Jesus' Return II

[fixerupper]

5 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

WRONG! Christ is NOT one of the riders. The white horse and rider are to represent the CHURCH taking the gospel to the world. The bow without arrows is to represent that fact that the church's weapons are not carnal but are spiritual. But they are mighty, nevertheless.  The church is given a crown.

Sorry, but the four do NOT ride together. Read very carefully the 4th horse and rider. It is written that power is given unto THEM. Read it and find out who the THEM really is. It tells you right in that verse.

No, John is not a false prophet. That is nuts. If you read, you discover that John was suppose to write of things past, things present and things future - and He did. For example, Rev. 12:1-5 is about Christ's birth. It was a "history lesson" for John. those are not my words, they are HIS words.

Perhaps you would like to answer three questions that form the CONTEXT for the seals:

1. Jesus ascended (as you said) long before John saw this vision. There are perhaps a dozen verses telling us that Jesus went to be at the right hand of the Father. Yet, when John looked into the throne room (chapter 4) He saw the Father on the throne but Jesus was NOT THERE. Why?

2. The first search John got to watch for one worthy to break the seals ended in failure, and John wrote, "no man was found." Yet if we read ahead Jesus was found LATER. Why was Jesus not found in that first search John watched that ended in failure?

3. If you notice, the Holy Spirit was there in the throne room in Rev. 4, yet Jesus said that as soon as He went up, He would send the Holy Spirit down. WHY was the Holy Spirit there in chapter 4?

Until you can answer these questions correctly you will never understand this part of John's vision.  These are not my words, they are words Jesus spoke to me.

OK OK

[iamlamad]

Just now, HAZARD said:

Not much of it, all of it. Show me which Scriptures states that city of Jerusalem is "Babylon the Great." Just one?

Rev. 17 and 18 is describing the Roman Catholic Church.

The entire world will not be deceived by the Antichrist because the antichrist will not be ruling the entire world when he appears. He will only have rule over 10 kingdoms.

Why must I spoon feed yet again? Do you believe John or not?

Rev. 17: ¹⁸ And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

Why do you not believe what John wrote? This is very plainly written: the woman who was seen riding the Beast is a CITY. Not a religion. Not all false religions. It is a CITY. And John tells us WHAT city.

Revelation 11:8  And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

Remember. this is John's book, but the Author is the Holy Spirit. It is a revealing, not a hiding. God is not trying to confuse us. Much of Revelation is very easy. John told us that in the mind of the Holy Spirit JERUSALEM is the great city.

You are not reading the evidence John gives us.

First notice, " all the world wondered after the beast."

Rev. 13:⁷ And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

⁸ And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb

Now, laying aside all preconceived glasses, what does this say? It tells us that power was given him  over all people and all nations. I heard two preachers once say "Yes, power was given to him by Satan, but he never managed to use it." No, the world has long wanted a world without God, so God will give them exactly what they want. God will step aside, so to speak, and give Satan 42 months to run this planet: and Satan will use the Beast to do it.

I will agree, there are ten kingdoms with ten kings, and the Beast will take out three, leaving 7, and he will become the 8th king. But the rest of the world will bow to him and allow the mark to be enforced in all nations. Very few people, if any, in the world will not be forced to take the mark.  God is forcing all people to choose a side: it will either be God's side or Satan's side.  Some of this is, of course, my opinion. 

[wingnut-]

2 hours ago, fixerupper said:

Christ or the gospel is never associated with a bow which is 'usually' associated with evil.

 

Isaiah 41  Listen to me in silence, O coastlands;
    let the peoples renew their strength;
let them approach, then let them speak;
    let us together draw near for judgment.

2 Who stirred up one from the east
    whom victory meets at every step?
He gives up nations before him,
    so that he tramples kings underfoot;
he makes them like dust with his sword,
    like driven stubble with his bow.
3 He pursues them and passes on safely,
    by paths his feet have not trod.
4 Who has performed and done this,
    calling the generations from the beginning?
I, the Lord, the first,
    and with the last; I am he.

 

Psalms 7:12 If a man does not repent, God will whet his sword;
    he has bent and readied his bow;
13 he has prepared for him his deadly weapons,
    making his arrows fiery shafts.
14 Behold, the wicked man conceives evil
    and is pregnant with mischief
    and gives birth to lies.
15 He makes a pit, digging it out,
    and falls into the hole that he has made.
16 His mischief returns upon his own head,
    and on his own skull his violence descends.

 

Psalms 21:8 Your hand will find out all your enemies;
    your right hand will find out those who hate you.
9 You will make them as a blazing oven
    when you appear.
The Lord will swallow them up in his wrath,
    and fire will consume them.
10 You will destroy their descendants from the earth,
    and their offspring from among the children of man.
11 Though they plan evil against you,
    though they devise mischief, they will not succeed.
12 For you will put them to flight;
    you will aim at their faces with your bows.

13 Be exalted, O Lord, in your strength!
    We will sing and praise your power.

 

Just a few examples for you.

God bless

[iamlamad]

12 hours ago, inchrist said:

Jerusalem on earth under the dominion of heaven

If you miss it, it will be your own doing. It is going to be held in the heavenly city. Unless, like another here, you imagine it is the feast for the birds.

[HAZARD]

5 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Why must I spoon feed yet again? Do you believe John or not?

Rev. 17: ¹⁸ And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

Why do you not believe what John wrote? This is very plainly written: the woman who was seen riding the Beast is a CITY. Not a religion. Not all false religions. It is a CITY. And John tells us WHAT city.

Revelation 11:8  And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

Remember. this is John's book, but the Author is the Holy Spirit. It is a revealing, not a hiding. God is not trying to confuse us. Much of Revelation is very easy. John told us that in the mind of the Holy Spirit JERUSALEM is the great city.

You are not reading the evidence John gives us.

First notice, " all the world wondered after the beast."

Rev. 13:⁷ And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

⁸ And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb

Now, laying aside all preconceived glasses, what does this say? It tells us that power was given him  over all people and all nations. I heard two preachers once say "Yes, power was given to him by Satan, but he never managed to use it." No, the world has long wanted a world without God, so God will give them exactly what they want. God will step aside, so to speak, and give Satan 42 months to run this planet: and Satan will use the Beast to do it.

I will agree, there are ten kingdoms with ten kings, and the Beast will take out three, leaving 7, and he will become the 8th king. But the rest of the world will bow to him and allow the mark to be enforced in all nations. Very few people, if any, in the world will not be forced to take the mark.  God is forcing all people to choose a side: it will either be God's side or Satan's side.  Some of this is, of course, my opinion. 

You wrote, "Why must I spoon feed yet again?"

For a start you can drop the wise cracks and smart comments. There's no need for any of them. This is a discussion not a competition. You are not our teacher and we are not your students.

Rev. 17: 18, And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

The great whore is a city that has a kingdom reigning over the ten kingdoms.  Playing the whore in symbolic language always refers to religious fornication and idolatry  Rev. 17:1-4, Isa. 23:17; 57:3-7; Jer. 3:2-9; Ez. 16:1-63; 20:30-32; 23:7-49; Hos. 4:2-19; nah. 3:4. Literal fornication must also be understood in some of these. Her causing many nations to commit fornication with her, proves that idolatrous religious practices are being referred to, as in passages above.

She is not a political power for she is not classed as one of t"he kings of the earth." She only causes the kings and inhabitants of the earth to be drunk with the wine of her fornication (v 2-4).

Since fornication her refers to religious harlotry then her influence over the nations is through religion. The beast which the woman rides is the 8th kingdom, made up of the many waters or peoples inside the old Roman Empire territory (v 1, 3, 11, 15).

Since the beast itself is the kingdom, the woman must be religion dominating the kingdom until she is destroyed by it (v 12-17).

The attire of the "great Whore" identifies her as a religious system or as a whore committing spiritual fornication, duping political powers by her whordoms and idolatries (v 4.). The purple, scarlet, precious stones, pearls, and golden vessels indicate the wealth of the system. Cp. Ez. 23:40-41.

The golden cup in her hand, full of her unclean-ness, spiritual fornication, and abominations by which she dupes political powers proves her to be a religious power. Cp. Ez. 23:23-29.

Her mane "MYSTERY BABYLON" indicates she is not LITERAL BABYLON. The word mystery identifies her with the religious rites and mysteries of ancient Babylon.

The name MOTHER OF HARLOTS identifies the whore as a religious system (v 5), The harlots refer to many branches which have sprung from her and have become as much apostate as the great whore herself. She is a symbol of apostate religions being linked together  after the rapture of the church to dominate the ten kings of the revised Roman Empire until Antichrist comes to full power over the ten kingdoms by the middle of Daniels 70th Week (v 1, 3, 9-17).

The MOTHER OF ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH identifies her to be a religious system fostering and tolerating all the aboninations that go with idolatry and spiritual fornications. The word abominations is used many times of idolatry and whordoms associated with pagan worship (Dt. 18?9-12; 29:17-18; 32:16-17; 1 Kings 14:24; 2 Kings 16:3-4; 21:2-11; Ez. 16:22-58). The great whore of the future tribulation will be the mother of abominations in God's sight because she will exceed all others in wickedness.

Her drunkenness - being drunk with the blood of martyrs of Jesus, proves beyond doubt that she is a religious institution. Only religion has killed the martyrs if Jesus in all ages. Governments have carried out the dictates of leaders in religion, doing the actual killing of saints because of religion. Although this prophecy speaks of the future drunken-ness of Mystical Babylon after the rapture of the church, who among us does not know of the martyrdom of 200,000,000 people in the past because they would not conform to organized religion?

[fixerupper]

8 hours ago, wingnut- said:

 

Isaiah 41  Listen to me in silence, O coastlands;
    let the peoples renew their strength;
let them approach, then let them speak;
    let us together draw near for judgment.

2 Who stirred up one from the east
    whom victory meets at every step?
He gives up nations before him,
    so that he tramples kings underfoot;
he makes them like dust with his sword,
    like driven stubble with his bow.
3 He pursues them and passes on safely,
    by paths his feet have not trod.
4 Who has performed and done this,
    calling the generations from the beginning?
I, the Lord, the first,
    and with the last; I am he.

 

Psalms 7:12 If a man does not repent, God will whet his sword;
    he has bent and readied his bow;
13 he has prepared for him his deadly weapons,
    making his arrows fiery shafts.
14 Behold, the wicked man conceives evil
    and is pregnant with mischief
    and gives birth to lies.
15 He makes a pit, digging it out,
    and falls into the hole that he has made.
16 His mischief returns upon his own head,
    and on his own skull his violence descends.

 

Psalms 21:8 Your hand will find out all your enemies;
    your right hand will find out those who hate you.
9 You will make them as a blazing oven
    when you appear.
The Lord will swallow them up in his wrath,
    and fire will consume them.
10 You will destroy their descendants from the earth,
    and their offspring from among the children of man.
11 Though they plan evil against you,
    though they devise mischief, they will not succeed.
12 For you will put them to flight;
    you will aim at their faces with your bows.

13 Be exalted, O Lord, in your strength!
    We will sing and praise your power.

 

Just a few examples for you.

God bless

You mean just a few bad examples.  They're all taken WAY out of context.  Just like the others, you fall for interpretations by mentors who are even more misled than you are.

I said, "Christ or the gospel is never associated with a bow which is 'usually' associated with evil."

People aren't sure who Isaiah 41 is taliking about.  Some say is't Cyrus, others say Abraham.  To say Isaiah 41 describes Jesus as having a bow is incorrect. 

Pslam 7:12 He will sharpen His sword; He bends His bow and makes it ready:  This is talking about the readiness of God to judge the sinner.

Psalm 21:12 For you will put them to flight; you will aim at their faces with your bows.  This is talking about God's judgment against the enemies of God.

The bow is used of God's judgment and figurative of a counterfeit truth. A bow can signify a doctrine of truth, or a doctrine of falsity. This link written in the 17th century is very informative.

E. Swedenborg (1688-1772)......
http://www.biblemeanings.info/Words/Artifact/Bow.htm

The bow denotes falsehood and deceit. (Ps. 64:3, 4; Hos. 7:16; Jer. 9:3).

Jeremiah 9:3 And they bend their tongues like their bow for lies: but they are not valiant for the truth upon the earth; for they proceed from evil to evil, and they know not me, saith the LORD.

Hosea 7:16 They return, but not to the most High: they are like a deceitful bow: their princes shall fall by the sword for the rage of their tongue: this shall be their derision in the land of Egypt. 

Psalm 64:3  Who whet their tongue like a sword, and bend their bows to shoot their arrows, even bitter words:

[Sister]

12 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Sister,

Great we agree. Now I do not think angels can be called saints. And good discussion you are all having.

Marilyn.

Hi Marilyn

Ok thanks, that's what I thought.

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, inchrist said:

You very presumptuous, where do I even imagine the feasts of birds is the lords supper? My eschatology is based hebrew thought, not greek thought

Sorry. There are others here that believe it.

[iamlamad]

19 minutes ago, fixerupper said:

You mean just a few bad examples.  They're all taken WAY out of context.  Just like the others, you fall for interpretations by mentors who are even more misled than you are.

I said, "Christ or the gospel is never associated with a bow which is 'usually' associated with evil."

Can you prove that with scripture? Just making a statement does not carry much weight. My answer would be, Yes it is associated - at least ONCE in this scripture of the first seal.

This seal was opened around 32 AD as soon as Jesus ascended and got the book from the Father. We know this from chapters 4 & 5 that are the context for the first seal.

John used the color white 17 other times to represent righteousness. Therefore it should go without saying that this white horse represents righteous conquering. To imagine that God would chose white one time out of 18 to represent something else than righteousness would be silly. It just would not happen.  The horse probably represents warfare or conquering.

So add it up: we have righteous conquering going forth, around 32 AD. There was only ONE ENTITY on earth God would consider righteous at that time, and that was the infant church.

If you can come up with something else around the time Jesus ascended that would be righteous and would be going forth to conquer or overcome, please show us.

Strong's says for bow:  Toxon: (Where we get the word toxic):
"a bow (apparently as the simplest fabric):—bow. "

This is one time where I believe Strong's missed it completely. In English a "bow" can be fabric like a ribbon.  But "Toxon" comes from the poison put on arrow, apparently. To imagine this bow is like a bow made from a ribbon seems strange.

However, if Mr. Strong is correct, there goes fixerupper's argument.

[Sister]

11 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Why do you not believe what John wrote? This is very plainly written: the woman who was seen riding the Beast is a CITY. Not a religion. Not all false religions. It is a CITY. And John tells us WHAT city.

 

iamlamad

The woman is Satan's City, and consists of all the kingdom's of the world, called Babylon spiritually.

 

Luke 4:5   And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time.

Luke 4:6   And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it.

Luke 4:7   If thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine.

This is that great City, all the kingdoms, and the nations of the earth....Babylon, where our Lord was also crucified (He wasn't crucified in Zion)

 

 

11 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Rev. 17: ¹⁸ And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

Why do you not believe what John wrote? This is very plainly written: the woman who was seen riding the Beast is a CITY. Not a religion. Not all false religions. It is a CITY. And John tells us WHAT city.

Revelation 11:8  And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

Remember. this is John's book, but the Author is the Holy Spirit. It is a revealing, not a hiding. God is not trying to confuse us. Much of Revelation is very easy. John told us that in the mind of the Holy Spirit JERUSALEM is the great city.

Jesus was killed in Jerusalem, but also in the great city of Babylon.  Babylon is the "heart of the earth", where men's heart's are.

Matthew 12:40   For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

 

Rome was serving Babylon, Jerusalem was serving Babylon, all against God and Christ are spiritually serving the King of Babylon, ...the god of this world.  They are all one.  Jesus was taken and killed under Satan's kingdom.  His kingdom is the one responsible, and God's kingdom Zion will have the vengeance.

 

 Jeremiah 50:28   The voice of them that flee and escape out of the land of Babylon, to declare in Zion the vengeance of the LORD our God, the vengeance of his temple.

  Jeremiah 50:29   Call together the archers against Babylon: all ye that bend the bow, camp against it round about; let none thereof escape: recompense her according to her work; according to all that she hath done, do unto her: for she hath been proud against the LORD, against the Holy One of Israel.

  Jeremiah 50:30   Therefore shall her young men fall in the streets, and all her men of war shall be cut off in that day, saith the LORD.

  Jeremiah 50:31   Behold, I am against thee, O thou most proud, saith the Lord GOD of hosts: for thy day is come, the time that I will visit thee.

Jeremiah 50:37   A sword is upon their horses, and upon their chariots, and upon all the mingled people that are in the midst of her; and they shall become as women: a sword is upon her treasures; and they shall be robbed.

  Jeremiah 50:38   A drought is upon her waters; and they shall be dried up: for it is the land of graven images, and they are mad upon their idols.

  Jeremiah 50:39   Therefore the wild beasts of the desert with the wild beasts of the islands shall dwell there, and the owls shall dwell therein: and it shall be no more inhabited for ever; neither shall it be dwelt in from generation to generation.

Jerusalem will be inhabited again?

 

Jeremiah 51:7   Babylon hath been a golden cup in the LORD'S hand, that made all the earth drunken: the nations have drunken of her wine; therefore the nations are mad.

 

Edited June 29, 2017 by Sister