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Matthew 24: Rapture, Second Coming or Both?


rollinTHUNDER

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3 hours ago, inchrist said:

Change not removal, the stones werent taken out of the way, the stones came into existence as bread.

Try as you may, you can not change the nature of the word GINOMAI to force fit it to mean removal, there is a perfectly greek word for removal  exairo 

Big Difference, between the word used in 2 Thess 2:7 is G1096  ginomai  NOT G1808 exairo.

When the stones were changed into break, the word ginomai was not used. My only point was, they BECAME bread.  They did not become "out of the way." We could also say they "were to be made" into bread a moment before it happened.

 

4 hours ago, inchrist said:

If you wish to violate grammatic rules, Im sure anything is possible....

Sorry, no rules violated. It was Paul that gave us both "it" and "He" for the same thing.

 

4 hours ago, inchrist said:

Thats handling the word of God to you? Rightly dividing the word of God...is to use your imagination?

If you cannot get it any other way, why not? The point is, end up understanding the intent of the Author. Many times human reasoning will not end up with His intended meaning.

 

4 hours ago, inchrist said:

Breaking exegesis rules.

Not really. The theory we end up with after study must fit the entire passage. Sorry, but "the falling away" does not.  Therefore I have to reject the KJV in this verse. I know that behind the word Apostasia is the one restraining being removed from the midst.

 

4 hours ago, inchrist said:

This is just such a horrible approach to scripture. I think the most damaging thing here, is you actually believe your technique is scriptual. 

Why is it not scriptural to look at EVERY meaning a word might have? Some translators, not understanding the author's intent of the entire passage may choose a wrong meaning that does not fit the entire passage, such as "the falling away."

 

4 hours ago, inchrist said:

Paul's then breaks it down in verse 7 from prophetic events holding back the day of the Christ ( in other words prophecy that needs to be fulfilled first and then also to the specific individual who is holding it back, the day of Christ.

Events leading up to the antichrist and the antichrist himself is what is preventing the day of the lord, Christ can not come until certain events take place first. 

I doubt seriously if we will ever see this passage the same way.

4 hours ago, inchrist said:

And? You dont think the Holy Spirit has empowered all of us?  What would you like to do with that information? Are you implying that only pretribs have the holy spirit? Or that if one sees the holy spirit in 2Th2 has the holy spirit?

No, in fact, all born again believers have not received this empowerment, for they want to skip over Acts 1 and 2 and pretend it is not there. You see, this is why the Holy Spirit came on teh day of Pentecost. Not for the born again walk, for they were already born again, but to give them the mighty baptism in the Holy Spirit. Much of the church world today rejects this aspect of the Holy Spirit.

It will be in this aspect that He leaves with the church at the pretrib rapture. It will be on earth just as it was the day before Pentecost. Only it will be the 70th week of Daniel.

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On 7/2/2017 at 1:45 PM, fixerupper said:

How would Christians and the holy spirit DETAIN or hold back the emergence of the man of sin?  How is it possible?  

The man of sin isn't a global dictator.  The 'man of sin' may even be the false prophet in 2 Thes. 2.  There's more than ONE evil end-time man coming.  

The word detain is used twice.  Withholdeth and letteth are the same word.  Before Paul says, "For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way."

He says,"Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

This means that what's holding back the man of sin is an apostasy.  The question then becomes, "who or what is it that needs to be taken out of the way for the evil one to come?"

I say Baghdadi needs to be taken out of the way.  When he's gone, the man of sin, whoever he may be will fill the void.  The region of the Middle-East esp. Iraq and region will unite into some sort of 10/7 alliance.  The region is currently in the prophesied apostasy.   

There is no Apostasy of the Church being spoken of its the DEPARTING of the Church. Nowhere is FAITH mentioned, but the GATHERING TOGETHER OF THE CHURCH (Rapture is)..........Thus the one who blocks is the Holy Spirit........................

Thus the Restrainer is the Holy Spirit which is omnipotent. 

The problem is the Restrainer (Holy Spirit) is not THE WHAT that is being spoken of in 2 Thess. 2 that is the Church. The Holy Spirit is then spoken of in passing. Let me demonstrate.

6 And now ye know WHAT (CHURCH) withholdeth that HE (ANTI-CHRIST) might be revealed in his time.

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only HE ( HOLY SPIRIT) who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

The "What" in verse 6 is not speaking about the Holy Spirit but the Church. Paul says now you now WHAT, its the Body of Christ which must be "Gathered together unto the Lord" before the Anti-Christ can come forth. The word apostisia means depart or departed, not falling away. The Subject is the Church Departing before the Anti-Christ can come forth.

The He is verse 7 is of course the Holy Spirit, he BLOCKS the Anti-Christ from coming forth, until He is TAKEN OUT OF THE WAY. Which doesn't mean he will leave the earth, it means he will be told by God to take away the Road Block so to speak. He is a Road Block to Satan's plans until God decides to allow the plans to come forth, then the Holy Spirit is told to get out of his way.

 

Edited by Revelation Man
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19 hours ago, warrior12 said:

How do you separate the people who makes up False religion and the governments of the world.  Is not people that constitutes both.   You said False religion is killed off, then who are the people that is left to make up the false government.  You incorporate those who do not have religious affiliations like atheist as a form of religion, so if all is killed off , where is the people that makes up or run this government  of the world comes from.   It is a stickler that i am  trying to comprehend from your writings. 

Rev. 17:16 is the Key.......16 And the ten horns (Government) which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore (Harlot), and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.

The Governments (Statue of Daniel 2) have for 1000's of Years welcomed False Religions as a part of their TEAM, thus the Harlot Rode the Beast in verse 7, but now this Anti-Christ/Beast wants to be worshiped as a MAN-GOD, there is no place for Islam or any religion in his world, thus the 10 KINGS in league with the Beast, kill the Harlot. 

They will worship this man as GOD, not such a far cry from what Atheists, some scientists, the Green movement, The Elitists do now, they worship MANKIND, its called Humanism and that's what they are teaching our kids in colleges all over today. So they will worship a Man as God. 

You are missing ONE ASPECT, the false Religions will be Judged and killed of by the Anti-Christ, but he isn't going to kill off those that worship and serve him, that's what the Plagues of God are for, to kill off Babylon (World Governments) and those that took the Mark of the Beast. (Final False Religion). 

The whole World man, that is Babylon, all those that partake of the Mark of the Beast hate God. Look around, your average Evolutionist/Scientist will be one of those Humanist worshipers, as will all Atheists, as will people like these famed Scientists and Debaters who profess there is no God. They are all over the world. just look at these GREEN, Climate Change people, they actually believe those lies. Look at the vast hate for all things Christian today, its like they have a phobia.

 

 

Edited by Revelation Man
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3 hours ago, Davida said:

Sorry , I think that you do not understand. This is the Restrainer-the helper, the Holy Spirit. HE stays with the Bride.  He is the Holy Spirit that is in the true believers , it is the Restrainer that is holding back the man of lawlessness -the Anti-Christ.  The Restrainer will be removed when the Bride of Christ is raptured- then the Tribulation will begin.

2 Thess 2:6 , 7 "5Do you not remember that I told you these things while I was still with you? 6And you know what is now restraining him, so that he will be revealed at the proper time. 7For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work, but the one who now restrains it will continue until he is taken out of the way.…"

For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth [will let], until....

he be taken out of the way....is a bad translation.  

The Greek interlinear uses the word IT!
it-MAY-BE-BECOMING
http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/2th2.pdf

Vines says about the words, "he be taken." OR "ginomai"

"to become, to come to be," is rendered "he be taken" in 2Th 2:7, lit., "(until) he, or it, become" (for a treatment of the whole passage see Notes on Thess. by Hogg and Vine).

IT is the correct translation.  Does that sound like the holy spirit?

Edited by fixerupper
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12 hours ago, Davida said:

Sorry , I think that you do not understand. This is the Restrainer-the helper, the Holy Spirit. HE stays with the Bride.  He is the Holy Spirit that is in the true believers , it is the Restrainer that is holding back the man of lawlessness -the Anti-Christ.  The Restrainer will be removed when the Bride of Christ is raptured- then the Tribulation will begin.

2 Thess 2:6 , 7 "5Do you not remember that I told you these things while I was still with you? 6And you know what is now restraining him, so that he will be revealed at the proper time. 7For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work, but the one who now restrains it will continue until he is taken out of the way.…"

The Holy Spirit is omnipotent. He can be with the Bride in Heaven and on earth at the same time. You guys are reading the passage Wrong imho !! Its the Holy Spirit that BLOCKS the Anti-Christ from coming forth until the Church is Raptured, then the Holy Spirit will QUIT BLOCKING. In other words lets look at this in another way:

I have 100 endangered Animals (CHURCH) in a section that's being Dynomited for a through road. The Government Agency buts a road block up that says no Dynomiting until further notice. Once those endangered critters are removed, then the Road Block can be removed. 

The Holy Spirit is a Road Block, and he will not allow the Anti-Christ to come forth until the Church is Removed. This has nothing to do with the Holy Spirit being Removed, he is just BLOCKING and his Road Block will be removed. All of the Plagues will be brought forth by the Holy Spirit, of course. 

Edited by Revelation Man
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1 hour ago, Revelation Man said:

The Holy Spirit is omnipotent. He can be with the Bride and on earth. You guys are reading the passage Wrong? Its the Holy Spirit that BLOCKS the Anti-Christ from coming forth until the Church s Raptured, then the Holy Spirit will QUIT BLOCKING. In other words lets look at this in another way:

I have 100 endangered Animals (CHURCH) in a section that's being Dynomited for a through road. The Government Agency buts a road block up that says no Dynomiting until further notice. Once those endangered critters are removed, then the Road Block can be removed. 

The Holy Spirit is a Road Block, and he will not allow the Anti-Christ to come forth until the church is Removed. This has nothing to do with the Holy Spirit being Removed, he is just BLOCKING and his Road Block will be removed. All of the Plagues will be brought fot by the Holy Spirit, of course. 

That's plausible.  Some people say this restrainer is Michael the Archangel who fights the battles in spiritual realms.  So it is plausible the restrainer is a spiritual force labeled "IT" and Michael labeled (one) or HE  That idea has been around for a while.  Michael and his hoards fight Lucifer and his hoards in the spirit realms.  

CLOSE-KEEP ALREADY IS-IN-ACTING OF THE UN-LAWness ONLY THE one-DOWN-HAVING at-PRESENT TILL OUT OF-MIDst it MAY-BE-BECOMING. 

I haven't made my mind up on this one yet. 

Edited by fixerupper
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The pre-tribbers  will stop at nothing short of saying the Bible is wrong and they know better than the ones that wrote it what they want to hear. 

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4 hours ago, inchrist said:

Yet no where is the Holy spirit mentioned, you guys are so inconsistent with your approach to this

The Restrainer is mentioned as one who ALLOWS.....That can only be God via the Holy Spirit. 

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6 hours ago, Davida said:

I agree with those that believe it is the Holy Spirit that indwells the Believers that is acting as the restraining force preventing the "the lawless one" to be revealed. After the Rapture of the Church , the Restraining influence of the Holy Spirit within the Church is "taken out of the way"  at that time when the Bride is caught up to meet the Bride Groom in the air. When the Restrainer is taken out of the way at the Rapture,  the man of lawlessness/ the Anti-Christ will appear on the world stage. 

The work of Regeneration of the Holy Spirit never stops. The Holy Spirit will still be at work on the earth- because of course as no one can be saved without the work of the Holy Spirit...  The Holy Spirit will still be sent and indwell those who accept Christ during the Tribulation. The Holy Spirit's work of Regeneration never ceases, and will continue to occur for the born again believers who come to Christ during the Tribulation- the tribulation saints. The Holy Spirit will still engage believer ministries during the Tribulation and the Holy Spirit will be present to aid tribulation Believers.  The Bible says in Rev 7:9-14 that a great multitude that no one could number will come out of the great tribulation. A Great Multitude from Every Nation...

Rev 7:9-14 "9 After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 10 and crying out with a loud voice, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!” 11 And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures, and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying, “Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might be to our God forever and ever! Amen.”

13 Then one of the elders addressed me, saying, “Who are these, clothed in white robes, and from where have they come?” 14 I said to him, “Sir, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation. They have washed their robes and made them white min the blood of the Lamb."

 

Very good. That's exactly what the Scriptures teaches.

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7 hours ago, Davida said:

 

duplicate post

Edited by Swords99
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