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Matthew 24: Rapture, Second Coming or Both?


rollinTHUNDER

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7 hours ago, iamlamad said:

One thing is sure: God is not going to set any appointments for us with His wrath. If you wish to set your own, go ahead on. I believe God will honor it.

The verses God's Wrath are found in are simple to understand.  You have taken the pre-trib fabrication method to misunderstand them, I use the face value method.

And I keep telling you that the verses you guys quote about God's Wrath all say it's averted by Christ through repentance, NOT a rapture. However, Christians are removed before His wrath comes in the vials, but that's at the end of triblation NOT before.  

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14 hours ago, Swords99 said:

God spared a very small remnant in Noah and his family.

I don't see anything in the Bible about God protecting anyone during the Tribulation except for a third of the Jews. Again, a small remnant.

I'm going to tell you AGAIN...

You would if you're mentors hadn't misled you and misinterpreted Revelation 3:10....

Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

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7 hours ago, iamlamad said:

For those who go  at the pretrib rapture, THEY will be kept from what is coming, because they will have escaped. Some who are left behind will also escape, for God will protect them. My guess is, they are Jews who will flee.

That's what pre-trib is, one big fabricated guess!

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19 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Let's read it in another translation.

Kenneth Wuest expanded version:

 5–7            Do you not remember that while I was still with you I kept on telling you these things? And now you know with a positive assurance that which [namely, the departure of the Church, the saints being assembled together to the Lord] is preventing his being disclosed [as to his true identity] in his strategic, appointed time, for the mystery of the aforementioned lawlessness is now operating. Only He [the Holy Spirit] who is holding [the lawlessness] down, [will do so] until He goes out from the midst [of humanity].

No doubt Wuest put his pre-trib slant to it.  And what a bad interpretation!  I'm glad I burned his three books, Word Studies in the Greek New Testament.  That's as fabricated an interpretation I've ever seen and an outright preversion of the word!  It's NOT a departure of the church that's preventing him from being disclosed, it's an APOSTASY that must come first! 

And you talk about 'spoonfeeding.'

2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 

The 'parousia and the gathering'!  All in one verse AND NOT 7 years apart!

Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;  

Wuest is way off the mark by saying that the phrase, "for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed," indicates a that the departure of the church and the saints being assembled together to the Lord is preventing the anti-Christ being disclosed.  That's a flagrant fabrication AND PERVERSION because the text is absoltely clear that what's WITHHOLDING' the man of sin is an APOSTASY NOT a rapture.  READ IT AT FACE VALUE!

According to Wuest, the word AND...
Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 
...would  mean the parousia or coming of the Lord is also withholding him!  OH!  I forgot!  He puts a seven year space between the two.  That means one thing, he doesn't know or disregards the definition of the word AND.  Apostasia is a noun and an event!  The noun 'apostasia' is used twice in the NT.  Here in 2 Thes. 2 and in Acts 21:21.

Now let me show you just how bad Mr. Wuest interpretation is...

"for that day shall not come,"

What day? ......................................... The coming of Christ and our gathering.

EXCEPT....................................................

Means UNLESS.  It also denies something, whether it's an object or an opinion.  In this verse, it denies everything other than the Lord's return and the gathering.

The coming of Christ and our gathering doesn't happen UNLESS/UNTIL........

 .....there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, 

How difficult is that?  An apostasy and revelation of the man of sin come FIRST, AND THEN the Lord's return and gathering occur!

Paul is simply saying that a 'falling away' and revelation of the 'man of sin' come FIRST OR BEFORE the coming of the Lord and the gathering!  It's plain and simple but pre-tribbers have to change this because the true meaning of the text clearly debunks pre-trib.

According to Mr. Wuest, he is saying that...
"the departure of the Church, the saints being assembled together to the Lord]
is preventing his being disclosed [as to his true identity]"

 Wuest IS INTERPRETING THE PORTION,..."THAT DAY SHALL NOT COME" AS...

THE COMING AND GATHERING CANNOT COME UNTIL THERE'S A GATHERING.

THAT'S A PERVERSION OF SCRIPTURE FABRICATED TO FIT PRE-TRIB AND THE MAN DOESN'T CARE HOW FOOLISH IT IS.

Pre-tribbers pervert the words of Jesus in Mathew 24, and they pervert the words of Paul in 2 Thes. 2.  

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Quote

HUMANISM is the Religion of the Beast, if he desires a MAN to be worshiped as God. 

I said,
Babylon is Babylon, it's not the whole world.  Lets see, humanist worshippers, Atheist, scientist, evolutionist, the green movement,...
HOW IN THE WORLD DO YOU COME UP WITH THIS STUFF?  Oh, I remember, your mentors.

You said,

Quote

This kind of silliness is why I stopped replying to you, you need to grow up.  You can't get it and you probably never will until you quit with the barbs. 

Don't expect me to accept your distorted way of thinking.  Why don't you just grow up and show me how you come up with this stuff?  How do you arrive at that conclusion?  I know what you believe IS ALSO BELIEVED by others who have fallen for it!  It's not a new theory!  All I ask of you is to show me how you come up with this HUMANISM end-time religion of yours?  Where's the scriptural evidence found in end-time prophecy?

If you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen, and you grow up, and give me scriptural EVIDENCE big guy!

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1 hour ago, fixerupper said:

No doubt Wuest put his pre-trib slant to it.  And what a bad interpretation!  I'm glad I burned his three books, Word Studies in the New Testament.  That's as fabricated an interpretation I've ever seen and an outright preversion of the word!  It's NOT a departure of the church that's preventing him from being disclosed, it's an APOSTASY that must come first! 

And you talk about 'spoonfeeding.'

2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 

The 'parousia and the gathering'!  All in one verse AND NOT 7 years apart!

Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;  

Wuest is way off the mark by saying that the phrase, "for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed," indicates a that the departure of the church and the saints being assembled together to the Lord is preventing the anti-Christ being disclosed.  That's a flagrant fabrication AND PERVERSION because the text is absoltely clear that what's WITHHOLDING' the man of sin is an APOSTASY NOT a rapture.  READ IT AT FACE VALUE!

According to Wuest, the word AND...
Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 
...would  mean the parousia or coming of the Lord is also withholding him!  OH!  I fordot!  He puts a sevn year space between the two.  That means one thing, he doesn't know or disregards the definition of the word AND.  .Apostasia is a noun and an event!  The noun 'apostasia' is twice in the NT.  Here in 2 Thes. 2 and in Acts 21:21.

Now let me show you just how bad Mr. Wuest interpretation is...

"for that day shall not come,"

What day? ......................................... The coming of Christ and our gathering.

EXCEPT....................................................

Means UNLESS.  It also denies something, whether it's an object or an opinion.  In this verse, it denies everything other than the Lord's return and the gathering.

The coming of Christ and our gathering doesn't happen UNLESS/UNTIL........

 .....there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, 

How difficult is that?  An apostasy and revelation of the man of sin come FIRST, AND THEN the Lord's return and gathering occur!

Paul is simply saying that a 'falling away' and revelation of the 'man of sin' come FIRST OR BEFORE the coming of the Lord and the gathering!  It's plain and simple but pre-tribbers have to change this because the true meaning of the text clearly debunks pre-trib.

According to Mr. Wuest, he is saying that...
"the departure of the Church, the saints being assembled together to the Lord]
is preventing his being disclosed [as to his true identity]"

 Wuest IS INTERPRETING THE PORTION,..."THAT DAY SHALL NOT COME" AS...

THE COMING AND GATHERING CANNOT COME UNTIL THERE'S A GATHERING.

THAT'S A PERVERSION OF SCRIPTURE FABRICATED TO FIT PRE-TRIB AND THE MAN DOESN'T CARE HOW FOOLISH IT IS.

Pre-tribbers pervert the words of Jesus in Mathew 24, and they pervert the words of Paul in 2 Thes. 2.  

Correct fixerupper !!!!!

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8 hours ago, n2thelight said:

So you all do go through the trib?

No, Matthew did not know or understand the Rapture, that was given to Paul. The Books in the bible had no Chapters or verses. It probably goes with chapter 25 more than 24.  Or maybe it was a story on its own, maybe it should have been another chapter. The facts are it is the Rapture. Whether Matthew misunderstood and thought it went after the Second coming or around the same time as the Second coming, or if it went with the next story, which was the 10 Virgins of Matthew 25. 

 

 

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1 hour ago, ENOCH2010 said:

Correct fixerupper !!!!!

NO IS IS NOT.................SMH

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2 hours ago, fixerupper said:

I said,
Babylon is Babylon, it's not the whole world.  Lets see, humanist worshippers, Atheist, scientist, evolutionist, the green movement,...
HOW IN THE WORLD DO YOU COME UP WITH THIS STUFF?  Oh, I remember, your mentors.

You said,

Just because you said doesn't mean it is true. Lets follow scriptures instead of your word....

The Nations are Gathered to Meggido for the battle of Armageddon in Rev. 16 at the 6th Vial. Then the 7th Vial is poured out and what happens? Jesus lands on the Mt of Olives (Zechariah 14) and an earthquake hits...BOOM.

REVELATION 16:19 And the great city was divided (JESUS/EARTHQUAKE) into three parts(JERUSALEM), and the cities of the nations fell(BABYLON: SEE NEXT SENTENCE): and GREAT BABYLON came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

So God doesn't see the Nations of the WORLD as Babylon hey? Well this Scripture disagrees with you. The Nations that FALL are seen as Babylon. 

Now lets go to Rev. 14, the Harvest where the Evil Minions of the world are placed into the Great Winnepress. 

Revelation 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion,(Rev. 16. Vial number 7 BOOM): and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication. 9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, 10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

No one city made all the world corrupt. Its the Spirit of THIS WORLD represented by Babylon the Head of Gold, the Statue which God will SMASH at the end of time. I am giving it to you and you are pretending you understand something which its evident you don't. 

Revelation 14:18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. 19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. 20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

This is the same passage as Rev. 16, the Battle of Armageddon, God sees the Harvest of the Evil people as Babylon....See Babylon has Fallen, has Fallen in verse 8. 

Revelation 18:1 And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory. 2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird. 3 For ALL NATIONS have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies. 4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

Translation....Again the Angel says Babylon is Fallen, of course Rev. 14, 16 and 18 is the SAME EVENT. Rev. 18 is the Seals, Trumpets and Vials raining down on earth. This starts WHEN? Well the Seals start at the MIDWAY POINT when the Anti-Christ comes Forth. So does that Match the above verses? Of course, Babylon has become he Habitation of DEVILS !! When does this come to pass? Well when does Micheal Stand Up and cast Satan out of Heaven? Of Course, we see it in Rev. 12, the MIDWAY POINT. So of course Babylon (The World) has become the Habitation of Devils. DING, DING, DING. For ALL NATIONS....Not Babylon proper or Rome, or NYC, but ALL NATIONS have drink from her troth. Its the WHOLE WORLD, of course. The Merchants of what? THE EARTH !! 

Then the Angel says Come out of her MY PEOPLE, don't partake in her sins lest you receive of her PLAGUES......Who could this possibly be? Remember its at the MIDWAY POINT !! Oh, its Israel, who flees at the Midway point, BOOM. Come out of her means Flee to the Wilderness where I (God) will protect thee.

Rev. 18:8 Therefore shall her plagues come in one day (Day of the Lord a 3.5 Year period), death, and mourning, and famine (YOU CAN'T GET FAMINE IN ONE EARTH DAY); and she shall be utterly burned with fire (The Trumpets burn the Trees and Grasses and more Fire is cast to earth later): for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her. 9 And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her (The Kings HATED the Harlot bu CRY HERE) , and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning, (Of Course the Kings Cry and Lament, there world is ablaze, there cities are burning).

Rev. 18:10 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come. 11 And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more:

Of course they are trying to hide from the plague. The Merchants can't sell, I wonder why? Well the Seals, Trumpets and Vials have CONSEQUENCES don't they? 

From what I see you are all over the place on Eschatology. 

 

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6 hours ago, fixerupper said:

No doubt Wuest put his pre-trib slant to it.  And what a bad interpretation!  I'm glad I burned his three books, Word Studies in the New Testament.  That's as fabricated an interpretation I've ever seen and an outright preversion of the word!  It's NOT a departure of the church that's preventing him from being disclosed, it's an APOSTASY that must come first! 

And you talk about 'spoonfeeding.'

2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 

The 'parousia and the gathering'!  All in one verse AND NOT 7 years apart!

I do doubt that very much. First, it would be dishonest. I doubt if he would be dishonest. It is only YOUR opinion it is a bad translation. I don't think it is. It very much agrees with many other's translations. But it is an expanded translation

Departure / apostasy?  Surely you know that the first translations into English used the world "Departing." Why? Because that is a good translation of the Greek word, apostasia. The bad translation is the KJV.  Now, your preconceptions may cause you to hyperventilate over "departing" as a translation, but it is probably the right word.  Please note, the Greek does NOT SAY what is being departed from. We must ascertain that from the context.

Don't get apoplexy! The coming and the gathering happen almost simultaneously.  No one is saying 7 years except you. the problem is, you are trying to force all "coming" scriptures into one single coming after the 70th week. It is like trying to force a square peg into a round hole - it simply does not fit.

In 1 Thes 4, Paul tells us that Jesus comes - but it is not the Rev. 19 coming. It is an invisible coming. After Jesus rose, not one unbeliever saw Him - ONLY believers saw Him. I think it will be this way for His coming FOR his bride: no one will see Him except His bride.

You are close though, on the 7 years. After Jesus comes FOR his bride, it will be over 7 years before He comes WITH His bride.

6 hours ago, fixerupper said:

That's a flagrant fabrication AND PERVERSION because the text is absoltely clear that what's WITHHOLDING' the man of sin is an APOSTASY NOT a rapture.  READ IT AT FACE VALUE!

Now it is YOU who are reading into a scripture what is not there. There is a difference between apostasy and the Greek apostasia. The English apostasy is "the abandonment or renunciation of a religious or political belief." For the Greek, apostasia does not include any meaning at all about what is being departed from. If Paul meant a departure from the faith, he would have had to include the word faith. But all we have is a departure from SOMETHING.

Next, in Paul's argument is must be a VERY SIGNIFICANT departure and one he had previously talked about when he was there. We KNOW He talked about a very significant departing in 1 thes. 4. But there is nothing about a very significant falling away (from what we don't know) in Paul's first letter.  Sorry, but a falling away does not seem to meet the test of context: how would anyone know if ENOUGH people had fallen away? On the other hand, everyone would know that the rapture had taken place.

Next, you must assume that the gathering is hidden in Paul's mention of the Day of the Lord, which is a HUGE assumption. If it is not there, then Paul never gets to the very THEME of this passage. But if the Departing is the rapture, then he has covered his theme.

Next, please explain how a falling away, something evil in itself, can restrain evil. Common sense would tell us that if all the believers fell away, nothing would hinder his revealing.

Next, you will have to explain both the neuter gender and the male gender for what ever or who ever this restrainer is.

Finally, please explain to us how this is so "absolutely clear" what is doing the restraining.  Personally I think it is silly to imagine that evil can restrain evil. Jesus said if a house is divided against itself, it will fall.

7 hours ago, fixerupper said:

by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 

I don't know why the AND bothers you: Paul makes it VERY CLEAR there is a coming involved in the catching up.  I look at it this way: His coming is the trigger for the dead in Christ to rise, and the dead in Christ is the trigger for Paul's sudden destruction which I believe is an earthquake. And this earthquake, according to Paul, is the start of the Day of the Lord, and according to John is the start of the Day of His wrath.  So His coming will be the trigger for the rapture, and the Day of the Lord. this makes sense because both come "as a thief in the night."

 

7 hours ago, fixerupper said:

The noun 'apostasia' is twice in the NT.  Here in 2 Thes. 2 and in Acts 21:21.

You missed a very important point: in Acts Luke said WHAT was being departed from: Moses.

 

7 hours ago, fixerupper said:

Now let me show you just how bad Mr. Wuest interpretation is...

"for that day shall not come,"

What day? ......................................... The coming of Christ and our gathering.

No! Here you left the clear writing: It is your preconceptions adding: what day is the day Paul said, the DAy of the Lord (or the Day of Christ - depending on the Greek text used to translate).  You must assume that the Day of the Lord (from the Old Testament a very dark and terrible day) is indeed speaking of the rapture.) I don't think so. I think it is speaking more of the great earthquake of which John wrote "the day of His wrath has come." Therefore I think it is you who is error here, NOT Wuest.

 

7 hours ago, fixerupper said:

The coming of Christ and our gathering doesn't happen UNLESS/UNTIL........

 .....there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, 

Now your preconceptions are CHANGING the meaning. It is the Day of the LORD that does not or cannot come and be happening UNLESS the very significant apostasia or departing comes. Remember, they received a letter or a prophecy stating that the Day had started and they were IN IT. So Paul is showing them that what they heard and suppose is impossible. Before one can know for certain that the DAY has come, they must see the man of sin revealed. But he cannot and will not be revealed until the one restraining is taken out of the midst.

Did you just ignore this every time I have posted it? Apostasia is a compound Greek word. The APO in Strongs Greek concordance reads:

Separation
of the separation of apart from the whole; where of a whole some part is taken:

Please answer me on this: Does not this perfectly describe the rapture, where from the whole [population] a part [the Bride of Christ] is taken.  Do you think Paul might have known this?

7 hours ago, fixerupper said:

How difficult is that?  An apostasy and revelation of the man of sin come FIRST, AND THEN the Lord's return and gathering occur!

Again you have missed the written meaning: ONLY ONE THING must come "first." It is the departing.  His point, again is this: if someone sees the man of sin revealed they will then KNOW (no doubt whatsoever) that they are IN the Day of the Lord and it will have previously started.  So this departing must happen before the man of sin will be revealed.

 

7 hours ago, fixerupper said:

According to Mr. Wuest, he is saying that...
"the departure of the Church, the saints being assembled together to the Lord]
is preventing his being disclosed [as to his true identity]"

 Wuest IS INTERPRETING THE PORTION,..."THAT DAY SHALL NOT COME" AS...

THE COMING AND GATHERING CANNOT COME UNTIL THERE'S A GATHERING.

Preconceptions are in your way again! It is TRUTH that the man of sin cannot be revealed until the departing takes place. It is very likely that this departing is meant to be the departing of the church and the Holy Spirit's abilitly to use the church to restrain or hold down the e

 

vil one from being revealed until the right time.  Therefore Wuest is RIGHT ON in his translation. It is you who have missed it. It could read:

"That day  - that is the Day of the Lord (which is a dark day of judgment)  - cannot come until the one restraining or holding down has departed or is becoming out of the midst (taken out of the way.)

7 hours ago, fixerupper said:

Pre-tribbers pervert the words of Jesus in Mathew 24, and they pervert the words of Paul in 2 Thes. 2.  

Sorry, but the perversion I have seen has all been on your side of this discussion. I think you need to spend much more time on this passage.

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