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Matthew 24: Rapture, Second Coming or Both?


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6 hours ago, iamlamad said:

By the way, "falling away" is really a bad translation. Several earlier translations were a significant DEPARTING which will be the Bride of Christ "taken out of the way" so the man of sin can be revealed.

 

Mark 4: 16 And these are the ones sown on rocky ground: the ones who, when they hear the word, immediately receive it with joy. 17 And they have no root in themselves, but endure for a while; then, when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately they fall away.

 

Let me guess, bad translation as well?  These folks are being taken out of the way as well.  :rolleyes:

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2 hours ago, wingnut- said:

 

Mark 4: 16 And these are the ones sown on rocky ground: the ones who, when they hear the word, immediately receive it with joy. 17 And they have no root in themselves, but endure for a while; then, when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately they fall away.

 

Let me guess, bad translation as well?  These folks are being taken out of the way as well.  :rolleyes:

If one really studies rather than just casual reading, they would know that Paul was speaking of a VERY SIGNIFICANT departing. And from his argument, it would have to be something so significant people could tell that it had taken place. Sorry, but a falling away does not qualify. How would anyone know if enough had fallen away to qualify for what Paul was saying - to KNOW the Day and arrived.  In fact, and in truth, the rapture departing would fit perfectly. And that was the very theme of this passage.

Next, if someone really studied, they would know that whatever Paul meant by "apostasia" it had to be the very same thing spoke of in verses 6-8: the entity that was restraining the man of sin from being revealed until the proper time. It also had to be the entity "taken out of the way" so the man of sin could be revealed in his time. A "falling away" just does not fit. Those KJV translators missed it on this one.

The truth is, when some fall away, MORE COME. The church of Jesus Christ, the body of Christ, has been on the increase worldwide for a long time.

 

Question for you: in 2 Thes. 2:3 part b, is the man of sin revealed then in Paul's argument or not?

Edited by iamlamad
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6 hours ago, iamlamad said:

If one really studies rather than just casual reading, they would know that Paul was speaking of a VERY SIGNIFICANT departing. And from his argument, it would have to be something so significant people could tell that it had taken place. Sorry, but a falling away does not qualify. How would anyone know if enough had fallen away to qualify for what Paul was saying - to KNOW the Day and arrived.  In fact, and in truth, the rapture departing would fit perfectly. And that was the very theme of this passage.

 

Further proof that De Nial is not just a river in Egypt.  :rolleyes:

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7 hours ago, wingnut- said:

 

Further proof that De Nial is not just a river in Egypt.  :rolleyes:

I am not responsible for your level of understanding. Why is it you keep avoiding the question?

Question for you: in 2 Thes. 2:3 part b, is the man of sin revealed then in Paul's argument or not?

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5 hours ago, iamlamad said:

I am not responsible for your level of understanding. Why is it you keep avoiding the question?

Question for you: in 2 Thes. 2:3 part b, is the man of sin revealed then in Paul's argument or not?

 

The fact that you do not know Greek is the issue here, which is why falling away is lost on you.  It is not harpazo, no matter how hard you try to make it say what you want.  Thank goodness you are not responsible for my understanding is all I can say, I am glad I know the difference.  As I have said before, I cannot have a serious conversation with you when you try to redefine words.

God bless

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On 6/27/2017 at 8:35 AM, iamlamad said:

I disagree. In Revelation we find chapters 17 and 18 BETWEEN the end of the 70th week (the 7th vial)  and Christ's coming in chapter 19. And what takes place in chapter 19 before His coming? The marriage and supper. John shows us that these events will come AFTER the 70th week has finished. The truth is, NO ONE WILL KNOW the day nor the hour. It will be dark - probably for days. They will certainly know He is coming, but not know exactly when.

And it will be the very same for His coming pretrib FOR His saints. No one will know: people will be saying "peace and safety" just like we find in the news today. When SUDDENLY the dead in Christ will rise.

1. Rev. 16 says IT IS DONE meaning its over. like I have stated many times.

2. Rev. 17 happens beginning in the 6th Chapter, the Harlot or False Religion is killed off. (Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, {CHRISTIANITY Not False of course} will all be outlawed) and it happens when the Anti-Christ goes forth to conquer. 

3. Rev. 18 is Babylon, the "Statue", the Governments of the world, the Nations that come against God and Israel, RECEIVING her richly deserved plagues. So Rev. 18 is happening from the Seals to the Seventh Vial. 

4. Revelation 19 is predating Rev. 16 but ends when Rev. 16 ends. You agree that the Rapture is Pre-tribulation, so this is the Church in Heaven for the full Seven Years. We Marry the Lamb, then return and the Battle of Armageddon happens. Jesus gave us a clue about this in Matthew 24:28 when he said this: 28 "For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together." The Eagles are the Church  in Rev. 19, we will be where the carcass is at, and that will be the Marriage Feast. Amen. The Supper happens after the Return.

Rev. 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King Of Kings, And Lord Of Lords. 

17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the FOWLS (Eagles) that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; 18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

 

I agree with your 2 Thess. 2 is a bad translation. Its rather obvious when studied in depth.

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5 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

1. Rev. 16 says IT IS DONE meaning its over. like I have stated many times.

2. Rev. 17 happens beginning in the 6th Chapter, the Harlot or False Religion is killed off. (Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, {CHRISTIANITY Not False of course} will all be outlawed) and it happens when the Anti-Christ goes forth to conquer. 

3. Rev. 18 is Babylon, the "Statue", the Governments of the world, the Nations that come against God and Israel, RECEIVING her richly deserved plagues. So Rev. 18 is happening from the Seals to the Seventh Vial. 

4. Revelation 19 is predating Rev. 16 but ends when Rev. 16 ends. You agree that the Rapture is Pre-tribulation, so this is the Church in Heaven for the full Seven Years. We Marry the Lamb, then return and the Battle of Armageddon happens. Jesus gave us a clue about this in Matthew 24:28 when he said this: 28 "For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together." The Eagles are the Church  in Rev. 19, we will be where the carcass is at, and that will be the Marriage Feast. Amen. The Supper happens after the Return.

Rev. 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King Of Kings, And Lord Of Lords. 

17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the FOWLS (Eagles) that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; 18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

I agree with your 2 Thess. 2 is a bad translation. Its rather obvious when studied in depth.

WHAT is over? It is the 70th week that is over. The battle of ARmageddon is still future to chapter 16. Christ's coming is still future also. Jesus told me to find the entire 70th week "clearly marked" and told me how to find it. The same marker used for the exact midpoint would be used for the beginning and ending. (Yes, I heard His voice and His words. They sounded audible, but He was talking to me, so it was probably only to my spirit.)

I found that the exact midpoint was marked by a 7: the 7th trumpet. I rushed to the 7th vial and saw "it is done." I rushed to the 7th seal and saw the 30 minutes of silence. I knew then that I had found the entire 70th week "clearly marked."

You are free to disagree: many people do. But it is truth.

 

"Rev. 17 happens beginning in the 6th Chapter,"  When anyone writes something like this, I know they are mistaken. 

Read this again, and this time believe it for it is truth:

AXIOM ON REVELATION:  ANY theory that must rearrange John's God given chronology is immediately suspect and WILL BE proven wrong.

Your theory will most certainly be proven wrong. I suggest you dump it all into file 13 and start over.

Rev 6, up to the 5th seal is HISTORY to us. The first seal is the church sent out with the gospel. Seals 2-4 are to represent the devil's attempts to stop the advance of the gospel: but they were limited in their theater of operation to only 1/4 of the earth - the 1/4 centered on Jerusalem.  Obviously the devil failed: the gospel is everywhere now.

Seal five is the martyrs of the CHURCH AGE.

So NO, chapter 17 does not take place during the seals. That is not the way Revelation is written. The truth is, it fits perfect right after chapter 16 where the 70th week ends. Chapters 17 and 18 show us the kingdom of the Beast and its headquarters, Jerusalem, and then the destruction of the city.

You are totally mistaken in thinking that the first seal is the Antichrist. Go back and study chapters 4 & 5 which form the context for the first seals. Did you just read over chapter with and not understand what John is showing us? John got to see in vision form the very moment Jesus ascended into heaven and sent the Holy Spirit down. WHY would God shows us that? Very simple, so people would NOT imagine the first seal was the antichrist.

Jesus ascended around 32 AD. That is when He got the book and began breaking the seals. Sorry, my friend, but 32 AD is about 2000 years off from the timing of the Beast of Rev. 13. that is still future to us today.

"Revelation 19 is predating Rev. 16 but ends when Rev. 16 ends. " This is MYTH. You have no authority to rearrange John's book. And it is silly to do so, for it is in perfect order as written. Please, my friend, leave Revelation as written. Throw out all theories that must rearrange - for they are wrong.

"You agree that the Rapture is Pre-tribulation, so this [Rev. 19] is the Church in Heaven for the full Seven Years." Sorry, but no, it is not. There is no 7 years in this chapter. It is a flashbulb view, so to speak, of the throne room some short time after Babylon or Jerusalem has been destroyed.  It may then cover 30 days or so, for the marriage and supper.

" The Eagles are the Church  in Rev. 19, we will be where the carcass is at, and that will be the Marriage Feast. Amen. The Supper happens after the Return."  This is not only silly, it is SICK. Where they eating dead humans when Jesus turned the water into wine? I will agree it will be a feast for the birds. But it is in NO WAY the marriage feast that will take place in heaven. You astound me! You also disappoint me.

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8 hours ago, wingnut- said:

 

The fact that you do not know Greek is the issue here, which is why falling away is lost on you.  It is not harpazo, no matter how hard you try to make it say what you want.  Thank goodness you are not responsible for my understanding is all I can say, I am glad I know the difference.  As I have said before, I cannot have a serious conversation with you when you try to redefine words.

God bless

Again you refuse to answer. My guess is, you don't want to answer it, for then you will have to admit something you don't want to admit. I am using PAUL's word: Apostasia which is translated as a departing. Later it was mistranslated as a falling away. By the way, did you ever study that word Apostasia? If you know Greek, then you KNOW it is a compound word. Do you know what "apo" means?

Strongs tells us it is separation: departing or fleeing:

of separation of a part from the whole:  where of a whole some part is taken

I may not know Greek, but I can read. This is EXACTLY what will happen at the rapture: of a whole, some part will be taken and separated from the rest. It will be a separation.

The other part of the word means stationary, or not moving. The rapture will take place SO FAST, of the whole who will be at that moment motionless or stationary, a part will be separated and taken.  So when the early translators wrote about a very significant departing, they were describing the rapture.

Again I ask you: in verse 3b is the man of sin revealed or not revealed?

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54 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Again you refuse to answer. My guess is, you don't want to answer it, for then you will have to admit something you don't want to admit. I am using PAUL's word: Apostasia which is translated as a departing. Later it was mistranslated as a falling away. By the way, did you ever study that word Apostasia? If you know Greek, then you KNOW it is a compound word. Do you know what "apo" means?

Strongs tells us it is separation: departing or fleeing:

of separation of a part from the whole:  where of a whole some part is taken

I may not know Greek, but I can read. This is EXACTLY what will happen at the rapture: of a whole, some part will be taken and separated from the rest. It will be a separation.

The other part of the word means stationary, or not moving. The rapture will take place SO FAST, of the whole who will be at that moment motionless or stationary, a part will be separated and taken.  So when the early translators wrote about a very significant departing, they were describing the rapture.

Again I ask you: in verse 3b is the man of sin revealed or not revealed?

 

You can talk in circles around this all day long if you so desire, but your entire argument is flawed.  If it was the catching away, Paul would have used the word harpazo, the fact that he does not disproves your claim.  There is a huge difference between departing or fleeing versus catching away.  You basically call my understanding into question of a language I do understand, and worse than that, you call into question individuals whose understanding of Greek surpasses my own.  My understanding is that I can trust the Word of God, whilst you call it a bad translation to support a theory.  Hence, why I am more than happy to have the understanding I do.

The man of sin is revealed after the falling away as the verse states, and the falling away has absolutely nothing to do with the catching away.  The parable from Mark makes that perfectly clear, and anyone capable of reading can see that clearly.

 

Mark 4:13 And he said to them, “Do you not understand this parable? How then will you understand all the parables? 14 The sower sows the word. 15 And these are the ones along the path, where the word is sown: when they hear, Satan immediately comes and takes away the word that is sown in them. 16 And these are the ones sown on rocky ground: the ones who, when they hear the word, immediately receive it with joy. 17 And they have no root in themselves, but endure for a while; then, when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately they fall away. 18 And others are the ones sown among thorns. They are those who hear the word, 19 but the cares of the world and the deceitfulness of riches and the desires for other things enter in and choke the word, and it proves unfruitful. 20 But those that were sown on the good soil are the ones who hear the word and accept it and bear fruit, thirtyfold and sixtyfold and a hundredfold.”

 

Now if you want to sit here and argue that the ones sown on the rocky ground that depart from His word when troubles arise are going to be raptured away, then you really need to go back to the beginning of Revelation and read what is said to the 7 CHURCHES.

 

Revelation 2:4 But I have this against you, that you have abandoned the love you had at first. 5 Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent, and do the works you did at first. If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent. 6 Yet this you have: you hate the works of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate. 7 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who conquers I will grant to eat of the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.’

 

Revelation 3:10 Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth. 11 I am coming soon. Hold fast what you have, so that no one may seize your crown. 12 The one who conquers, I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God. Never shall he go out of it, and I will write on him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down from my God out of heaven, and my own new name.

 

Here are just two of them as samples, and I included the only one you seem to acknowledge as existing because I think it addresses this fairly well as to your contradiction.  Notice how this church kept His word about patient endurance?  What was it the seed on the rocky soil failed to do?  Hint:  they failed to endure, when tribulation or persecution arose they FELL AWAY.  Now please, explain this in regards to your position.

God bless

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With all the differences we have reading the same Word,can you'll not see what the millennium is all about?

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