How do the believers in Christ differ from Israel?

[Retrobyter]

9 hours ago, JohnD said:

I may have already replied to this thread (topic).  I tend to shy away from such a deep subject because it's not as simple as many presume, and they lack no insolence in ripping the mere messenger to bits rather than face and consider the scriptures revealed.

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Israel is both a physical entity and a spiritual entity. 

True Christianity is a spiritual entity.

That's the simplest way to put it.

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Israel (physical entity and spiritual entity):

Romans 9:6 (AV)
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

Romans 2:28–29 (AV)
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Deuteronomy 10:16 (AV)
16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.

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There is no doubt or lack of scriptures I could quote (from even the lips of the Lord Jesus himself)

distinguishing physical Gentiles from physical Jews who are the chosen / elect / God's people in the physical. 

I want that to be perfectly clear I am not saying otherwise.  Whether believing or unbelieving the physical Jews

are God's people on Earth.

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Believers in the Jewish Messiah Jesus are God's people, chosen, elect of Heaven.

Both physical Jew and physical Gentile who believe in Jesus.

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Galatians 3:24–28 (AV)
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

This is obviously referring to spirituality for there are physical Jews and Gentiles and physical males and females in the Church.

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Okay?

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Ephesians 2 (AV)
1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

1 Corinthians 3:16 (AV)
16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

Does being a Christian make a Gentile born believer a physical Jew? Not in the least!

Now either the Church is equated (by the scriptures) with Spirit Israel, or Israel is ONLY physical.

And everyone will be at a loss to explain Romans 9:6 and Romans 2:28-29.

I do not believe our Jewish born brothers and sisters are willing to relegate All Israel to all physical Israel only.

Further, there is an antisemitic element among Gentile born believers who (whether they realize it or not) buy into at least a partial replacement theology when they reject the fact that the Church is Spirit Israel (typically from their own bias or dislikes). 

Jewish pride and Gentile prejudice...

There's more, but I am certain I have sufficiently worked up the ire and hate of those who are about to pummel me with hundred pound hail stones.

Shalom, JohnD.

No "pummelling" from me, either, bro'! There's a lot of truth in what you've said. It's vitally important, though, to recognize that the "Jewish Messiah" IS EQUAL TO the "Christ!" For some reason, many Gentile believers isolate themselves from the "Jewish Messiah," not realizing that He is ONE AND THE SAME "CHRIST" in "OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST!" How does it happen? I have no earthly idea.

They also tend to glamourize the term "Church!" There is absolutely NOTHING special about the word "church!" All it has EVER meant is a "called-out" (Greek: ekkleesia) group of people! There is NO "universal Church," NOR is there a "universal body of believers." That's PURE fiction! In point of fact, it, like the ekkleesia in Ephesus (Acts 19), is a LOCAL body - a town meeting - called for a particular task or purpose! What makes THIS local town meeting special is that it is an "ekkleesia kurioskon," a group of people "called-out of-the-LORD." Paul noted in 1 Corinthians that this group of people can ACT LIKE a body in that, when one member is hurting or in trouble, all the rest of the members hurt as well and rush to the aid of the one!

This is why I keep saying that it's extremely hard for a "finger" in Albuquerque to scratch a "nose" in Timbuktu! It was NEVER intended by Paul to be understood as a "universal Body!" He was talking about the "members" right there in Korinth!

We need to both define the terms "spirit" and "spiritual" correctly, and then use them correctly as per their definitions!

[Retrobyter]

18 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Retro,

This is a very interesting conversation we are having. I am really appreciating it. Also thank you for the correction. I said gates to the temple, when as you showed the gates are to the city. Now if we look at the 12 gates and the meaning of the tribe names in relation to the Lord we see this difference -

The Millennium

Joseph - He will add, increase.

Benjamin - at the right hand.

Dan - Judge

`Of the increase of His government and peace there will be no end, upon the throne of David and over His kingdom to order it and establish it with judgment and justice.` (Isa. 9: 7)

The Lord is at the Father`s right hand ruling over the throne of David. The increase of His government comes as more people are born and come into the kingdom. He will also be judging the nations in the millennium.

The New Jerusalem

Ephraim - doubly fruitful.

Benjamin - at the right hand.

Manasseh - forgiveness.

`He showed me a pure river of the water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding from the throne of God and of the Lamb. And in the middle of its street, and on either side of the river, was the tree of life, which bore 12 fruits, each tree yielding its fruit every month. And the leaves of the tree were for the health of the nations. And there shall be no more curse.` (Rev. 22: 1 - 3)

The Lord is at the Father`s right hand bringing forgiveness and fruitfulness to all.

Marilyn.

Shalom, Marilyn.

Okay, I'll ask again: WHERE are you getting that "Ephraim, Benjamin, and Manasseh" are listed for the New Jerusalem?! THEY ARE NOT THERE! You're getting this from the WRONG CHAPTER!

Also, I might add the question, "Where are you getting these definitions for the names?" THEY ARE NOT RIGHT! "Manasseh" or "Mnashsheh," does NOT mean "forgiveness"; it means "to cause to FORGET!" That's NOT the same thing!

Edited July 25, 2017 by Retrobyter
to add question about the names

[Marilyn C]

11 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Marilyn.

Okay, I'll ask again: WHERE are you getting that "Ephraim, Benjamin, and Manasseh" are listed for the New Jerusalem?! THEY ARE NOT THERE! You're getting this from the WRONG CHAPTER!

Also, I might add the question, "Where are you getting these definitions for the names?" THEY ARE NOT RIGHT! "Manasseh" or "Mnashsheh," does NOT mean "forgiveness"; it means "to cause to FORGET!" That's NOT the same thing!

Hi Retro,

Remember I did the gem stones further back on this thread. This is the grouping from there.

Christ at God`s Right Hand.

Chrysoprase – Manassah – forgiveness.

Jacinth – Ephraim – doubly fruitful.

Amethyst – Benjamin – at the right hand of the Father.

Christ the KingPriest, at the right hand of the Father, gives forgiveness & blessings.

 

And yes I realise that Manasseh means to cause to forget, which actually is God`s forgiveness.

Marilyn.

[Retrobyter]

3 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Retro,

Remember I did the gem stones further back on this thread. This is the grouping from there.

Christ at God`s Right Hand.

Chrysoprase – Manassah – forgiveness.

Jacinth – Ephraim – doubly fruitful.

Amethyst – Benjamin – at the right hand of the Father.

Christ the KingPriest, at the right hand of the Father, gives forgiveness & blessings.

 

And yes I realise that Manasseh means to cause to forget, which actually is God`s forgiveness.

Marilyn.

Shalom, Marilyn.

Sorry, but if you and I give in to such manipulation of the meaning of these names, then we could say ANYTHING our little ol' hearts want to say! We're not being true to God's Word! These are HEBREW names, stemming from HEBREW words and phrases. Unless you know Hebrew, how can you take such liberties ... with a clear conscience, that is?

[Marilyn C]

1 hour ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Marilyn.

Sorry, but if you and I give in to such manipulation of the meaning of these names, then we could say ANYTHING our little ol' hearts want to say! We're not being true to God's Word! These are HEBREW names, stemming from HEBREW words and phrases. Unless you know Hebrew, how can you take such liberties ... with a clear conscience, that is?

`Joseph called the name of the first-born Manasseh; "For God has made me forget all my toil and all my father`s house."

Manasseh - Heb. word M nashsheh, meaning causing to forget, from `nashah,` to forget, to remit, to remove.

`Whose soever  sins you remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins you retain, they are retained.` (John 20: 23)

forget - To cease to remember.

forgive - To pardon, to remit.

remit - To forgive.

You see they are related, Retro. When God talks about `ceasing to remember` in relation to our sins, then He is forgiving them.

`I will put my laws in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people......I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.` (Jer. 31: 33 & 34)

Marilyn.

[Marilyn C]

The Gates of the city represent access to the city and to what is with in. This gives us a picture of Christ working through the tribes of Israel, as the means of access to God`s wisdom & blessings within.

 

Christ`s Character and Offices at the Gates of the city in the Millennium. (Ez. 48: 30 - 35, the tribes,  Gen. 29: 32,  30: 1 – 24,  35: 18 the meanings. )

 

 

North : Christ the KingPriest.

Reuben – Firstborn, heir.

Judah – King, ruler.

Levi - Priest.

 

Christ the firstborn & heir, is the kingpriest.

 

East: Christ is the Judge.

Joseph - to add, increase.

Benjamin – at the right hand of the Father.

Dan - Judge.

 

Christ is the judge at the right hand of the Father. His government continues to increase.

 

South: Christ the Voice of God.

Simeon – Voice of God.

Issachar –Wisdom.

Zebulon – dwelling.

 

Christ the voice of God, dwells with His people ruling with wisdom.

 

 

West: Christ the Conqueror.

 

Gad – Righteousness & justice.

Asher - Blessing.

Naphtali – Conqueror.

 

Christ the conqueror rules with righteousness and justice giving blessings.

 

[Marilyn C]

The Gates of the city represent access to the city and to what is within. This gives us a picture of Christ working through the tribes of Israel, as the means of access to God`s wisdom & blessings within.

 

The prophet Isaiah was given a wonderful view of the New Jerusalem. He saw it with God`s light & glory upon it & that nations would come to the city for the gates would be opened continually, & the Lord would be their light & glory. (Isa. 60)

 

Christ`s Character and Offices at the Gates of the city in the New Jerusalem. (Ez. 48: 30 - 35, the tribes,  Gen. 29: 32,  30: 1 – 24,  35: 18 the meanings.  Rev. 21: 12 - 14, the order.)

 

East: Christ at the Right Hand of the Father.

Ephraim - doubly fruitful.

Benjamin – at the right hand of the Father.

Manasseh - forget, forgive.

 

Christ is at the right hand of the Father, bringing forgiveness and fruitfulness.

 

North : Christ the KingPriest.

Reuben – Firstborn, heir.

Judah – King, ruler.

Levi - Priest.

 

Christ the firstborn & heir, is the kingpriest.

 

South: Christ the Voice of God.

Simeon – Voice of God.

Issachar –Wisdom.

Zebulon – dwelling.

 

Christ the voice of God, dwells with His people ruling with wisdom.

 

West: Christ the Conqueror.

 

Gad – Righteousness & justice.

Asher - Blessing.

Naphtali – Conqueror.

 

Christ the conqueror rules with righteousness and justice giving blessings.

 

 

 

 

 

[JohnD]

12 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, JohnD.

No "pummelling" from me, either, bro'! There's a lot of truth in what you've said. It's vitally important, though, to recognize that the "Jewish Messiah" IS EQUAL TO the "Christ!" For some reason, many Gentile believers isolate themselves from the "Jewish Messiah," not realizing that He is ONE AND THE SAME "CHRIST" in "OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST!" How does it happen? I have no earthly idea.

They also tend to glamourize the term "Church!" There is absolutely NOTHING special about the word "church!" All it has EVER meant is a "called-out" (Greek: ekkleesia) group of people! There is NO "universal Church," NOR is there a "universal body of believers." That's PURE fiction! In point of fact, it, like the ekkleesia in Ephesus (Acts 19), is a LOCAL body - a town meeting - called for a particular task or purpose! What makes THIS local town meeting special is that it is an "ekkleesia kurioskon," a group of people "called-out of-the-LORD." Paul noted in 1 Corinthians that this group of people can ACT LIKE a body in that, when one member is hurting or in trouble, all the rest of the members hurt as well and rush to the aid of the one!

This is why I keep saying that it's extremely hard for a "finger" in Albuquerque to scratch a "nose" in Timbuktu! It was NEVER intended by Paul to be understood as a "universal Body!" He was talking about the "members" right there in Korinth!

We need to both define the terms "spirit" and "spiritual" correctly, and then use them correctly as per their definitions!

Church organism swallowed up by the Church Organization (from the time Constantine "legalized" Christianity).  Answers many points you bring up and I agree with most of them. There is a universal church organism of God consisting of priests (one and all) who believe in Christ Jesus the Jewish Messiah (one and the same). But the Church Organism (universal or otherwise) is of mankind ← the living filtration system of the devil (Matthew 16:13-23†). 

† who does MAN say that I am? blessed art thou, for flesh and blood hath NOT revealed it... get thee behind me SATAN for you have not the things of God but that of MAN.

Also John 8 wherein he calls those who oppose him of their father the devil.  Humanity is either of God or the devil there is no middle ground no "sitting this one out."

______________________________

The "called out" / assembly goes back in the  Old Testament to the ekklesia even under the Old Covenant. 

Thanks for not stoning me.

[JohnD]

13 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi JohnD,

I certainly wont `pummel` you, dear bro, neither will Retro. (Can`t see anyone else around) I agree with you. often it is overlooked as to the two aspects God has said concerning Israel. They were to be as the stars, and as the sand. One is on the earth and the other position is in the heavenlies. We know from God`s word that a certain group from the OT saints looked for a city...and they are waiting in the General Assembly for that city to go to its place, in the heavenlies, above the earth. Then there are those of Israel who will be on the earth, (as numerous as the sand of the seashore) and who will rule the nations of the world.

The eternal purposes of God are so wonderful, not a `big soup` of everyone in one place, but each in their own order as God has planned.

regards, Marilyn.

Blessings!

I believe the reference to the Abrahamic blessing sand by the sea and stars of the heavens also is key to unlocking prophecies about the future.

Revelation 13:1 (AV)
1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

 

 

[Retrobyter]

19 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

The Gates of the city represent access to the city and to what is within. This gives us a picture of Christ working through the tribes of Israel, as the means of access to God`s wisdom & blessings within.

 

The prophet Isaiah was given a wonderful view of the New Jerusalem. He saw it with God`s light & glory upon it & that nations would come to the city for the gates would be opened continually, & the Lord would be their light & glory. (Isa. 60)

 

Christ`s Character and Offices at the Gates of the city in the New Jerusalem. (Ez. 48: 30 - 35, the tribes,  Gen. 29: 32,  30: 1 – 24,  35: 18 the meanings.  Rev. 21: 12 - 14, the order.)

 

East: Christ at the Right Hand of the Father.

Ephraim - doubly fruitful.

Benjamin – at the right hand of the Father.

Manasseh - forget, forgive.

 

Christ is at the right hand of the Father, bringing forgiveness and fruitfulness.

 

North : Christ the KingPriest.

Reuben – Firstborn, heir.

Judah – King, ruler.

Levi - Priest.

 

Christ the firstborn & heir, is the kingpriest.

 

South: Christ the Voice of God.

Simeon – Voice of God.

Issachar –Wisdom.

Zebulon – dwelling.

 

Christ the voice of God, dwells with His people ruling with wisdom.

 

West: Christ the Conqueror.

 

Gad – Righteousness & justice.

Asher - Blessing.

Naphtali – Conqueror.

 

Christ the conqueror rules with righteousness and justice giving blessings. 

Shalom, Marilyn.

Repeating what you wrote before doesn't solve the problem. Let's look up the meaning of the names again. It's a sad story of two sisters vying for the affections of their husband. Poor Le'ah was NOT Ya`aqov's choice for his wife, and she SO desired to be loved by him. His treatment of her and her desperate desire to be loved fueled this conflict. Rachel was Ya`aqov's love -  his CHOICE for his wife, but God shut her uterus so she could not bear children. Meanwhile, Le'ah ended up providing Ya`aqov with over half of his children by herself, not counting the two her handmaid, Zilpah, bore for her! Rachel only had the two sons through her handmaid/surrogate, Bilhah, until Adonai finally opened her uterus. And then, to add insult to injury, Rachel dies in childbirth of her second son! Le'ah ended up raising her sister Rachel's children instead!

Genesis 29:31-30:24
31 Adonai saw that Le’ah was unloved, so he made her fertile, while Rachel remained childless. 32 Le’ah conceived and gave birth to a son, whom she named Re’uven [see, a son!], for she said, “It is because Adonai has seen how humiliated I have been, but now my husband will love me.” 33 She conceived again, gave birth to a son and said, “It is because Adonai has heard that I am unloved; therefore he has given me this son also.” So she named him Shim‘on [hearing]. 34 Once more she conceived and had a son; and she said, “Now this time my husband will be joined to me, because I have borne him three sons.” Therefore she named him Levi [joining]. 35 She conceived yet again, had a son and said, “This time I will praise Adonai”; therefore she named him Y’hudah [praise]. Then she stopped having children. 

30:1 When Rachel saw that she was not bearing children for Ya‘akov, she envied her sister and said to Ya‘akov, “Give me children, or I will die!” 2 This made Ya‘akov angry at Rachel; he answered, “Am I in God’s place? He’s the one who is denying you children.” 3 She said, “Here is my maid Bilhah. Go, sleep with her, and let her give birth to a child that will be laid on my knees, so that through her I too can build a family.” 4 So she gave him Bilhah her slave-girl as his wife, and Ya‘akov went in and slept with her. 5 Bilhah conceived and bore Ya‘akov a son. 6 Rachel said, “God has judged in my favor; indeed he has heard me and given me a son.” Therefore she called him Dan [he judged]. 
7 Bilhah Rachel’s slave-girl conceived again and bore Ya‘akov a second son. 8 Rachel said, “I have wrestled mightily with my sister and won,” and called him Naftali [my wrestling]. 

9 When Le’ah saw that she had stopped having children, she took Zilpah her slave-girl and gave her to Ya‘akov as his wife. 10 Zilpah Le’ah’s slave-girl bore Ya‘akov a son; 11 and Le’ah said, “Good fortune has come,” calling him Gad [good fortune]. 
12 Zilpah Le’ah’s slave-girl bore Ya‘akov a second son; 13 and Le’ah said, “How happy I am! Women will say I am happy!” and called him Asher [happy].

(iv)  14 During the wheat harvest season Re’uven went and found mandrakes in the field and brought them to his mother Le’ah. Rachel said to Le’ah, “Please give me some of your son’s mandrakes [so that I can be fertile].” 15 She answered, “Isn’t it enough that you have taken away my husband? Do you have to take my son’s mandrakes too?” Rachel said, “Very well; in exchange for your son’s mandrakes, sleep with him tonight.” 16 When Ya‘akov came in from the field in the evening, Le’ah went out to meet him and said, “You have to come and sleep with me, because I’ve hired you with my son’s mandrakes.” So Ya‘akov slept with her that night. 17 God listened to Le’ah, and she conceived and bore Ya‘akov a fifth son. 18 Le’ah said, “God has given me my hire, because I gave my slave-girl to my husband.” So she called him Yissakhar [hire, reward]. 
19 Le’ah conceived again and bore a sixth son to Ya‘akov. 20 Le’ah said, “God has given me a wonderful gift. Now at last my husband will live with me, since I have borne him six sons.” And she called him Z’vulun [living together]. 
21 After this, she gave birth to a daughter and named her Dinah [controversy over rights]. 

22 Then God took note of Rachel, heeded her prayer and made her fertile. 23 She conceived, had a son and said, “God has taken away my disgrace.” 24 She called him Yosef [may he add], saying, “May Adonai add to me another son.” 
CJB

Genesis 35:16-20
16 Then they traveled on from Beit-El, and while there was still some distance to go before arriving in Efrat, Rachel went into labor, and she had great difficulty with it. 17 While she was undergoing this hard labor, the midwife said to her, “Don’t worry, this is also a son for you.” 18 But she died in childbirth. As she was dying she named her son Ben-Oni [son of my grief], but his father called him Binyamin [son of the right hand, son of the south]. 19 So Rachel died and was buried on the way to Efrat (that is, Beit-Lechem). 20 Ya‘akov set up a standing-stone on her grave; it is the standing-stone of Rachel’s grave to this day. 
CJB

Genesis 41:50-52
50 Two sons were born to Yosef before the year of famine came; Osnat the daughter of Poti-Fera priest of On bore them to him. 51 Yosef called the firstborn M’nasheh [causing to forget], “Because God has caused me to forget all the troubles I suffered at the hands of my family.” 52 The second he called Efrayim [fruit], “For God has made me fruitful in the land of my misfortune.”
CJB

The end of the story is that, while Rachel has a tomb of honor near Beit-Lechem, it was LE`AH who was buried by Ya`aqov/Israel as his wife and the mother of his children in the cave where his ancestors were buried:

Genesis 49:29-32
29 Then he charged them as follows: “I am to be gathered to my people. Bury me with my ancestors in the cave that is in the field of ‘Efron the Hitti, 30 the cave in the field of Makhpelah, by Mamre, in the land of Kena‘an, which Avraham bought together with the field from ‘Efron the Hitti as a burial-place belonging to him —  31 there they buried Avraham and his wife Sarah, there they buried Yitz’chak and his wife Rivkah, and there I buried Le’ah —  32 the field and the cave in it, which was purchased from the sons of Het.” 
CJB

He loved her in the end after all.

These are the names and meanings of the sons (and daughter) of Israel. This history describes WHY these boys were named this way, and their names were meant to remind their family of the history in how they were named!

You cannot change the meaning of these names to suit your fabrication!

Edited July 26, 2017 by Retrobyter
to add a few more thoughts