Matthew 24: Rapture, Second Coming or Both?

[rollinTHUNDER]

2 hours ago, Daniel 11:36 said:

.... but the scriptures do [1 Corinthians 15:20-23; 15:51-58; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; 2 Thessalonians 2:1; 2 Thessalonians 5:1-9; Revelation 3:10; 4:4; 5:1-10; 7:9-17; 18:4; 19:14; 20:4 (I saw thrones and they that sat on them)]

Read them

Okay, if you say so, but I can't see how any of the scriptures you cited point to a pre-trib rapture, not a single one.  That theory is on the chopping block, and will be the first one proven false.  

Cheers

[Daniel 11:36]

What ever you want to say ....

But the Lord will descend from heaven and immortalize both the dead in Christ and those living at the time .... a time not revealed in scripture

Then the 70th week of Daniel will begin just after [Romans  11:25; 11:26] .... the time of some of Israel will be saved during this period as expressed .... the rest of the nation will perish

Believe what you want, but this is biblical truth

Edited June 26, 2017 by Daniel 11:36

[missmuffet]

The important differences between the rapture and second coming are as follows:

1) At the rapture, believers meet the Lord in the air (1 Thessalonians 4:17). At the second coming, believers return with the Lord to the earth (Revelation 19:14).

2) The second coming occurs after the great and terrible tribulation (Revelation chapters 6–19). The rapture occurs before the tribulation (1 Thessalonians 5:9; Revelation 3:10).

3) The rapture is the removal of believers from the earth as an act of deliverance (1 Thessalonians 4:13-17, 5:9). The second coming includes the removal of unbelievers as an act of judgment (Matthew 24:40-41).

4) The rapture will be secret and instant (1 Corinthians 15:50-54). The second coming will be visible to all (Revelation 1:7; Matthew 24:29-30).

5) The second coming of Christ will not occur until after certain other end-times events take place (2 Thessalonians 2:4; Matthew 24:15-30; Revelation chapters 6–18). The rapture is imminent; it could take place at any moment (Titus 2:13; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; 1 Corinthians 15:50-54).

Why is it important to keep the rapture and the second coming distinct?

1) If the rapture and the second coming are the same event, believers will have to go through the tribulation (1 Thessalonians 5:9; Revelation 3:10).

2) If the rapture and the second coming are the same event, the return of Christ is not imminent—there are many things which must occur before He can return (Matthew 24:4-30).

3) In describing the tribulation period, Revelation chapters 6–19 nowhere mentions the church. During the tribulation—also called “the time of trouble for Jacob” (Jeremiah 30:7)—God will again turn His primary attention to Israel (Romans 11:17-31).

The rapture and second coming are similar but separate events. Both involve Jesus returning. Both are end-times events. However, it is crucially important to recognize the differences. In summary, the rapture is the return of Christ in the clouds to remove all believers from the earth before the time of God’s wrath. The second coming is the return of Christ to the earth to bring the tribulation to an end and to defeat the Antichrist and his evil world empire.

https://www.gotquestions.org/difference-Rapture-Second-Coming.html

[Revelation Man]

22 hours ago, rollinTHUNDER said:

 

Note: Matthew 24 text will be in Red, all other scripture will be in Purple

After nearly 2000 years, Christ’s Olivet Discourse still remains a hotly debated subject among biblical scholars, not only because of the controversial rapture and/or second coming issue, but also because many scholars surprisingly contend that it has already been fulfilled. My interpretation differs widely from most Eschatology scholar’s, mainly because the vast majority of them have reached their conclusions without studying the entire text.  To be clear, most scholars do not include Matthew 25, probably because they are either intimidated by Christ’s parables, cannot reconcile them with their beliefs about Matthew 24 or maybe they don’t believe the parables are related.  It seems obvious to me, though, that if a theory must ignore or is incompatible with these parables, then it is likely an incorrect interpretation.  Christ provided these parables so that the wise could better understand this profound mystery, but at the same time, they would also be a stumbling block for the wicked or foolish.
.

 

Matthew 24 Revealed: Understanding The Timeline  { Matthew 24:1-6 is about the Destruction of the Temple and Jerusalem }

Matthew 24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. 2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. 3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? 

The first question was about what Jesus had just said, the Temple being DESTROYED (When shall these things be?) The second question was what will be the Sign of your Coming. These are dealt with in order. Also Remember that false prophets and/or false chirsts are mentioned three times, in verse 5, 11 and 24 and they are THREE SEPARATE EVENTS. 

If Jesus is going to give them a sign/understanding of these events, wouldn't he walk them through the whole 2000 year period? I think he would, and clearly does. Lets go through a few of the verses to see why I believe as I do. And we know its a 2000 year period, its 2017 SMILE. Well Almost 2000.

Onward...... Matthew 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, take heed that no man deceive you. 5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. Matthew 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

{{ Jesus here is warning the Disciples not to be deceived, it is well known that the Rabbis/Pharisees in order to put down the "Jesus movement" and because they thought the Roman occupation was the END TIMES or the Fourth Beast and thus they were expecting the "Little Horn" at any moment to come forth.  Thus they were "Looking" for the Messiah to come forth and save them, so they put forth various Messiahs just before the Temple and Jerusalem's destruction, which was caused by their rebellion against Rome. Jesus is telling his Disciples not to fall for lies, many will come in my name, saying I am the Messiah, but they will not be me Returning, it is not that time he tells them, do not fall for the lies for the End is not yet. The end will be by and by. He was basically warning his Disciples not to come back to Jerusalem when he heard of these things, thinking it was him come again, like in Zechariah 14, because if they heard the rumors and came back to Jerusalem, no doubt they would be in the line of fire and probably killed, so his warning was to STAY AWAY. Don't buy the false stories of Christ is in Jerusalem Jesus here is informing his Disciples that they will hear of Wars and Rumors of wars, no doubt Jesus knew many of the Disciples would venture afar taking the Gospel unto all the world, thus they would not see this destruction of the Temple, some would, but many would just HEAR OF IT, Jesus tells them, THIS IS NOT THE END !! Meaning that even though the Pharisees and Rabbis were looking for the Messiah to Save them, (from Rome) this was not the time of Jesus' Second Coming, thus he says, the END IS NOT YET !!  }}

 7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

{{  Then Jesus seems to shift past the lives of the Disciples and into a futuristic, 2000 year period of time. He speaks about Nations against Nations, Kingdoms against Kingdoms, famines, pestilences and earthquakes, and he says these are the Beginnings of Sorrows !! The Greek word used for sorrows implies BIRTH PANGS, this is Jesus telling the Disciples that all of these things Must happen first, and that will be the Sign (BIRTH PANG) that the end is Near. The next few verses are also covering the full 2000 year period, speaking at times about the Disciples, and at other times about the whole 2000 year period, until the Rapture. }}

Matthew 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. 10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

{{ I think this is mainly Jesus telling his Disciples their coming fate. Many people would betray them, and most all of the Disciples would become Martyrs, save John and a couple of others. They don't kill you if they don't hate you right? And no doubt, many betrayed them, like Judas betrayed Jesus. }}

11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

{{ I think this is speaking of the overall period from Jesus or 70 AD, until the Rapture. Jesus throws this in to let everyone know, there will be many false prophets (Jonestown, and cults like it have risen over the 2000 year period since Jesus' death) and because of Sin or the acceptance thereof, (at the End Times or Birth Pangs) the love of Many shall wax Cold.....Abortion, Murder, Homosexuality being pushed as normal etc. Then Jesus says, BUT..... out of all of these things I have described unto you all, (Matthew 24:7-13) he that endures all things that might come upon him, he that KEEPS THE FAITH until the End (of his life) the same shall be SAVED. In other words if we turn from God/Jesus and return unto the world, we will be Cast out of Jesus' mouth as Lukewarm. We must overcome Satan by the Blood of the Lamb, we can not turn back to living a sinful life, we must endure all of our temptations. It doesn't mean we will not Sin..........It just means we can not turn back unto a sinful lifestyle. WE MUST ENDURE IN CHRIST until the end. We are to run the Marathon. Amen }}

This above is Jesus answering their questions, "When shall these things be"? He walks them through the full 2000 year period between when he was alive, until he calls the Church home at the Rapture. The destruction of the Temple is spoken of but Jesus says, the end is not yet !! Then Jesus finishes the 2000 panoramic view. The Rapture scriptures of Matthew 24:36-51 should actually be next, verses 36-51 should come after verse 13 or 14. But Mathew did not have a clue about the Rapture, so he (correctly) placed it with the Second Coming verses 27-31, at least in his thinking it was correct.

On to the 70th Week of Daniel now. The 3 1/2 years of Peace/Security followed by the 3 1/2 years of Gods Wrath. The Rapture happens after verse 13 or 14. In my honest opinion Matthew 24:36-51, belongs right here.

Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. 15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, {whoso readeth, let him understand} 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

{{ Verse 14 kind of belongs with verses 7-13, but it can also go on this side of the 2000 year divide. It straddles the gap so to speak. The Gospel must be preached unto all the World, then the END WILL COME !! This is very clear, once the Church has preached the Gospel unto all the world for a witness to Jesus' saving Grace, then and only then can the End Times come upon us. Jesus then goes on to tell us/disciples about this End Time Period. He warns the Jewish peoples that when they see the Abomination of Desolation, spoken of by Daniel the Prophet, they should Flee Jerusalem. THIS IS AN END TIME EVENT.........There is no doubt about that at all. Now Jesus must answer the next questions, what will be the Sign of thy coming, and what will be the end (of the age) of time. }}

Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. 23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, (THE Anti-Christ and False Prophet here) and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

25 Behold, I have told you before. 26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. 27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

{{ Jesus is telling his Disciples, and thus warning the Jewish peoples of the coming Tribulation Period what to look for. He is warning them not to fall for the Anti-Christ and False Prophets tricks when they try to entice Israel to come out of their safe space, where God says in Revelation 12 that he will protect them for 1260 days, from the Anti-Christ/Dragon (Satan). Israel have accepted Jesus as their Messiah by this time. (Malachi 4:5-6) So of course the Anti-Christ and False Prophet wants to deceive them into thinking Jesus has RETURNED (because they want to kill them, of course) and is in the Desert or Secret Chambers !! But Jesus says do not fall for their lies, for I will not be in the Desert or in a Secret Chambers.... for I will be coming from the Eastern Skies for all to see. Amen }}

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn (Vials 6 & 7), and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

{{ So, Jesus tells the Jewish peoples the Signs of his Coming and when the end shall be. This is the End of the Age, no doubt. IMMEDIATELY AFTER the Tribulation of those days (Troubles/Jacobs Trouble), these signs will be in the sky and then you will see me coming in the clouds from the East, and all the tribes and nations will see the Glory of my Coming. And the Angels will gather THE ELECT from the Four Corners of Heaven, [where the Church has been for SEVEN YEARS, Marrying the Lamb] and we will Return on White Horses with Jesus Christ just as Rev. 19 says. Amen. }} 


Now Jesus has covered the largest base of the Jewish peoples because 85-95 percent of them will not receive the Lord Jesus Christ before the Rapture that Paul has spoken about in many places, including 1 Corinthians 15. So now Jesus must cover the few Messianic Jews plight. What will happen to them at the End Times? Well they will be Raptured, along with all the dead in Christ, and those of us who are alive when Jesus calls us home to Heaven, so we can Marry the Lamb (Rev. 19) and then return with him to destroy the Anti-Christ and his Minions.

So Matthew 36-51 tells about the coming Rapture of the Church, but I will only post verses 38-42, for it emphasizes everything that needs to be said, Jesus tells the Messianic Jews about their destiny : (This should come just after Matthew 24:13-14)

Matthew 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

{{ This of course happens right before the Tribulation, or Jacobs Troubles. If this actually happened during the Tribulation period would they be Drinking/Marrying and having a grand ole time? No, of course not, that makes no sense, the Jewish nation will be in hiding in the Wilderness, (Rev. 12) and the wicked men of earth will be dodging the plagues of Gods Wrath, there will be no one who will be having fun just before Jesus' SECOND COMING, that I can assure you !! So this is the Rapture here, we are expectant, but Surprised when Jesus Returns. The World during Gods Wrath will not be surprised, the 6th Seal is the Gathering of nations unto Meggido for Armageddon, so does anyone really think that Jesus showing up on The Mt. of Olives at Vial number 7 is going to be a surprise? NO.....The Anti-Christ has exactly 42 Months to rule. }}

Jesus then illustrates what can only be the Rapture, it can not be the Second Coming. He says Two will be in the field and One will be taken and the other shall be left [Behind]. The same thing is spoken about with the women grinding at the mill, One will be taken and One left.

Then Jesus says WATCH, for you know not what hour when your Lord comes. Just like the Bride knew not what hour the Bridegroom was to come !! We know when Jesus' Second Coming will be. Exactly 42 Months after the Anti-Christ commits the Abomination of Desolation, AND.......everyone on earth will all see Jesus (with us at his side) splitting the Eastern skies, no one will be left behind, believe me, the Wicked will be DESTROYED, not left behind. Amen. 

Matthew 24:1-6 is the Destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple.

Matthew 24:7-13 is the 2000 year period from 70 AD to the Rapture.

Matthew 24:36-51 is the Rapture/Matthew thought it should be with the Second Coming.

Matthew 24:15-28 is the Abomination/Time of Troubles/False Prophet and Anti-Christ time.

Matthew 24:29-31 is the Second Coming of Jesus Christ. The Church will come back from Heaven with Jesus Christ on White Horses (Rev. 19) Amen, Glory to God.

Matthew 24:32-35 is the Parable of the "FIG TREE". It basically is saying when the Fig Tree is ripe you know that Summer is NEAR and Likewise, when you SEE ALL OF THESE SIGNS, My Coming will be Near.

The Sign of Jesus Second Coming will.......NOT be when you see the Temples/Jerusalem's Destruction, NOT when you see the Kingdoms vs. Kingdoms or pestilences, NOT be when the Gospel is Preached unto all the World, NOT be when the Abomination of Desolation happens, NOT be when you see the TROUBLES OF JACOB, it will NOT be when you see the false christ and false prophet, it will NOT be when you see the Sun turn dark, the moon turn red or the stars falling from the skies.

But the Second Coming will only happen when you see ALL OF THESE SIGNS COME TO PASS !! 

Basically this is a multi faceted prophecy, that takes deep thinking and revelation from God to understand via much prayer. 

[rollinTHUNDER]

I want to thank my pre-trib brethren for your thoughts.  And as a former pre-tribber, myself (1990-2005), I know full well where this argument always leads to.  Honestly, I think it's a complete waste of time that actually reminds me of a dog chasing after its own tail. 

Besides, I can tell that some of you didn't even bother to read my post, and that's fine too.  Nonetheless, I hope you'll keep seeking the truth in God's Word just the same. 

Cheers

[Sister]

Hi Rolling thunder

Thank you.  I read it all.  There's a lot to ponder over.

[iamlamad]

22 hours ago, Daniel 11:36 said:

Matthew 24 has nothing to do with the pre-tribulation event [rapture]

There is nothing to do with this event in the passage

All of Matthew 24 is related to Israel during the coming 70th week decreed for the nation

...

I agree with the above. Book or no book, Daniel tells us the 70th week is for HIS people.

[iamlamad]

12 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Then Jesus says WATCH, for you know not what hour when your Lord comes. Just like the Bride knew not what hour the Bridegroom was to come !! We know when Jesus' Second Coming will be. Exactly 42 Months after the Anti-Christ commits the Abomination of Desolation, AND.......everyone on earth will all see Jesus (with us at his side) splitting the Eastern skies, no one will be left behind, believe me, the Wicked will be DESTROYED, not left behind. Amen. 

I disagree. In Revelation we find chapters 17 and 18 BETWEEN the end of the 70th week (the 7th vial)  and Christ's coming in chapter 19. And what takes place in chapter 19 before His coming? The marriage and supper. John shows us that these events will come AFTER the 70th week has finished. The truth is, NO ONE WILL KNOW the day nor the hour. It will be dark - probably for days. They will certainly know He is coming, but not know exactly when.

And it will be the very same for His coming pretrib FOR His saints. No one will know: people will be saying "peace and safety" just like we find in the news today. When SUDDENLY the dead in Christ will rise.

[iamlamad]

14 hours ago, missmuffet said:

The important differences between the rapture and second coming are as follows:

1) At the rapture, believers meet the Lord in the air (1 Thessalonians 4:17). At the second coming, believers return with the Lord to the earth (Revelation 19:14).

2) The second coming occurs after the great and terrible tribulation (Revelation chapters 6–19). The rapture occurs before the tribulation (1 Thessalonians 5:9; Revelation 3:10).

3) The rapture is the removal of believers from the earth as an act of deliverance (1 Thessalonians 4:13-17, 5:9). The second coming includes the removal of unbelievers as an act of judgment (Matthew 24:40-41).

4) The rapture will be secret and instant (1 Corinthians 15:50-54). The second coming will be visible to all (Revelation 1:7; Matthew 24:29-30).

5) The second coming of Christ will not occur until after certain other end-times events take place (2 Thessalonians 2:4; Matthew 24:15-30; Revelation chapters 6–18). The rapture is imminent; it could take place at any moment (Titus 2:13; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; 1 Corinthians 15:50-54).

Why is it important to keep the rapture and the second coming distinct?

1) If the rapture and the second coming are the same event, believers will have to go through the tribulation (1 Thessalonians 5:9; Revelation 3:10).

2) If the rapture and the second coming are the same event, the return of Christ is not imminent—there are many things which must occur before He can return (Matthew 24:4-30).

3) In describing the tribulation period, Revelation chapters 6–19 nowhere mentions the church. During the tribulation—also called “the time of trouble for Jacob” (Jeremiah 30:7)—God will again turn His primary attention to Israel (Romans 11:17-31).

The rapture and second coming are similar but separate events. Both involve Jesus returning. Both are end-times events. However, it is crucially important to recognize the differences. In summary, the rapture is the return of Christ in the clouds to remove all believers from the earth before the time of God’s wrath. The second coming is the return of Christ to the earth to bring the tribulation to an end and to defeat the Antichrist and his evil world empire.

https://www.gotquestions.org/difference-Rapture-Second-Coming.html

Thanks, Miss Muffet.  Well put. I do disagree with at least one point: The 70th week or "trib" goes from the 7th seal to the 7th vial - so from chapter 8 to chapter 16. The events of chapters 17 and 18 will come after the week has finished.

[iamlamad]

18 hours ago, rollinTHUNDER said:

Okay, if you say so, but I can't see how any of the scriptures you cited point to a pre-trib rapture, not a single one.  That theory is on the chopping block, and will be the first one proven false.  

Cheers

Sorry, but it will be yours proven false!  God is pretrib. So will the rapture be. By the way, "falling away" is really a bad translation. Several earlier translations were a significant DEPARTING which will be the Bride of Christ "taken out of the way" so the man of sin can be revealed.

Question: in 2 Thes. 2:3 part b, is the man of sin revealed then in Paul's argument or not?