How do the believers in Christ differ from Israel?

[Retrobyter]

On 7/15/2017 at 3:23 AM, Marilyn C said:

Hi wingnut,

Is Jesus a lion, a lamb, a door, a vine, an olive tree, a temple, etc. The tree of life, is a symbol, as are those others, to reveal some aspect of Christ. Now tell me, when Adam & Eve were sent from the garden, did they then have access to God as before? No, their sin made a barrier. No trees have life, only the Son, and He is a life-giving spirit.

`...The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.` (1 Cor. 15: 45) 

The `tree of life,` is a symbol to represent the life of Christ that all will have access to, in the New Heavens and New Earth.

Marilyn.

 

19 hours ago, Sister said:

Hi Wingnut

I see the tree of life being Christ also.

It's hard to explain but I'll try.

The tree of life in the garden was "the Word of God" before he was made flesh.

That tree was made of "spirit". (God's Word is spirit)

It was guarded by angels because in God's plans, no man could have access of this tree until the Word was made flesh, die and be risen again.  After Christ was resurrected, that tree was Christ.  It's the same Word of God, and if we eat of this tree we will find life.  Only Christ can give us to eat of this tree which is The Word of God.  The Word of God is still guarded.  Not just anyone can come and eat of the fruits, ie, receive all the treasures of wisdom that the Word teaches.  Christ, who goes straight through the heart, sees who are the real sheep, and he feeds them.  He doesn't give all these treasures to anyone, only the sincere.

So if we are sincere, we are eating of this tree now which is Christ, the Word of God.  After the resurrection, he will give us everything and open our understanding even more to continue eating of this tree forever.

That's how I understand it brother.

Shalom, Marilyn and Sister.

You both seem to have the same problem:

Marilyn, you said, "No trees have life, only the Son, and He is a life-giving spirit," and

Sister, you said, "The tree of life in the garden was 'the Word of God' before he was made flesh. That tree was made of 'spirit.' (God's Word is spirit)."

Now, recall, if you will, that the word "spirit" in the OT is the Hebrew word "ruwach" and in the NT is the Greek word "pneuma," both which mean "a wind." Make the simple substitution, and here's what you are saying:

Marilyn, you're really saying, "No trees have life, only the Son, and He is a life-giving WIND," and

Sister, you're really saying, "The tree of life in the garden was 'the Word of God' before he was made flesh. That tree was made of 'WIND.' (God's Word is WIND)."

You BOTH need to QUIT thinking that you must...
(1) "spiritually" discern the Scriptures and
(2) think that God's realm is a "spiritual realm!"

(1) To "spiritually" interpret the Scriptures is really called "allegorizing Scriptures," and it's a BAD practice to make one's habit! "To allegorize" is "to interpret the Scriptures symbolically or to represent the Scriptures symbolically." Contrary to the opinions of some, it is NOT the best route to understanding the Scriptures! 

When one is attempting to understand Scripture, one should begin with a grammatical, historical method of interpretation. That is, use the NORMAL grammar expected for that language, and check the wording of a passage against that book's historical background. While a normal work of literature will have SOME allegories and symbolism, it's just plain WRONG to think a text of Scripture is WHOLLY dedicated to allegories! Most of Scripture should be interpreted literally.

(2) While GOD is totally other than His Creation, that does NOT mean that there must be another realm foreign to that Creation. To the contrary, we are told in Scripture that we shall live forever on the New Earth and within the New Jerusalem. Now, I know the argument to have such a place exist for the "angels," but what you must also learn is that "angel" is a TRANSLITERATION of the Greek word "aggelos," and it simply means "messenger," whether human or superhuman. Even the author of Hebrews told us,

Hebrews 1:7
7 And of the angels (messengers) he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits (winds), and his ministers (servants) a flame of fire.
KJV

And, he also said,

Hebrews 1:13-14
13 But to which of the angels (messengers) said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
14 Are they not all ministering spirits (servicing winds), sent forth to minister (serve) for them who shall be heirs of salvation?
KJV

Therefore, they are all "servicing winds" sent forth to serve them who shall be heirs of the Rescue! THAT'S their function! Thus, they are linked directly to human beings. Why would they exist anywhere but close to human beings?

[Marilyn C]

1 hour ago, Retrobyter said:

 

(1) To "spiritually" interpret the Scriptures is really called "allegorizing Scriptures," and it's a BAD practice to make one's habit! "To allegorize" is "to interpet the Scriptures symbolically or to represent the Scriptures symbolically." Contrary to the opinions of some, it is NOT the best route to understanding the Scriptures! 

When one is attempting to understand Scripture, one should begin with a grammatical, historical method of interpretation. That is, use the NORMAL grammar expected for that language, and check the wording of a passage against that book's historical background. While a normal work of literature will have SOME allegories and symbolism, it's just plain WRONG to think a text of Scripture is WHOLLY dedicated to allegories! Most of Scripture should be interpreted literally.

 

Hi Retro,

I so agree that there is too much `allegorizing` of scripture. To me, I start with God`s purposes through Christ and then look at the context etc. So as to the `tree of Life` that is in the final summing up of God`s word - Revelation, the unveiling of Christ in all His glory, as He is known in the heavenly realms. To do that God the Father has used `signs` `to signified it` (1: 1) and used over 330 symbols, types, etc from the OT to reveal His Son to us. Thus I see the `tree of Life,` as a wonderful illustration for our minds to comprehend the fruitfulness of Christ`s life through - wisdom, hope, righteousness, faithfulness, patience, etc etc which we will all need - eternal life, actually, Christ`s life within us, forever fruitful.

Marilyn.

[Sister]

3 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Sister, you're really saying, "The tree of life in the garden was 'the Word of God' before he was made flesh. That tree was made of 'WIND.' (God's Word is WIND)."

Retro

That tree of life was made of spirit not wind.  God's Word is not "wind".  His Word is powerful, and can translate into anything God commands.

God has wisdom in his Word, and his Word gives life.  His Word did not give life until Christ was sent with authority to forgive sins.

And for the record angels are not "wind".  There are angels in charge of the "wind".  Angels were created out of fire, you can read in the book of Enoch.

The cup is too full here, everybody knows everything.  No one wants to learn anything new.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Sister]

20 hours ago, wingnut- said:

So then how did Enoch please God so much that He took him?  Enoch came between the garden and Christ coming in the flesh, impossible.  Not to mention you are now excluding all the OT saints, the prophets, etc.

wingnut

Iron sharpens iron. Lets not get into a heated debate about this because God wants to show us this, and also show us that we all don't know everything.  Knowledge has not come to an end, but never ends.  There's always something new to learn because the spirit is moving continually and filling us. We must keep humble about it, or else it will be taken away.  If we disagree in the end then so be it, but we can reason surely, out of a pure heart with that hunger for God's truth.  Not for the sake of arguing, which I hate.

In response to your question;

Enoch was taken up and shown so much.  He was revealed the Son of man in many visions, but he never experienced living in a world under Christ's ruling, ...he just saw far ahead into the future.   That doesn't mean he misses out, he will come back as one of the remnants, just like all the other prophets and Old Testament saints.  Enoch never died, so he is not resurrected, but preserved in one of the levels of heaven.

 John 14:2   In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

All the remnants of the OT will still receive the promises, but not first.  They will receive it last, after they are introduced to Christ and his teachings and walk in his ways according to the new covenant.

21 hours ago, wingnut- said:

No, we are not eating of that tree, you are not reading what is said in Genesis.

 

Genesis 3:22 Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil. Now, lest he reach out his hand and take also of the tree of life and eat, and live forever—” 23 therefore the Lord God sent him out from the garden of Eden to work the ground from which he was taken. 24 He drove out the man, and at the east of the garden of Eden he placed the cherubim and a flaming sword that turned every way to guard the way to the tree of life.

 

I just read over Genesis and noticed something I didn't notice before.  So this is fresh to me.

God told Adam there was only "one" tree that he could not eat of - the tree of knowledge of good and evil.  God never told Adam he could not eat of the tree of life.

Genesis 2:16   And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
Genesis 2:17   But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

No commandment to not eat of the tree of life?

So whilst Adam obeyed God, he must of been eating of that tree of life (spiritually)  He was taking in the righteousness of God "until" he sinned.  Only after Adam sinned, was the tree of life guarded by the cherubim.

We know why now, because after the first sin, man was appointed to die, but because of Jesus, man can come back from the grave and live forever.  Death will be conquered.

 

Quote

The tree of life was hidden for what reason?  So Adam and Eve could not eat of it and live forever, because they had sinned, and that sin required payment.  If the tree of life were Jesus then it would not have been removed, it is removed because from that point on the flesh was denied eternal life.  Otherwise God would have said to them, "Here, you better eat this fruit or your doomed."  It is completely contradictory to this gnostic approach which tries to steal God's glory and base salvation on the works of man.  As I said before, it is the same lie they fell for from the serpent in the first place.

That tree of life was suddenly guarded in a garden that Adam and Eve could never enter again.  I cannot find where it says the tree of life was hidden, only that it was guarded after they were sent out.

I should of read this first and gone over before I answered you the first time, but through this conversation, I have learn't something new, and praises be to God.

That tree of life is not hidden from man because it's a spiritual tree,  It's the Word of God, and we know the Word of God is Christ;

Revelation 19:13   And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

Christ, the Word of God is not coming back to take someone else's throne, for he was there, in that garden before man was made.  He was the first.

So back to the subject,

What's the point of guarding the tree of life if Adam cannot re-enter the premises?  Neither can anyone else.  No man has access to that garden.  Can you think of someone defiled who entered that garden and contaminated it?  Someone not made out of flesh?

There's our answer.  It's guarded from the prince of darkness and his host.  THEY CAN NEVER GET ACCESS to THAT TREE.  Nor can his seed, the children of Cain who remain with us today, who refuse life eternal.

 

 

Quote

Jesus IS NOT hidden from man, you did not have to get past cherubim and a flaming sword to get to Him.

No that's right.  Jesus has made himself available to all who want to know him, in fact he draws them.

Quote

I would also like to add this in here, if you are going to try and spiritualize the tree of life, then how do you handle the other tree from the garden?  What does the tree of knowledge of good and evil become?  Did the serpent cut little pieces off himself and say here Adam and Eve, have a little taste of the serpent so you can become like gods?

That tree of knowledge of good and evil taught them and us, that when we disobey God, and get found out, we learn to experience shame, and can see our nakedness.  Adam only knew what "good" was, but now he knows what "evil" is....that it exists when we do the opposite to what God commands.  Adam knows there is light and darkness now, good and bad, blessings and cursings, , and so do we.  God created opposites to everything, and knowing this, we are no longer innocent and have no excuses.

 

 

[Retrobyter]

12 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Retro,

I so agree that there is too much `allegorizing` of scripture. To me, I start with God`s purposes through Christ and then look at the context etc. So as to the `tree of Life` that is in the final summing up of God`s word - Revelation, the unveiling of Christ in all His glory, as He is known in the heavenly realms. To do that God the Father has used `signs` `to signified it` (1: 1) and used over 330 symbols, types, etc from the OT to reveal His Son to us. Thus I see the `tree of Life,` as a wonderful illustration for our minds to comprehend the fruitfulness of Christ`s life through - wisdom, hope, righteousness, faithfulness, patience, etc etc which we will all need - eternal life, actually, Christ`s life within us, forever fruitful.

Marilyn.

Shalom, Marilyn.

No, Marilyn, no. THAT'S allegorizing! The "tree of Life" is NOT just a "wonderful illustration for our minds to comprehend!" It's a REAL TREE, with leaves, branches, fruit, and a trunk! You could eat a picnic lunch in its shade! You will be able to reach up, grab, and eat one of its succulent fruits! You can spread its seeds abroad! It's not even MEANT to be an "illustration," "wonderful" or otherwise!

In the New Earth, things will happen with the SAME physical laws applying. Two objects will STILL not be able to occupy the same space at the same time, and if a person collides with another or some other object and is damaged in some way, "the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations!" That's not some "spiritual" healing; that's LITERAL, REAL, PHYSICAL healing! Just because one is immortal and incorruptible, that doesn't mean that one is impervious or that one is invincible! Accidents can still occur in a physical world!

In the New Earth, there will be mountains to climb, lakes and oceans in which to swim, deserts to cross, and swamps to explore! Every object on the face of this earth has a GLOBAL POSITION. There's an exact longitude and latitude and elevation for every tree, every bush, every blade of grass! Every mountain, every hill, every valley, every river, every stream has a NAME! We put the more popular ones on maps! Ones that we all share in reality and on maps are called "landmarks!" Several European countries share the Matterhorn, for instance, as a part of their own maps and derive their bearings from such landmarks.

The New Earth will be no different. I believe that is why the New Jerusalem shall be called just that. It will land with its center at the coordinates of the Old Jerusalem, 31 degrees 47 minutes N, 35 degrees 13 minutes E.

It's wrong to assume that everything in Revelation is symbolic. There's MUCH that is literal and should be taken that way.

[Retrobyter]

15 hours ago, Sister said:

Retro

That tree of life was made of spirit not wind.  God's Word is not "wind".  His Word is powerful, and can translate into anything God commands.

God has wisdom in his Word, and his Word gives life.  His Word did not give life until Christ was sent with authority to forgive sins.

And for the record angels are not "wind".  There are angels in charge of the "wind".  Angels were created out of fire, you can read in the book of Enoch.

The cup is too full here, everybody knows everything.  No one wants to learn anything new.

Shalom, Sister.

You're assuming that they are different, "spirit" and "wind." Then, tell me: What is "spirit?" From what is it made?

Here's what the Scriptures say:

Hebrews 1:13-14
13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?
KJV

The Greek says:

Pros Hebraious 1:13-14
13 Pros tina de toon aggeloon eireeken pote, Kathou ek dexioon mou heoos an thoo tous echthrous sou hupopodion toon podoon sou;
14 ouchi pantes eisin leitourgika pneumata, eis diakonian apostellomena dia tous mellontas kleeronomein sooteerian;
The UBS Greek New Testament

And those two words, "leitougika pneumata," are...

NT:3010 leitourgikos (li-toorg-ik-os'); from the same as NT:3008; functional publicly ("liturgic"); i.e. beneficient:
KJV - ministering.

NT:3008 leitourgeoo (li-toorg-eh'-o); from NT:3011; to be a public servant, i.e. (by analogy) to perform religious or charitable functions (worship, obey, relieve):
KJV - minister.

NT:3011 leitourgos (li-toorg-os'); from a derivative of NT:2992 and NT:2041; a public servant, i.e. a functionary in the Temple or Gospel, or (genitive case) a worshipper (of God) or benefactor (of man):
KJV - minister (-ed).

NT:2992 laos (lah-os'); apparently a primary word; a people (in general; thus differing from NT:1218, which denotes one's own populace):
KJV - people.

NT:2041 ergon (er'-gon); from a primary (but obsolete) ergoo (to work); toil (as an effort or occupation); by implication, an act:
KJV - deed, doing, labour, work.

NT:4151 pneuma (pnyoo'-mah); from NT:4154; a current of air, i.e. breath (blast) or a breeze; by analogy or figuratively, a spirit, i.e. (human) the rational soul, (by implication) vital principle, mental disposition, etc., or (superhuman) an angel, demon, or (divine) God, Christ's spirit, the Holy Spirit:
KJV - ghost, life, spirit (-ual, -ually), mind. Compare NT:5590.

NT:4154 pneoo (pneh'-o); a primary word; to breathe hard, i.e. breeze:
KJV - blow. Compare NT:5594.

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

And, please, DON'T put your eggs in the one basket of the book of Enoch! First of all, it was NOT written by the one in Genesis called "Enoch" (Chanokh), "seventh from Adam," nor was it written until the intertestamental times! It is NOT canonical nor is it inspired!

Regarding learning something new, I'd rather that people got back to learning what was OLD instead of all this new ... GARBAGE, like "going to heaven when we die!" That is NOT in the Scriptures, which ARE canonical and inspired by God!

It doesn't say in Heb. 1:13-14 above that they were in CONTROL of winds; it says that they ARE winds! "People-serving winds!" It says they were sent as deacons to people!

And, the Tree of Life was made from the EARTH, like all the other trees!

Genesis 1:11-13
11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.
12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.
KJV

Genesis 2:9
9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
KJV

Why must you contradict Scripture?

[Retrobyter]

To both Marilyn and Sister:

Don't let your search for the "spiritual" turn into superciliousness!

[Marilyn C]

1 hour ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Marilyn.

No, Marilyn, no. THAT'S allegorizing! The "tree of Life" is NOT just a "wonderful illustration for our minds to comprehend!" It's a REAL TREE, with leaves, branches, fruit, and a trunk! You could eat a picnic lunch in its shade! You will be able to reach up, grab, and eat one of its succulent fruits! You can spread its seeds abroad! It's not even MEANT to be an "illustration," "wonderful" or otherwise!

In the New Earth, things will happen with the SAME physical laws applying. Two objects will STILL not be able to occupy the same space at the same time, and if a person collides with another or some other object and is damaged in some way, "the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations!" That's not some "spiritual" healing; that's LITERAL, REAL, PHYSICAL healing! Just because one is immortal and incorruptible, that doesn't mean that one is impervious or that one is invincible! Accidents can still occur in a physical world!

In the New Earth, there will be mountains to climb, lakes and oceans in which to swim, deserts to cross, and swamps to explore! Every object on the face of this earth has a GLOBAL POSITION. There's an exact longitude and latitude and elevation for every tree, every bush, every blade of grass! Every mountain, every hill, every valley, every river, every stream has a NAME! We put the more popular ones on maps! Ones that we all share in reality and on maps are called "landmarks!" Several European countries share the Matterhorn, for instance, as a part of their own maps and derive their bearings from such landmarks.

The New Earth will be no different. I believe that is why the New Jerusalem shall be called just that. It will land with its center at the coordinates of the Old Jerusalem, 31 degrees 47 minutes N, 35 degrees 13 minutes E.

It's wrong to assume that everything in Revelation is symbolic. There's MUCH that is literal and should be taken that way.

Hi Retro,

I agree that the New Earth will be this earth made new. However....the New Jerusalem is made of heavenly `substance.` And it will reside in the lower heavens near the earth and bring light to it as the earth revolves. (Heb. 12: 22  &  Rev. 21: 2 & 23)

Marilyn.

[Retrobyter]

53 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Retro,

I agree that the New Earth will be this earth made new. However....the New Jerusalem is made of heavenly `substance.` And it will reside in the lower heavens near the earth and bring light to it as the earth revolves. (Heb. 12: 22  &  Rev. 21: 2 & 23)

Marilyn.

Shalom, Marilyn.

Again, what do the Scriptures say?

Revelation 21:9-21
9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.
10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,...

Please note that the messenger showed John the CITY and called it "the bride, the Lamb's wife." That means that the city is the bride (c --> b) ; it does NOT mean that the bride is the city (b -/-> c)! They are not equal (not b = c, but b =/= c); the CITY has the apellation. This is NOT talking about "the church."

11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious (a highly costly gemstone), even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;
12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:
13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.
14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
15 And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof.
16 And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.
17 And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.
18 And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass.
19 And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones.
The first foundation was jasper; (SiO₂ + Fe, O)
the second, sapphire; (Al₂O₃ + Ti, Fe) [or lapis lazuli - (Na, Ca)₈(AlSiO₄)₆(S, SO₄, Cl)_1-2]
the third, a chalcedony; (SiO₂)
the fourth, an emerald; (Be₃Al₂Si₆O₁₈)
20 The fifth, sardonyx; (SiO₂ - an agate)
the sixth, sardius; (sard or carnelian: SiO₂)
the seventh, chrysolite; (olivine: (Mg₂⁺, Fe₂⁺)₂SiO₄)
the eighth, beryl; (Be₃Al₂Si₆O₁₈) [aquamarine blue, colorless, yellow, red, or pink varieties]
the ninth, a topaz; (Al₂SiO₄(F, OH)₂) [yellow variety is considered the most valued]
the tenth, a chrysoprasus; (apple-green variety of chalcedony: SiO₂ + Ni₃Si₄O₁₀(OH)₂^. 4H₂O)
the eleventh, a jacinth; (zircon: (ZrSiO₄)
the twelfth, an amethyst. (SiO₂)

These are all VERY REAL gemstones that all have a hardness of 7 or better and exist in nature!

21 And the twelve gates were twelve pearls; every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass.
...
KJV

These are LITERAL, PHYSICAL gemstones, both precious and semi-precious! The materials also consist of very pure gold and pearls grown to enormous sizes. This is not fiction, and this is certainly not symbolic!

[Sister]

6 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

And, please, DON'T put your eggs in the one basket of the book of Enoch! First of all, it was NOT written by the one in Genesis called "Enoch" (Chanokh), "seventh from Adam," nor was it written until the intertestamental times! It is NOT canonical nor is it inspired!

Retro

These words spoken from your mouth is what you have sown in this field.  Just remember that.  You declared this during your walk.

6 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Genesis 1:11-13
11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.
12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.
KJV

Genesis 2:9
9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
KJV

So everything God made was good right!

...but after Adam sinned;

Genesis 3:17   And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

Genesis 3:18   Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;

Genesis 3:19   In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

If the ground is now cursed after Adam sinned, and now he has to eat of the ground all the days of his life,....and eat the herbs, and bread, then what was he eating before he sinned?

Don't you get curious? 

And please don't give me any Greek or Hebrew, we don't need that to understand this story.

 

 

 

Edited July 18, 2017 by Sister