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Jesus' Return II


When Is Jesus Coming?

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2 hours ago, wingnut- said:

Yes I know, they want to change the order and have the living resurrected before all of the dead are.  While they will claim this is not what they are doing, they will make up phrases like tribulation saints who are clearly killed after their mystery event, which of course means that they are doing exactly that, despite the order of resurrection given by both Paul and John.  This is the very reason their theory is not possible and precisely why I reject their theory.

We have been over this before. What is it about "tribulation saints" you cannot believe? There are millions of people today kind of sitting on the fence, saying "I'll get saved tomorrow." When the rapture comes, and they see they have missed it, they will flock to Jesus. There will certainly be millions of tribulation saints. In fact, we could ask, why were the 144,000 not raptured if the rapture were pretrib? My guess is, it was the rapture event that convinced them Jesus is their Messiah.

Paul sets the order, and pretrib certainly does not change it: the DEAD in Christ rise first.  Why should this be difficult? No one changes it. However, untold millions will NOT be "in Christ" and dead and will stay in their graves. Millions of alive people will not be "In Christ" and they will be left behind. So no one is changing any kind of biblical order.   But the moment after this rapture event, many will die in Paul's "sudden destruction" which I believe is an earthquake caused by the dead in Christ rising.

Perhaps you believe there cannot be any resurrections before Rev. 20. Is that it?   What John teaches us, if we understand him, is that at the end of the 70th week, all those beheaded will rise along with the Old Testament saints and along with the two witnesses.

3 hours ago, wingnut- said:

Agreed, but you said it yourself right here, God brings those who sleep with Him when He comes.  This means that the saints are with Him when He comes for battle.

 

3 hours ago, wingnut- said:

Then the living meet them in the air.  From I Corinthians 15 we know that this is where we are all changed into our glorified bodies, the first resurrection John writes about in Revelation 20.

3 hours ago, wingnut- said:

He brings those who are asleep with Him, still not in their glorified bodies.

Not, it does not mean that at all: since Stephen was martyred, anyone who believed in Christ and died went to heaven - as Paul wrote, to be absent from the body (dead) would be to be present with the Lord. It is the SPIRITS of those dead in Christ that returns to earth (sorry, the AIR above the earth) for the pretrib rapture. they come to get their bodies back. So I agree with your second statement.

I don't think this is at all like:

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. Sorry, but I don't think spirits can make up a fighting army. Pretrib says these are the previously raptured saints WITH their resurrection bodies, coming with Him to fight. However willing they will be to fight, I doubt if we get a chance: it will be over almost when it begins.

3 hours ago, wingnut- said:

Then the living meet them in the air.  From I Corinthians 15 we know that this is where we are all changed into our glorified bodies, the first resurrection John writes about in Revelation 20.

It seems you think that this "first Resurrection" has a start and finish at the time in John's narrative of chapter 20 - that there can be no resurrections happen in chapters 19, 18, 17, 16, ...9, 8, 7, 6 etc. The truth is, John does not give us a beginning or an ending.  John saw thrones and people seated and judging - showing us the church and at least some of the Old Testament saints have already been resurrected and with their resurrection bodies intact. So all John has done is show us that all the righteous up to this point in time were included in this chiefest of resurrections.

Is this what you think about the "first" or chief resurrection?

 

 

 

 

 

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7 hours ago, inchrist said:

The marriage is in the city

Which city and where is that city?

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7 hours ago, inchrist said:

These are those who came out of the tribulation, the great one.”

The whole point of the great tribulation is to present the whole sum of the trials of the saints, and these saints represent a specific group coming from a particular time - the great tribulation.

John did not see them appear all at once but a continual occurrence.

Further you are in a contradiction of your own making....you place the rapture before the Great tribulation, John saw them coming out of the Great Tribulation.

I take John's God given Chronology as given. When John wrote that these came out of "great tribulation" he has not yet started the 70th week. He surely has not arrived at chapter 15 when the beheaded saints from "those days" of "great tribulation" Jesus spoke of will begin. Therefore, TIMING ALONE will not allow these to have come from a point 3 1/2 years into the future. And that is not the meaning.

Rev. 2:20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.

21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.

22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.

Do you really think Jesus intent here was to keep this woman Jezebel alive for 2000 years so she would participate in the days of Great Tribulation from Matthew 24? Your problem is, when you see "great tribulation" your ONLY thought is what Jesus said in Matthew 24, "those days" of "Great tribulation" that will come after the Beast is revealed.  But John has already shown us that God can have OTHER days of GT and NOT MEAN those days created by the Beast. The truth is, God can CREATED days of GT anything He wants.

As I have written before, there is simply NO WAY the Beast will kill more people than can be counted. But for the rapture, and those dead in Christ, God has been adding them up since Stephen was martyred. They will indeed be a huge group of people, as John said, too large to number.

Therefore, when I take all these things into consideration, I am convinced these are the just raptured church. They are not dead. They are not martyrs. They are resurrected saints.

John DID begin to see the tribulation saints come, as shown in Rev. 15. That was the beginning.

No, sorry, these did not come out of "those days" of "great tribulation" Jesus spoke of. John has not even started the 70th week. All John is telling us is that at the time of the pretrib rapture, God will consider the tribulation around the world as great. People will be being martyred for their stand on Jesus Christ. It is that was NOW. How could "tribulation" be any greater for them? They could not be martyred twice!

Always remember, just the two words, "great tribulation" was NOT ENOUGH for Jesus to describe those days. He had to add more words. Therefore, when we see "great tribulation" written in the word of God, it does not have to refer to the days Jesus spoke of. Therefore, NO contradictions.

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7 hours ago, inchrist said:

You have no scriptual bases to refute that John is explaining further details of what John saw in Chapter 6 

And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until 
their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be 
fulfilled. (Revelation 6:10-11)

You have no scriptural basis to tie the two together and attempt to make them the same except your imagination. Just the NUMBER: or rather the SIZE: too large to number is enough to know they are not the same group. If we added up all the martyrs to date, from Stephen to today, it would only be a drop in a HUGE bucket compared to the dead in Christ NOT martyred.

Sorry, I don't buy into your argument. All the martyrs throughout all ages up to the time just before the week (chapter 7 time) will not add up to a group too large to number. But the dead in Christ added to those alive in Christ will.

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8 hours ago, Swords99 said:

There was no Roman Catholic church in Peter's day.

Right! But not according to them: they call Peter the first pope.

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8 hours ago, iamlamad said:

But do you BELIEVE it? Case in point: Mystery Babylon. John tells us it is "that great city." and in the very same book, he tells us HIS meaning of "great city" is Jerusalem.

Sorry, but "false religion" does not fit "that great city."

As I mentioned in my earlier posts, According to many Bible scholars and historians the great whore is identified as a great religious system, the RCC, which they claim will fulfil Rev. 17 and dominate the Antichrist for a short time during his rise over the ten kings and until the middle of the Week. Then the beast and the ten kings will destroy her Rev. 17:9-17. Even Catholic divines admit Rev. 17 is a description of their church. See the writing s of Cardinal Ballimor and the French Prelate, Boussuet. She has a name on her forhead, "Mystery Babylon The Great."

What is the historic relation of Babylon to the city of Rome and the Roman Church, and why should Romanism be called Babylon in mystery? That the cities of Rome and Babylon were related seems to have been well known in earlier days.

It is simple to trace in the archives of history the relation of Babylon in Rome and to the Roman church. First look at the history of ancient Babylon. This city was built by Nimrod, the mighty hunter (Gen. 10:8-10). It was the seat of the first great apostasy against God after the flood. Here the Babylonian Cult was invented by Nimrod and his queen Semiraamis. It was a system claiming the highest wisdom and ability to reveal the most divine secrets. This cult was characterized by the word "MYSTERY" because of its systemof mysteries.

Besides confessing to the priests at admission, one was compelled to drink of "mysterious beverages, which says Salvert (Des Sciences Occults, page 259) was indispensable on the part of those who sought initiation into these mysteries."

The "mysterious beverages" were composed of wine, honey, water, and flour. They were always of an intoxicating nature, and until the aspirants had come under the influence of it and had their understanding dimmed they were not prepared for what they would see and hear.

The method was to introduce privately, little by little, information under seal of secrecy and sanction of oath that would be impossible to reveal otherwise. This has been the policy of the Roman Church and the secret of the power of the priests over the lives of men whom they could expose to the world for their sins that have been confessed to them. Once admitted, men were no longer Babylonians, Assyrians,  or Egyptians but were members of a mystical brotherhood, over whom was placed a Supreme Pontiff of High Priest who's word was final in all things in the lives of the brotherhood regardless of the country in which they lived.

The ostensible objects of worship were the Supreme Father, the Incarnate Female, or Queen of Heaven, and her son. The last two were really the only objects of worship as the Supreme Father was said not to interfere with the moral affairs (Nimrod 111 page 239). This system is believed to have come from fallen angels and demons. The object of the cult was to rule the world by these dogmas.

In the days of Nimrod this cult secured a deep hold on the whole human race for it was of one language and all were one people. Nimrod gained the title "might hunter" because of his success in building cities with walls to free men from the ravages of wild beasts which were multiplying against men. He was called "The Apostate" because he sought to free men from the idea of God and His wrath. As a great deliverer and protector of the people and as the head of a godless civilization at that time he would naturally have a great influence upon the people. He led them astray to such an extent that they glorified the fact that they were free from the faith of their fathers.

All tradition from the earliest time bears witness of this great apostasy, which finally reached such proportions that people defied God to send another flood to destroy them and they built a great tower to escape it.

The result was that God confused their language and scattered them throughout the earth. This Babylonian system was the one which the devil had planned to counteract the truth of God. From Babylon it spread to the ends of the earth and we have record that Abraham was chosen of God from all the idolatrous nations to represent the true God.

Through Abraham, God planned to bring man back to Himself. This explains how the different nations of the world have traditions and religions somewhat similar, with changes suitable to the individual nations.

After the nations were scattered abroad, Babylon continued to be the seat of Satan" until it was taken by Xerxas in 784 B.C. The Babylonian priesthood was then forced to leave Babylon, so it moved to Pergamos, which was the headquarters for some time. When Attalus, the Pontiff and King of Pergamos died, he bequeathed the headship of the Babylonian priesthood to Rome. When Etruscans  came to Italy from Lydia (The region of Pergamos) they brought with them the Babylonian religion and rites. They set up a Pontiff who was the head of the priesthood and he had the power of life and death of them all. Later the Romans accepted this Pontiff as their civil ruler.

Julius Caesar was made Supreme Pontiff of the Etruscan Order, he was made Supreme Pontiff of the Babylonian Order, thereby becoming heir to the rites and titles of Attalus, who had made Rome his heir by will.

Thus, the first Roman Emperer became the head of the Babylonian priesthood and became the successor of Babylon with Pergamos as the seat of this cult. Henceforth, Rom's religion has been that of Babylon. In the year 218 A.D. the Roman army in Syria, having rebelled against Macrinus, elected Elagabalus emperor. This man was High Priest of the Egyptian branch of Babylonianism.  He was shortly afterward chosen Supreme Pontiff by the Romans, and thus the two western branches of the Babylonian apostasy centered in the Roman Emperors who continued to hold this office until 367 A. D. At that time, however, the Emperor Gratian, for Christian reasons refused it, because he saw that by nature Babylonianism was idolatrous. Thus, religious matters became disorganized until it became necessary to elect someone to fill that office.

Damasus, Bishop of the Christian Church at Rome, was then elected to the office of supreme Pontiff. He had been bishop for twelve years,  having been made such in 366 A. D. through the influence of the monks of Mount Carmel, a college of the Babylonian religion originally founded by the priests of Jezebel and continued to this day in connection with Rome. So in 378 A.D., the Babylonian system of religion became part of Christendom, for the Bishop of Rome, who later became the supreme head of the organized church, was already Supreme Pontiff of the Babylonian Order.

All the teachings of Pagan Babylon and Rome were gradually interspersed into the Christian religious organizations. Soon after Damasus was made Supreme Pontiff, the rites of Babylon began to come to the front. The worship of the Roman church became babylonish and under him the heathen temples were restored and beautified and the rituals established. Thus the corrupt religious system under the figure of a woman with a golden cup in her hand, making all nations drunk with ther fornication, is called by God, "MYSTERY BABYLON THE GREAT.

 

 

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"At the sounding of the last trump in Revelation 11.  It is in NO WAY related to Paul's "last trump." It is the last of this series but John calls it the 7th trumpet.  

The last trump is the seventh trumpet.  It has nothing to do with Jewish festivals or traditions.
Only pre-tribbers say that.  

Another thing.  I DON'T THINK the beast of Rev. 13 and 17 are the same.

Quote

They are the same  entity: a King with a Kingdom. But Rev. 13 is about the King, the man of sin turned Beast. 

Could be.  I'd have to consider that.  But right off hand, I would have to disagree.  The ten horns have crowns in Revelation 13.  That to me signifies authority and sovereignty and a better established kingdom than in Revelation 17.  I say they are two different Islamic Caliphates.  One in the North, one in the south.

Quote

Rev. 17 is more about his Kingdom.  The 42 months are the time authority is given to the Beast AS THE BEAST. He certainly was alive before this. His kingdom is probably already formed at this time.

Revelation 17 is different.  The Harlot, that great city, 7 mountains, her cup, Babylon the Great and abominations.  It's all Islamic.  After all, a really good harlot is one who would promise it's followers up to 72 virgins in paradise for committing the abominations of the earth.

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What is this daily sacrifice? Once the temple is set up the Jews will once again begin daily sacrifices, in the morning and in the evening. But at the midpoint, they will cease because the temple will have to be cleansed.

There's not one scripture that says a temple needs rebuilding.  What you're saying is a temple needs to be rebuilt, animal sacrifices have to resume, only to have them cease.  I don't believe it.  The Dome of the Rock where Muhammad supposedly ascended to heraven is sufficient to fulfill this prophecy.  The 'daily sacrifice' is the ceassasion of Jewish prayers at the wailing wall.  This wall has yet to fall.  

In Mathew 24Jesus said, "See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
In verse 3 Jesus indirectly answered the question by giving us the first literal sign that would signify the end-times that tribulation, and His return, would come shortly AFTER the massive stones of Wailing Wall fall.  Today there IS "one stone upon another," in the Wailing Wall.  After they fall, tribulation has begun, the sign of "the beginning of sorrows."

And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.  For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. All these are the beginning of sorrows.

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6 hours ago, wingnut- said:

 

Yes I know, they want to change the order and have the living resurrected before all of the dead are.  While they will claim this is not what they are doing, they will make up phrases like tribulation saints who are clearly killed after their mystery event, which of course means that they are doing exactly that, despite the order of resurrection given by both Paul and John.  This is the very reason their theory is not possible and precisely why I reject their theory.

 

 

Agreed, but you said it yourself right here, God brings those who sleep with Him when He comes.  This means that the saints are with Him when He comes for battle.

 

 

Well, it says it in the passage we discussed.  Break it down like this.

 

I Thessalonians 4:14 For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep.

 

He brings those who are asleep with Him, still not in their glorified bodies.

 

I Thessalonians 4:15 For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.

 

He tells us that those alive will be raised after the dead bodies of those who are asleep are raised.

 

I Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

 

Here it clarifies He is descending from heaven when He gives the command, the archangel is with Him along with the trumpet, and the dead rise first.

 

I Thessalonians 4:17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

 

Then the living meet them in the air.  From I Corinthians 15 we know that this is where we are all changed into our glorified bodies, the first resurrection John writes about in Revelation 20.

 

 

I'm not sure either way, whether anyone does any killing other than Jesus Himself.  The Old Testament prophets write about Him speaking the enemy dead, or killing them by simply moving His hand.  I think the one thing about this entire event is that it will be fast, a slaughter.

 

 

Well, the verse from Zechariah 14 does say that.  Look at it from the KJV.

 

Zechariah 14:5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

 

Saints and holy ones are the exact same translation, they are interchangeable words just like elect and chosen.  Almost every translation uses the word saints in Zechariah 14.  Being with Him does not mean we are doing any of the killing, His robe is the only one dipped in blood.

 

 

Once we are in our glorified bodies we are just like the angels, there is no more telling us apart once we are in our glorified bodies.

God bless

Thanks wingnut

Thanks for those scriptures and for looking into it.  Maybe I am not explaining clear enough, but  I am trying to show you this;

Like I said before, the saints will be picked up to meet the Lord in the air, I am not refuting this, ....but it doesn't say that they will meet Christ in heaven, but in the clouds; 

1 Thessalonians 4:17   Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The gathering of the saints is in the clouds.....not heaven.

 

....but here, he is coming straight out of heaven;

  Revelation 19:11   And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

Revelation 19:14   And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

  Revelation 19:15   And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

 

So my reasoning is this; how can Christ come out of heaven with his saints, when he is coming down to collect them in the clouds? 

He cannot come out of heaven with his saints before he has collected them?

 

So those armies he comes out of heaven with, must be the angels.  Now these scriptures make sense,

Matthew 16:27   For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

He comes out of heaven with his angels first, ....then....every man's reward shall be given ....after he comes, ....not before.  So the saints cannot be coming out of heaven with him.

 

Now consider the order of this one;

 Mark 13:24   But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,   (after the tribulation)

  Mark 13:25   And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.

  Mark 13:26   And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

  Mark 13:27   And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

After, the tribulation.....the sun will be dark, and the moon shall not give her light,....then the stars of heaven fall....this also happened in 1833, and they called it a Leonid meteor shower, and after this it was reported to have happened many more times.....something new to me....and it did not destroy the earth back then.....so to me, looks like NASA have not been truthful about what stars really are?.....even one star falling should destroy the earth....but no, .we are still here...then after they see a shower of stars falling, they shall see Christ coming in the clouds.  Don't forget, AFTER THE TRIBULATION.......  Then he sends his angels to gather his elect....from the uttermost part of earth to the uttermost part of heaven, ...now the saints are taken to heaven....  AFTER THE TRIBULATION.... and not when he comes out of heaven with his armies.

Hope you can see where I am coming from  a little clearer now.

 

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6 hours ago, iamlamad said:

What is it about "tribulation saints" you cannot believe?

 

How about the fact it is a made up term that doesn't exist in scripture?  For one so quick to throw condemnation out at others, you really should heed the warnings about adding to the book.

 

5 hours ago, iamlamad said:

When the rapture comes, and they see they have missed it, they will flock to Jesus.

 

Still waiting for you to show where this is stated in the book of Revelation.  All I see are people refusing to repent outside of the one group in Jerusalem following the second woe.

 

5 hours ago, iamlamad said:

In fact, we could ask, why were the 144,000 not raptured if the rapture were pretrib? My guess is, it was the rapture event that convinced them Jesus is their Messiah.

 

We don't need to ask, it is rather obvious, they are unbelieving Jews which is why they require the seal being placed on their forehead.  Your guess would be wrong, if they were believers they wouldn't require the seal on the forehead, they would have the seal of the Holy Spirit.  They also wouldn't need to hide out in the wilderness for 3 1/2 years either.

 

5 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Paul sets the order, and pretrib certainly does not change it: the DEAD in Christ rise first.

 

Of course you're changing it, because you still have people dying after the dead are raised.  And the order Paul gives does not allow for that, only two resurrections of the living, the first one following Christ's resurrection, and the only other being at His coming.  You want to add two or three more resurrections in there, and that is indeed changing it by adding to it.

 

I Corinthians 15:20 But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits (past resurrection), then at his coming those who belong to Christ.  (Only other resurrection, the first resurrection as John calls it)

 

Nothing in between, nothing after other than the resurrection of the dead following the millennium.  When you add two or three more in there, you are in fact trying to change it.  No matter how many times you say it, it will not be true.

 

6 hours ago, iamlamad said:

But the moment after this rapture event, many will die in Paul's "sudden destruction" which I believe is an earthquake caused by the dead in Christ rising.

 

No one will survive the sudden destruction outside of the group in Jerusalem that give glory to God, when God gives a prophecy and says "they will not escape", you can take that to the bank.  Every single unbeliever is toast, as Peter gives a clear description of why.  Fire that melts the heavens and the earth and the elements.

 

6 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Perhaps you believe there cannot be any resurrections before Rev. 20. Is that it?

 

The word first is fairly compelling.  The fact that Paul only gives one more resurrection as well makes two witnesses, no amount of talking around the scripture or adding extra events will convince me otherwise.

 

6 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Not, it does not mean that at all: since Stephen was martyred, anyone who believed in Christ and died went to heaven - as Paul wrote, to be absent from the body (dead) would be to be present with the Lord. It is the SPIRITS of those dead in Christ that returns to earth (sorry, the AIR above the earth) for the pretrib rapture. they come to get their bodies back.

 

That's exactly what I said.

 

6 hours ago, iamlamad said:

I don't think this is at all like:

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. Sorry, but I don't think spirits can make up a fighting army.

 

Revelation 6:9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne. 10 They cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brothers should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.

 

Sure looks like many of them were dressed like that since the fifth seal was opened.

 

6 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Is this what you think about the "first" or chief resurrection?

 

The Old Testament saints have already been resurrected, they were resurrected when Jesus was.  They are in the first group from I Corinthians 15, the resurrection from the past, only one left, which would be the first resurrection from Revelation 20.

God bless

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