman (those in Judea who fled into the wilderness) is being protected, those fleeing will be fleeing as well as being protected, the two witnesses will be testifying and the city will be being trampled: all at the same time.

What makes this even trickier, John uses parentheses with no marks: we discover these by study. For example, John introduces us to the two witnesses in real time, but from 11:4 to 11:13 he takes us down the last half of week for the two witnesses only, written as a parenthesis with no bearing on chronology.  A beginning reader would think, for example, that the two witnesses die before the 7th trumpet. But that is not at all the intent of the Author: they SHOW UP and begin to testify just 3 1/2 days before the midpoint, then testify for 1260 days, which will take them to just 3 1/2 days before the 7th vial that ends the week. They lay dead for those 3 days, then rise up at the 7th vial - probably when all the Old Testament saints rise. Therefore, verses 11:4 through 11:13 are written as a parenthesis.

It is my guess that most of chapter 13 is written as a parenthesis also. But the beast rising up will be in real-time.

For chronology, the man of sin will arrive in Jerusalem with Gentile (perhaps Muslim?) armies. The city will then be trampled for the next 42 months. The two witnesses then show up, probably because the man of sin showed up then.

Three and a half days later, the man of sin enters the temple and declares he is God. This is the abomination. The daily sacrifices cease. The temple will have to be cleansed.  The 7th trumpet sounds in heaven the moment he declares he is God. Two or three seconds later, those in Judea begin to flee as 12:6 shows us. They will flee and be protected for 1260 days. This count, in my opinion, will begin 3 1/2 days after the 1260 days of testifying.

Chapters 11-13 are midpoint chapters. Chapter 14 is also very close to midpoint, for in it is the warning for people to refuse the mark. The days of great tribulation begin in chapter 15. When the murdering reaches a peak, God begins pouring out the vials to shorten those days of GT. Then the 7th vial ends the 70th week. Jesus remains in heaven. Finally the sun, moon and stars fail to light, and all is darkness, day after day. The marriage and supper take place in heaven. Then suddenly the darkness is lit up as if a lightning bolt struck: it will be Jesus Christ piercing the darkness and returning to earth. If I had to guess, I would guess he comes on the 1290th day. It is only a guess because John does not tell us. Some people think then know the day: they are mistaken.

Some time - as He descends or soon after, the parable of the tares will take place. Then the judgment of the nations. Then the official beginning of the Millennial Reign. Perhaps the extra 45 days will be that beginning. Perhaps it will be the cleansing of the temple. Perhaps it will anointing Him King of Kings.  I don't know what the 1335 will represent. It will be a joyous occasion though!

"At the sounding of the last trump in Revelation 11 "  Please don't all this "the last trump." It is in NO WAY related to Paul's "last trump." It is the last of this series but John calls it the 7th trumpet.  Do you have any guesses as to why at this time the kingdoms of earth are transferred?

"That would/could mean that the seventh trumpet last over 3 1/2 years, and that's where I have issues. " No, it only takes a minute or less to sound a trumpet! It will be sounded and then end. But it will TRIGGER other events, such as the Kingdoms of the world going to Jesus Christ, and such as Michael taking Satan down. Then later the 7 vials. They will not be poured out until all 7 trumpets have sounded.

"is said to continue "a short space," and the kings that "received no kingdom as yet receive power "ONE HOUR" with the beast."  This is not as difficult as you might imagine. In God's perspective, the 42 months is indeed a very short space of time. Usually Kings rule until they die. The ten kings that throw in with him for "one hour" I believe represents the 70 nations that come for the battle of Armageddon. (I get the 70 from the Jewish boy Nathan that died and spend 15 minutes or so in heaven.) The actual battle will probably be much less than an hour.

"This is where God's wrath actually begins"  I don't agree. His wrath begins at the 6th seal where the Day of His wrath begins. But make no mistake, His wrath is probably building as people refuse to repent.

"because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned."  What do you make of this? In my opinion, the moment power and authority was given to Him after His resurrection, He gave it to the church and sent them out. At this point in time, the midpoint of the week, He finally takes it back.

And the nations were angry,    They will have been angry, probably since God began the Day of His wrath at the 6th seal.

and thy wrath is come,  This, like most of the verbs John uses, is a Greek Aorist verb which shows no timing at all! it is not past tense, not present tense, and not future tense: it is NO tense. So this is not proof that His wrath just began at this instant. It is better to believe John that His wrath began with the Day of His wrath or the Day of the Lord at the 6th seal. After all, they all saw the SIGNS of the start of the Day. At best we could say that at this time God has wrath. God is angry.

and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, We see that this time of judging really comes in Rev. 20. No one dies at the 7th trumpet, and no one raises from the dead at the 7th trumpet. That is why I think these things are given as a prophecy of very near future events. You see, they can NOW come to pass because the Kingdoms belong to Jesus Christ now. Along with the Kingdoms, at this time the entire human race belongs to Jesus Christ. So the judging of those who were not ever born again can take place.

and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great;  We also see that rewards are handed out in Rev. 20, not here. Again, this is why I believe this is prophecy.

and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. No one is destroyed at the 7th trumpet. But they very soon will be!

Does this mean there's still 3 1/2 years left?  Even though I accept the chronological view of Revelation, I do think kingdoms don't rise overnight.  An Empire takes time to materialize. If you remember in Daniel, the little horn takes out three nations out of ten, leaving seven, and he becomes the 8th king. It is my guess this is done during the first 3 1/2 years. He is building his kingdom. But people won't recognize him as Revelation's "Beast" until he enters the temple and declares he is God.  From the sounding of the 7th trumpet, there will be 3 1/2 years left of the week. But remember, Jesus does not return at the 7th vial that ends the week.  It is my guess He comes 30 days later.

Another thing.  I DON'T THINK the beast of Rev. 13 and 17 are the same.  They are the same  entity: a King with a Kingdom. But Rev. 13 is about the King, the man of sin turned Beast. Rev. 17 is more about his Kingdom.  The 42 months are the time authority is given to the Beast AS THE BEAST. He certainly was alive before this. His kingdom is probably already formed at this time.

What is this daily sacrifice? Once the temple is set up the Jews will once again begin daily sacrifices, in the morning and in the evening. But at the midpoint, they will cease because the temple will have to be cleansed.

And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.  This is a very tricky verse. Notice there is NOT a "from" and "to" in this sentence. So where does this time begin? I think it begins in 12:1 with the days of Great tribulation. In Revelation it would begin at the midpoint or the 7th trumpet or the moment the man of sin says he is God (all the same moment in time). This is when this count BEGINS. What is the ending? That is the question Daniel is asking: WHEN will these terrible days end? Remember, the count begins when the man of sin enters the temple and pollutes it: He is NOT the High Priest, and he will be a Gentile. The daily sacrifice will have to stop that moment. So from that exact midpoint, count 1260 days and the week ends with the 7th vial. Count 30 more days, and my guess is, THAT is the day the Beast and false prophet are cast into hell. It will be the day of Christ's return. The 1260 days (time, times and half of time) will be the same times as given in Revelation for the last half of the week. The extra 30 days (1290) will be after the 7th vial has ended the week. The marriage will be going on in heaven.